Blue weimaraners

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:38 pm

Go here and you should be able to find some help with a good stud dog....

http://www.bwcoa.com/

I wonder if the the Black GSP''s have there own club yet or not?

legallyblonde · Post by **legallyblonde** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:26 pm

They don't need their own club, they're recognized by pretty much every other registry besides AKC

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:49 pm

legallyblonde wrote:They don't need their own club, they're recognized by pretty much every other registry besides AKC

AKC recognizes black. It's a color choice on the registration papers. The GSPCA does not allow it in Conformation. I don't belong to GSPCA or participate in many AKC events from a breed standpoint. My AKC event involvement is with Irish setters and my GSPs run mostly in NBHA. I believe we need more unity in the dog fancy, regardless of venue, and petty sniping over color or registry or venue defeats that goal. I really don't care if you want to dye a Weim purple and paint orange roses on its butt. If you want to come to a performance event hosted by my club, you will be welcome if you are there for the promotion of the sport and the good of the dog.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:11 pm

ymepointer wrote:Go here and you should be able to find some help with a good stud dog....

http://www.bwcoa.com/

I wonder if the the Black GSP''s have there own club yet or not?

And I do believe that you will also find that there is a link to a genetic study showing that the Blue Weimaraner is NOT a purebred Weim. Most likely Cesar von Gaiburg (the original blue Weimaraner) was a doberman/Weim cross. The breeder of Cesar also bred Dobes.......

WHY would you WANT to breed a dog with a DQ?????? What does this bitch have that is so outstanding that you think she should be bred????? THere isn't a parent club in the world that accepts the Blue Weimaraner.

The breeding of dogs should be to BETTER the breed NOT just to produce more puppies!!! Do you even know the full pedigree of your bitch? Do you know what "hidden" health issues lurk in there?? The Weim breed has issues with HOD and thyroid disorders amongst other things. Without your knowing what's in there and approaching anyone who has a stud that will breed to your bitch you could be producing a disaster litter. Are you prepared to take back any pups that the owners can't keep throughout the life of the dog??

You approached me asking for frozen semen from my stud dog and you have no clue as to who he was, what his field ability was, or what health issues are there!

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:30 pm

I am trying to follow this.
1) Blue Wiem can be registered AKC, but not compete in the show ring. It can compete in FT.
2) Blue color does not relate to a specific health issue or conformation issue.
3) Dog hunts well, but is not tested in FT.
4) Owner wants to breed the dog.

No genetic reason to not breed the dog. Color is a matter of taste, but performance rocks. Without FT, its just a good dog with no record of excellence. Lots of good dogs available, many in rescue. I just looked up 2 at my local Wiem rescue. The show contingent will probably not be looking for these pups, with a blue mother. Without some sort of trial record, only way to see how good the parents hunt is to spend an afternoon with the owner in a big field. Your market for these pups is not very big. Why would a quality stud owner want to risk his reputation breeding with a known DQ female.

If you don't have a sure market, why put yourself in the position of having to dump pups at the local rescue or standing in front of Wally World with a box of pups. It does happen, and rescues are starting to charge drop off fees and use cameras for plate numbers of dumpers. If you can get deposits, go for it. But try to have money in hand before introducing the stud to the female. I don't believe there is much profit in raising "good" dogs. Lot of expenses to do it right, and you probably need some evidence of excellence to get a good price for a pup.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:44 pm

ACooper wrote:I probably misspoke when I said "make money and be profitable" I probably should have said not lose money.

you were correct the first time, any non profit wants to make money and be profitable... did you not see my posts above? I am a accounting major and we have to take a specific class on not-for-profit accounting. Just think... you think a animal shelter is going to turn down any donations because they have to net zero, or because they have a specific amount of money they can make? no. ANY business should be profitable. Non profit or no. a non-profit just does not distribute its money to outside shareholders, if there are any. They can keep positive bank accounts for anything they want.... expansion, hiring...ect, as long as it stays within the business. This is because a lot of the money received for most non-profits is donations. Just think... how would it be if you donated to a not for profit organization, then found out they used money for other things then the organization you donated to? I know the AKC is different, but the concept is the same. When you register a dog, you are paying for the services that you get from the AKC for registration... IE dog shows, agility, hunt tests, field trials... they have (or had) a huge dog genome project they were doing, all that money you use to register dogs stays within AKC to give you the benefits of those services. If they "just did not lose money" with inflation over the years they would slowly be able to have less services, and the sponsoring or creation of new events would be impossible. I don't understand why people think that non-profit means that they cant make any money at the end of the year.

