EP vs. GSP why the difference in $?

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:06 pm

I have recently been looking at some ads online for FT pups just to kill time mostly and it seems like you can buy a really nicely bred FT EP for sufficiently less than what you can buy a compareable GSP for... Why? You often hear people say that you can pick up well bred EPs for short money compared to some of the other breeds. Im not looking to start a Whizzin' match here and am not trying to stir the pot. I am simply curious.....

Jim

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:19 pm

The other thing you will find is the East Coast is higher priced on pointers and GSPs
The middle of the country and much of the south like everything else is more reasonable and has more value.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:29 pm

It depends on who you know and where you go. Online is not where to get a good perspective.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:34 pm

This is a really simple question. There are more field trial quality pointer pups in the world then there are shorthair pups. Not a slight on shorthairs in the least but it's just the truth. Nice pointer pups are a lot more common and easy to come by so they don't carry the value that a nice field trial shorthair pup might carry.

Casey you're just not looking in the right places. Many a good prospect can be had from an internet classified ad. Unless you're one of those that can tell a dud at 7 weeks. I doubt it though.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:07 pm

bigsugar wrote:This is a really simple question. There are more field trial quality pointer pups in the world then there are shorthair pups. Not a slight on shorthairs in the least but it's just the truth. Nice pointer pups are a lot more common and easy to come by so they don't carry the value that a nice field trial shorthair pup might carry.

Casey you're just not looking in the right places. Many a good prospect can be had from an internet classified ad. Unless you're one of those that can tell a dud at 7 weeks. I doubt it though.

8 weeks.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:12 pm

How many championships have you won Casey. And don't give me breed championships. I mean big boy championships.

We've not won any. Not even close.

Point is there is really no way to tell at 8 weeks what you've got. I think you can really start to evaluate them at 8 weeks but the jury is still out.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:17 pm

bigsugar wrote:How many championships have you won Casey. And don't give me breed championships. I mean big boy championships.

We've not won any. Not even close.

Point is there is really no way to tell at 8 weeks what you've got. I think you can really start to evaluate them at 8 weeks but the jury is still out.

???

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:18 pm

bigsugar wrote:How many championships have you won Casey. And don't give me breed championships. I mean big boy championships.

We've not won any. Not even close.

Point is there is really no way to tell at 8 weeks what you've got. I think you can really start to evaluate them at 8 weeks but the jury is still out.

???

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:23 pm

Casey you seem to like to argue a bunch. That's ok.

Randy's Craig County trial will be as Westfalls coming up pretty quick this spring. You should come up and bring your vast knowledge and your string and run em.

Do you agree that field trial shorthairs are harder to find then a field trial pointer. Andy and I would love to learn something from an expert.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:47 pm

bigsugar wrote:Casey you seem to like to argue a bunch. That's ok.

Randy's Craig County trial will be as Westfalls coming up pretty quick this spring. You should come up and bring your vast knowledge and your string and run em.

Do you agree that field trial shorthairs are harder to find then a field trial pointer. Andy and I would love to learn something from an expert.

Will there be raccoons? That and woodchuck are our flavor de jour. Updating rabies is costing me a fortune.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:48 pm

bigsugar wrote:This is a really simple question. There are more field trial quality pointer pups in the world then there are shorthair pups. Not a slight on shorthairs in the least but it's just the truth. Nice pointer pups are a lot more common and easy to come by so they don't carry the value that a nice field trial shorthair pup might carry.

Casey you're just not looking in the right places. Many a good prospect can be had from an internet classified ad. Unless you're one of those that can tell a dud at 7 weeks. I doubt it though.

I tend to agree with pretty much all of this.

In the world of pointers there is a VERY small AKC show component. The vast majority of the pointers are FDSB registered and striclty field oriented. In fact they are considered pretty much upland bird specialists. There are very few pointers that are bred for the companion dog market, where the prices tend to be far, far higher.

There is no shortage of well bred pointer pups with field potential, so the prices for pups are kept low.

For shorthairs, there is a significant AKC show component to the breed. There is a significant field component to the breed. There is a fairly large field component subset which wants a dog that can accomplish a variety of tasks including upland, fur and retrieving. Some refer to that as "versatile". There is also a companion dog component to the breed.

These things, taken together, tend to provide a wide and deep demand base. pushing the price of GSP pups upward, especially for well bred ones.

As far as where to look, I have seen some AWESOME pointer breedings advertised on the internet. There is no question that the very best of the best field breedings by established field trialers are still closely subscribed by other established field trialers... all of whom are looking for that next stemwinder and winner. However, some extremely well bred dogs are fairly widely available to the general public.

With a little digging and some phone calls, even some of those closely subscribed pointer puppies can be available to a regular Joe or Jill. At least I have found that to be true. I suspect that if one was looking for a high quality field bred GSP, the same sort of things would hold true, but at a somewhat higher price point.

RayG

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:59 pm

I'll buy Casey 2 bags of dog food or double her entry fee in a prize of her choice if she wins a broke dog field trial stake at the trial you are talking about. Has to be her dog and she has to run it....

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:05 pm

You're right Ray.

The show influence is high in the continentals.

Andy always gets a chuckle out of pups advertised as "field bred". When we breed a shooting dog winning bitch to a multiple all age champion sire there is no need for the "field bred" tag to be put on them.

Casey we can see as many coons as you want. We have a pit bull who loves to fight them and we just got a jack russell to fight them with too.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:37 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:....Online is not where to get a good perspective.

:roll: Hmmm...don't even have to leave this site.
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32535