sfox · Post by **sfox** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:26 pm

I have a 4 year old male blue Weimaraner that I hunt chukars with almost every day of the season. I am self-employed and fall/winter is my slow season. We are 20 minutes from some of the country's best chukar hunting...to the north, south, and east. The dog is an awesome hunting dog...he got Prize II in UT last year and a Prize III this year. I reran him in UT as I wanted to show he could have perfect scores in waterwork (which he had in the field portion) and that last year's scores were from my training/testing problems, not his. He did get perfect scores in waterwork, but he now knows that planted pen-raised birds are perfect for scooping and I didn't have the time or passion to try to train him to respect the planted birds. So we did bad on the field portion and splendid on water, still passed. But on wild chukars, where it matters, he's fantastic.

In terms of color as a DQ for conformation shows, I could care less. If a show dog can do what my blue does, day after day, on rocky terrain, gaining and losing a thousand feet in elevation, in snow and/or freezing winds, finding and holding birds, etc...good on it. But as far as AKC shows and the associated breed clubs being necessary to determine a dog with conformation that is 'acceptable/the best' for breeding all one has to do is look at the dogs that are put up for BIS and other titles. Look over time and look at current placements, in Weims there are different types..some have a bloated pigeon chest and others are flat in the front...both types are show champions. Given the marked difference in conformation between these two types, how can shows possibly be discriminating among the best conformation that allows the dog to do what it was originally bred to do? Conformation shows are about finely sorting already basically well-put-together dogs with various fads/preferences having their day in the spotlight.

I care about performance. Check out the book "The Border Collie Wars." Long before kennel clubs and their affiliated breed clubs were in existence, performance was what mattered. I am of the opinion that the type of hunting I do is a perfect natural sorting mechanism for determining whether a dog is suitable for breeding. Any dog that has no marked conformation faults and can hold up with intensity, drive, and stamina for 90 days of Nevada chukar hunting has more to recommend it than merely color. This dog does what the breed was meant to do and I certainly don't need the breed club's stamp of approval. If I saw those folks out in the field actually hunting wild birds, not just training, not just JH titles, and not just hunting on preserves, then I would have more respect for them. Producing a facsimile of what the dog was 'bred to do' is just that- empty and meaningless. The type of dog I have would not have been a good pet Weim... probably a good reason to have splits in breeds between show and field lines. If someone wants a pet dog, field lines are not the best choice.

So I obviously fall into the camp that color is just one facet of a breed and that people can and do have strong preferences for one color or the other. If color is to be used as the means to determine whether or not a dog has been outcrossed and is no longer 'pure' perhaps a little research into the deleterious effects of closed registry breedings is warranted... see the Dalmation and Pointer outcross controversy. Existing dog breeds were developed from different 'breeds/types' of dogs. It's a pity that bringing in some outside blood to increase vigor, when necessary, is viewed as something so apocalyptic

Quinton Tanner · Post by **Quinton Tanner** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:00 am

Yes I did ask about AI and yes I too am a responsible dog owner! I would have asked all those important questions once I found a stud dog and I am awfully sorry my wanting to breed my great hunting dog irritates some people. What the huge huge problem that I keep seeing and hearing is all about a club that doesn't want to taint the standards that they have for the breed, I get that I really do! Nobody is trying to destroy the "Silver or Gray Weimaraner breed" I specified "Blue" and I still stand by "Blue"! I am not making this a personal battle and I will not lower myself to a name calling personal assault on you for your opinion on any of this. I just had some people who wanted pups from a "bleep" good bird dog and if I have my way they will get there wish. I am going to do every thing in my power to uphold the bird dog training rules that I have done since I was a young man and I will do my best to make sure none of those pups will receive anything less than what I would give them if they were mine. I also guarantee you that they will not end up in a shelter because of some "color standard" that a club has determined makes the dog worthless! The "Gray Ghost" is forever protected from my
"Smokin' Blue Bird Dog"! This I promise the WCA!

I wish each and everyone of you a wonderful holiday season. I would like to thank all of you that actually helped me in my endeavor and I also would like you to know that I will soon be a new member of the " Blue Weimaraner Club of America"

Quinton Tanner

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:01 pm

QT,
The German Breed Wardens set the Weimar standards not AKC, remember Blues are prize Weimar animals in Germany, in fact after Sam won the Fort Hood open invitational the 2nd time, part of the prize he won was a real fully trained imported German Weimar. The German Breed Warden decided the best dog at that time was a Blue female named Greta, and shipped her to Ft Hood as part of my prize winnings. The dog was just incredible, no matter what the AKC happened to except or reject, the German Weimar Club and its Breed Warden sets the actual breed standard for the Weimaraner Dogs.
RGD/Dave

Sam & Greta in 1970 Ft Hood, Texas

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:33 pm

Not weighing in on the Blue Weim debate, but just to clarify, the German Weim club does not accept the color blue.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:59 pm

Yeah. About the German Club thing. Blue is not an accepted color there, or anywhere else in the entire world.
From the FCI (German) Breed Standard

ELIMINATING FAULTS :
..........
• Colour other than gray.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:44 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:QT,
The German Breed Wardens set the Weimar standards not AKC, remember Blues are prize Weimar animals in Germany, in fact after Sam won the Fort Hood open invitational the 2nd time, part of the prize he won was a real fully trained imported German Weimar. The German Breed Warden decided the best dog at that time was a Blue female named Greta, and shipped her to Ft Hood as part of my prize winnings. The dog was just incredible, no matter what the AKC happened to except or reject, the German Weimar Club and its Breed Warden sets the actual breed standard for the Weimaraner Dogs.
RGD/Dave

Sam & Greta in 1970 Ft Hood, Texas

I think you are confused again or at least mislead as to what a blue wiem really is in Germany as well as here. They are about the same as a Black and Tan Ryman bred English Setter.

Ezzy

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:37 pm

Here is some good read http://blueweimaraner.com/tell.html

To this day it is still uncertain where Tell got his blue color. Everything you hear is speculation or hearsay. It was so long ago that it shouldn't matter today.

As far as I am concerned, I could care less about breeding to a show standard color. I do not show my dogs...only hunt and field trial. Color does not make a dog. If you are looking to make a buck off of the blue color breeding then don't do it. But if you really think your dog is that great, as far as everything goes except color, then by all means do what you want.

There are black GSPs I have seen that can out hunt or run circles around liver ones or roan or white ones. I've seen a few that are kicking butt in field trials. But black is a dq in the show ring. Really? Who cares unless you show your dog.

Just my 2 cents.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:20 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:Not weighing in on the Blue Weim debate, but just to clarify, the German Weim club does not accept the color blue.

+1

Ryman, what was Sam's registered name?

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:51 am

My thoughts on Blues here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... blues.html

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:30 am

Craig,
PLEEEAAASE tell me you've written something similar in your blog concerning Black Shorthairs! Good and humorous read.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:05 am

Hmmm..that's a good idea.

I wrote about black shorthairs in my book and explore the whole "Arkwright Pointer" angle (hint: Arkwright Pointer was simply a politically correct term for a term the Germans simply could not bring themselves to use...ENGLISH Pointer...).

I will give it some thought and post something soon about the whole history of black in all pointing dogs and why it has always been a controversial color (hint: breeders of continental gundogs saw it as proof of "evil" crosses to "foreign" ie: english dogs. But in reality, their lines absolutely overflowed with less obvious liver or orange or yellow etc. english blood).

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:52 am

chiendog wrote:Hmmm..that's a good idea.

I wrote about black shorthairs in my book and explore the whole "Arkwright Pointer" angle (hint: Arkwright Pointer was simply a politically correct term for a term the Germans simply could not bring themselves to use...ENGLISH Pointer...).

I will give it some thought and post something soon about the whole history of black in all pointing dogs and why it has always been a controversial color (hint: breeders of continental gundogs saw it as proof of "evil" crosses to "foreign" ie: english dogs. But in reality, their lines absolutely overflowed with less obvious liver or orange or yellow etc. english blood).

Excuse me?

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:00 pm

Stay tuned, I will try to expand on the issue in my blog.

Bottom line: black coats have always been somewhat controversial in pointing dog breeds and continue to be so in some today ("blue" weims, black GSPs, GWPs).

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:23 pm

chiendog wrote:Stay tuned, I will try to expand on the issue in my blog.

Bottom line: black coats have always been somewhat controversial in pointing dog breeds and continue to be so in some today ("blue" weims, black GSPs, GWPs).

You forgot the Brittany

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:24 pm

chiendog wrote:Stay tuned, I will try to expand on the issue in my blog.

Bottom line: black coats have always been somewhat controversial in pointing dog breeds and continue to be so in some today ("blue" weims, black GSPs, GWPs).

They are controversial when someone makes them that way and to broadbrush the development of breeds for the sake of promoting your book is a disservice to the sport. Breeds were developed by type long before the concept of breed studbooks was conceived. The Hounds of St. Hubert's were black and many Continental versatiles and hounds claim them in their heritage.

I don't like black dogs, unless they are tans, but I resent the heck out of anyone implying that they are some kind of deviant strain when found in certain breeds. The color has been so maligned over the ages that it has developed into a cultural prejudice.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:08 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: I don't like black dogs, unless they are tans, but I resent the heck out of anyone implying that they are some kind of deviant strain when found in certain breeds. The color has been so maligned over the ages that it has developed into a cultural prejudice.

Genetically it's impossible to get a Blue Weim when breeding two greys so there has to be something else in the woodpile....

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:45 pm

Cajun, unless you have been living under a rock there is no way you can say black in GWPs and GSP's has not been a controversial issue! Whether you be "fore" or "agin" makes no difference, it's a debate that has been going on in those breeds (here in the US) for a loooooooooooong time.

There will always be Blue Weim supporters, there will always be Blue un-supporters (hmmmm, not sure that is a word?) and never the tween shall meet.

One thing that I find interesting is Pointer guys who can't understand the arguments, but give them a dog with a lot of color on it.... and most dislike it! Think about it, most trial pointers are mostly white with maybe a colored head, maybe a body patch. Do heavily ticked pointers work different? Maybe so. Don't know. But don't see them.
Fuzz

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:12 pm

They are controversial when someone makes them that way and to broadbrush the development of breeds for the sake of promoting your book is a disservice to the sport.

I really don't quite understand this statement but my intention was certainly not to "broadbrush" the development of any breeds or breeds. And while I do hope that my presence on the net promotes my book, my main reason for posting in these forums is to share the information I have gathered and expand on it further in reply to specific questions... for free. If that is a disservice to the "sport", then so be it.

Breeds were developed by type long before the concept of breed studbooks was conceived. The Hounds of St. Hubert's were black and many Continental versatiles and hounds claim them in their heritage.

Again, I don't quite understand the point of this statement, but yes, there were types of dogs long before there were official breeds. All of the continental pointing breeds trace back to a sort of proto-typical pointing dog that evolved in the Pyrenées mountain region. Those dogs came in all colors including black. They still do. The Pachon Navarro...arguably the grand daddy of them all, comes in black ...and every other color (see: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... varro.html for more info and photos of the breed).

IThe color has been so maligned over the ages that it has developed into a cultural prejudice.

And THAT is the exact point I wished to make! I'm not here to create any controversy, my post was an attempt to report on a controversy that you, in your own post, admit has been going on for "ages". And I also wanted to point out some of the underlying reasons that black "developed into a cultural prejudice".

In France and Germany -- where the vast majority of all pointing dog breeds come from -- one of the most important reasons black became a "cultural prejudice" as you say, was that fact that many breeders were vehemently anti-English and, for some reason believed that black in a dog's coat indicated the presence of English blood. Any reading of the historical literature will clearly reveal the battles that were waged over that very issue. Entire breeds were split into two over it (black German Longhaired Pointers became Large Munsterlanders, Picardy Spaniels with black coats became Blue Picardies) and coded language such as the term "Arkwright Pointer" was adopted when black was admitted into some breeds. Today the black (blue) debate in Weims revolves around a similar issue: the black coat is seen as proof of cross breeding (although in the Weim's case the suspect is not English..it is the Doberman)

Anyway, I don't really understand your objections to my answering questions/comments directed at me and/or my posting opinions based on the 12 years of research that went into my book. I believe that I have some valuable information to share, for free, with the members of this forum. But if you consider my participation here as nothing more than an attempt to sell a book, just use the "ignore" function on your user control panel.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:41 pm

fuzznut wrote:Cajun, unless you have been living under a rock there is no way you can say black in GWPs and GSP's has not been a controversial issue! Whether you be "fore" or "agin" makes no difference, it's a debate that has been going on in those breeds (here in the US) for a loooooooooooong time.

There will always be Blue Weim supporters, there will always be Blue un-supporters (hmmmm, not sure that is a word?) and never the tween shall meet.

One thing that I find interesting is Pointer guys who can't understand the arguments, but give them a dog with a lot of color on it.... and most dislike it! Think about it, most trial pointers are mostly white with maybe a colored head, maybe a body patch. Do heavily ticked pointers work different? Maybe so. Don't know. But don't see them.
Fuzz

It's a chunk of asphalt, thank you. We're all about the oil bidness here.

Black in GSPs is documented and the Arkwright statement was flippant. As far as blue Weims, it seems kind of obvious where the color came from since tan isn't a factor. If I were going to slip a ringer into the breed, I would choose the closest I could find structurally, and in blue or black self, that's a Dane.

I think it's defeating to dwell on sensational gossip from decades past. The sport is suffering greatly and needs dedicated people to provide unity and continuity. Fussing until everyone is black and blue won't accomplish forward locomotion.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:53 pm

FYI http://justweimaraners.com/2010/09/gene ... imaraners/

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:16 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:FYI http://justweimaraners.com/2010/09/gene ... imaraners/

But what is the cross? Somewhere, Dobermans were mentioned, but that would bring tan into the equation.

I am not a fan of sub rosa vanity crossbreeding, for the record, but such practices, when documented for a positive purpose, are not always a bad idea. I do support the LUA Dalmatians, considering the lethal nature of the gene involved.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:24 pm

fuzznut wrote:Cajun, unless you have been living under a rock there is no way you can say black in GWPs and GSP's has not been a controversial issue! Whether you be "fore" or "agin" makes no difference, it's a debate that has been going on in those breeds (here in the US) for a loooooooooooong time.

There will always be Blue Weim supporters, there will always be Blue un-supporters (hmmmm, not sure that is a word?) and never the tween shall meet.

One thing that I find interesting is Pointer guys who can't understand the arguments, but give them a dog with a lot of color on it.... and most dislike it! Think about it, most trial pointers are mostly white with maybe a colored head, maybe a body patch. Do heavily ticked pointers work different? Maybe so. Don't know. But don't see them.
Fuzz

The one in my avatar is ticked. She works just as well as anything she has been put down with so far. I don't see a difference.

Joe

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:32 pm

What do you expect in the land of the personal statement, re-invention and the marketing edge

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:12 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
CherrystoneWeims wrote:FYI http://justweimaraners.com/2010/09/gene ... imaraners/
But what is the cross? Somewhere, Dobermans were mentioned, but that would bring tan into the equation.

I am not a fan of sub rosa vanity crossbreeding, for the record, but such practices, when documented for a positive purpose, are not always a bad idea. I do support the LUA Dalmatians, considering the lethal nature of the gene involved.

Dobe most likely as the breeder of Tell also bred Dobes. There is also a recessive gene for Dobe marks (tan points) in Weims.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:32 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
CherrystoneWeims wrote:FYI http://justweimaraners.com/2010/09/gene ... imaraners/
But what is the cross? Somewhere, Dobermans were mentioned, but that would bring tan into the equation.

I am not a fan of sub rosa vanity crossbreeding, for the record, but such practices, when documented for a positive purpose, are not always a bad idea. I do support the LUA Dalmatians, considering the lethal nature of the gene involved.

Dobe most likely as the breeder of Tell also bred Weims. There is also a recessive gene for Dobe marks (tan points) in Weims.

Gotcha....I've not seen the tan marking issue in Weims discussed the way it has been in GSPs, but it makes sense that the recessive with modifier tan pattern could be lost for generations because it appears at birth.

I have not been around too many Weims, a few clients only. We have just recently gotten our first as a behavior modification client. She's a big girl and learns seemingly more quickly, but tends to not generalize as well as my GSPs. My training assistance dog is totally enamoured of her.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:54 pm

Ah yes Weims can have a tendency to not do so well when brought into a kennel situation. I personally think it's a creation of both genetics and owner.

The tan points in Weims most likely come from the hound that was used in the creation of the breed just like the Dobe goes back to the same hound. I think it is the St. Hubertus.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:04 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Ah yes Weims can have a tendency to not do so well when brought into a kennel situation. I personally think it's a creation of both genetics and owner.

The tan points in Weims most likely come from the hound that was used in the creation of the breed just like the Dobe goes back to the same hound. I think it is the St. Hubertus.

Not a kennel, short sessions in retail space. Gracie learned in three reps not to jump on me or her "mother." Then, we had to repeat the lesson with every new person. She's a chow hound, though, so maybe she worked us for three treats per new person.

I have always thought the St. Hubert's were coal black, but who knows? Legends are always fun additions to fact.

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:49 pm

chiendog wrote:Hmmm..that's a good idea.

I wrote about black shorthairs in my book and explore the whole "Arkwright Pointer" angle (hint: Arkwright Pointer was simply a politically correct term for a term the Germans simply could not bring themselves to use...ENGLISH Pointer...).

I will give it some thought and post something soon about the whole history of black in all pointing dogs and why it has always been a controversial color (hint: breeders of continental gundogs saw it as proof of "evil" crosses to "foreign" ie: english dogs. But in reality, their lines absolutely overflowed with less obvious liver or orange or yellow etc. english blood).

Note: It has been said, that William Arkwright took his Pointers from England and immigrated to Scandinavia to keep his strain pure. As the English were using more and more Foxhounds and Greyhounds to develop their Pointer...I think it is wrong to say That the Arkwright was a English Pointer.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:54 pm

rschmeider wrote:
chiendog wrote:Hmmm..that's a good idea.

I wrote about black shorthairs in my book and explore the whole "Arkwright Pointer" angle (hint: Arkwright Pointer was simply a politically correct term for a term the Germans simply could not bring themselves to use...ENGLISH Pointer...).

I will give it some thought and post something soon about the whole history of black in all pointing dogs and why it has always been a controversial color (hint: breeders of continental gundogs saw it as proof of "evil" crosses to "foreign" ie: english dogs. But in reality, their lines absolutely overflowed with less obvious liver or orange or yellow etc. english blood).
Note: It has been said, that William Arkwright took his Pointers from England and immigrated to Scandinavia to keep his strain pure. As the English were using more and more Foxhounds and Greyhounds to develop their Pointer...I think it is wrong to say That the Arkwright was a English Pointer.

Thank you. A much better way of making my point. Calmer heads prevail, sir.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:41 pm

...I think it is wrong to say That the Arkwright was a English Pointer.

At no point does Arkwright, or anyone else I can find in the English literature of the day refer to his dogs as "Arkwright Pointers". Arkwright bred Pointers some of which had black coats. His lines came from Scotland and England. He called them Pointers. Period. And since he also wrote what is arguably the greatest book ever written on the Pointer...a book you can read in its entirety on-line for free, you don't have to take my word for it. You will see that he wrote a lot about black Pointers and mentions the ancestries of some of the dogs he bred.

Personally, I believe that the term "Arkwright Pointer" was used as a politically correct term in Germany at a time when political tensions were running high. A similar situation occurred in the US and the UK around the same time when the name "German Shepherd" was changed to the more politically correct Alsasian Shepard or Alsasian.

Here is a direct link to Arkwright's book on-line: http://www.archive.org/stream/pointerhi ... 7/mode/2up

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:19 pm

chiendog wrote:
...I think it is wrong to say That the Arkwright was a English Pointer.
At no point does Arkwright, or anyone else I can find in the English literature of the day refer to his dogs as "Arkwright Pointers". Arkwright bred Pointers some of which had black coats. His lines came from Scotland and England. He called them Pointers. Period. And since he also wrote what is arguably the greatest book ever written on the Pointer...a book you can read in its entirety on-line for free, you don't have to take my word for it. You will see that he wrote a lot about black Pointers and mentions the ancestries of some of the dogs he bred.

Personally, I believe that the term "Arkwright Pointer" was used as a politically correct term in Germany at a time when political tensions were running high. A similar situation occurred in the US and the UK around the same time when the name "German Shepherd" was changed to the more politically correct Alsasian Shepard or Alsasian.

Here is a direct link to Arkwright's book on-line: http://www.archive.org/stream/pointerhi ... 7/mode/2up

Would those be anything like Alsatians? Really, do you think the Brothers called their dogs St. Bernards? No, that name was applied by others.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:43 pm

Really, do you think the Brothers called their dogs St. Bernards? No, that name was applied by others.

Just like the name "Arkwright Pointers". It was applied by others...namely German breeders who crossed black Pointers into some Kurzhaar lines (they also created the name "Prussian Shorthair" for the resulting crosses).

As for Alsatians: at the conclusion of World War I, it was believed that the inclusion of the word "German" would harm the breed's popularity,[12] due to the anti-German sentiment of the era.[13] The breed was officially renamed by the UK Kennel Club to "Alsatian Wolf Dog"[12] which was also adopted by many other international kennel clubs. Eventually, the appendage "wolf dog" was dropped.[12] The name Alsatian remained for five decades,[12] until 1977, when successful campaigns by dog enthusiasts pressured the British kennel clubs to allow the breed to be registered again as German Shepherd Dogs.[2] The word "Alsatian" still appeared in parentheses as part of the formal breed name and was only removed in 2010.[14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd_Dog#Name

My apologies to the thread starter for veering so far off the Blue Weim topic.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:38 pm

chiendog wrote:
Really, do you think the Brothers called their dogs St. Bernards? No, that name was applied by others.
Just like the name "Arkwright Pointers". It was applied by others...namely German breeders who crossed black Pointers into some Kurzhaar lines (they also created the name "Prussian Shorthair" for the resulting crosses).

As for Alsatians: at the conclusion of World War I, it was believed that the inclusion of the word "German" would harm the breed's popularity,[12] due to the anti-German sentiment of the era.[13] The breed was officially renamed by the UK Kennel Club to "Alsatian Wolf Dog"[12] which was also adopted by many other international kennel clubs. Eventually, the appendage "wolf dog" was dropped.[12] The name Alsatian remained for five decades,[12] until 1977, when successful campaigns by dog enthusiasts pressured the British kennel clubs to allow the breed to be registered again as German Shepherd Dogs.[2] The word "Alsatian" still appeared in parentheses as part of the formal breed name and was only removed in 2010.[14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd_Dog#Name

My apologies to the thread starter for veering so far off the Blue Weim topic.

Some times you have to when someone else takes it that way. But it is time to get back on topic or we will close it.

Ezzy

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:23 pm

chiendog wrote:
...I think it is wrong to say That the Arkwright was a English Pointer.
At no point does Arkwright, or anyone else I can find in the English literature of the day refer to his dogs as "Arkwright Pointers". Arkwright bred Pointers some of which had black coats. His lines came from Scotland and England. He called them Pointers. Period. And since he also wrote what is arguably the greatest book ever written on the Pointer...a book you can read in its entirety on-line for free, you don't have to take my word for it. You will see that he wrote a lot about black Pointers and mentions the ancestries of some of the dogs he bred.

Personally, I believe that the term "Arkwright Pointer" was used as a politically correct term in Germany at a time when political tensions were running high. A similar situation occurred in the US and the UK around the same time when the name "German Shepherd" was changed to the more politically correct Alsatian Shepard or Alsatian.

Here is a direct link to Arkwright's book on-line: http://www.archive.org/stream/pointerhi ... 7/mode/2up

Pg. 129 second paragraph is pretty interesting. ...thank's for the info.

NotADogSnob · Post by **NotADogSnob** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:35 am

two blue weims can produce silver weims.

therefore, a silver weim may also have some of this doberman lineage, as well.

Blues were allowed under the breed standard from about 1947 something until 1970 when it became a DQ'able trait.

pay attention to the 1:15 to 1:40 mark in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxM2qEZ ... re=related

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:49 pm

pay attention to the 1:15 to 1:40 mark in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxM2qEZ ... re=related

Wow, I wish I could have those 10 minutes of my life back. That was mind numbingly bad.

eebstein · Post by **eebstein** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:43 pm

I don't own a Weim but would like to throw in my two cents in on this one. I will start off by saying that I love pure bred dogs and love the large variety of hunitng dog breeds. I honestly wish I could own one of each in my life time.

As to the Weim debate, every single dog breed is a mix of other breeds to build "a better mouse trap". Most of this cross breading happened 100 years ago but many various breeders have secretly, under the table, infused foreign blood into various breeds, even in recent years. It happens, breeds evolve. I do agree having pure dog breeds is a Good thing but at this point in time it has been freaking 65 freaking YEARS since the crossbreeding happened with CÄSAR VON GAIBERG. Its only been 51 years of history with no blues(1886 when Weims were accepted as a separate breed until 1947 when the Blue popped up). That means there have been blues in the breed longer than there have been no blues. No doubt at this point many many many of the Weims that are Grey also carry CÄSAR VON GAIBERG blood in their veins as well. His offspring are no doubt all over the place both blue and grey. Its over, its done, its finished, the battle lost. His blood is in the viens of too many Weims to cut it off, even if blues are a DQ his blood WILL NOT GO away since many greys have it too and its impossible to cut all those off.

Why not just move on and focus on bettering the breed by breeding good hunting Weims either blue or grey. This arguing about something that happened 65 YEARS ago, that cannot be undone, is totally silly at this point in time.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:44 pm

eebstein wrote:I don't own a Weim but would like to throw in my two cents in on this one. I will start off by saying that I love pure bred dogs and love the large variety of hunitng dog breds. I honestly wish I could own one of each in my life time.

As to the Weim debat, every single dog breed is a mix of other breeds to build "a better mouse trap". Most of this cross breading happened 100 years ago but many various breeders have secretly, under the table, infused foreign blood into various breeds, even in recent years. It happens, breeds evolve. I do agree having pure dog breeds is a Good thing but at this point in time it has been freaking 65 freaking YEARS since the crossbreeding happened with CÄSAR VON GAIBERG. Its only been 51 years of history with no blues(1986 accepted as separate breed). That means there have been blues in the breed longer than there have been no blues. No doubt at this point many many many of the Weims that are Grey also carry CÄSAR VON GAIBERG blood in their veins as well. His offspring are no doubt all over the place both blue and grey. Its over, its done, its finished, the battle lost. His blood is in the viens of too many Weims to cut it off, even if blues are a DQ his blood WILL NOT GO away since many greys have it too and its impossible to cut all thos off.

Why not just move on and focus on bettering the breed by breeding good hunting Weims either blue or grey. This arguing about something that happened 65 YEARS ago, that cannot be undone, is totally silly at this point in time.

Because the majority of breeders have written a standard and voted on it and the blue coloring was not accepted as pure. As far as never getting away from it I disagree. If you do not use the dogs in a breeding program that carry a visible fault such as color the dogs that carry it will fade into the background and their blood will be so diluted that it no longer will influence the breed of the day. Once you can eliminate a fault for 7 generations you can consider the dogs to be pure again.

Ezzy

eebstein · Post by **eebstein** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Once you can eliminate a fault for 7 generations you can consider the dogs to be pure again.

Ezzy

You have some good points Ezzy, I really am just an outsiderlooking in, but to play the "devils advicate" couldn't the exact same logic be used to give reason to include Blue in the standard? It has been more than 7 generations since the alleged Dobe blood was added so now those Blues are just as "pure" as the greys using the same logic from the other side. It appears to me the crux of this problem/debate is more about the addition of the foreign blood than the color. Most arguements revolve around the cross breeding as you mentioned that breeders agreed it was not "pure" and most seem to attack that aspect of the debate. I'm not saying either is right or wrong but at this point in time it seems like it will inevetably some day be added to the standard, some day in the future when enough people get behind it and produce some quality dogs. To to be honest to an outsider it does kinda seem silly to try to exclude something that has been part of the breed longer than it hasn't. Just my opinion which really doesn't matter anyway.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:57 am

eebstein wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Once you can eliminate a fault for 7 generations you can consider the dogs to be pure again.

Ezzy
You have some good points Ezzy, I really am just an outsiderlooking in, but to play the "devils advicate" couldn't the exact same logic be used to give reason to include Blue in the standard? It has been more than 7 generations since the alleged Dobe blood was added so now those Blues are just as "pure" as the greys using the same logic from the other side. It appears to me the crux of this problem/debate is more about the addition of the foreign blood than the color. Most arguements revolve around the cross breeding as you mentioned that breeders agreed it was not "pure" and most seem to attack that aspect of the debate. I'm not saying either is right or wrong but at this point in time it seems like it will inevetably some day be added to the standard, some day in the future when enough people get behind it and produce some quality dogs. To to be honest to an outsider it does kinda seem silly to try to exclude something that has been part of the breed longer than it hasn't. Just my opinion which really doesn't matter anyway.

Your opinion is as good as mine. And you present a valid argument.

Ezzy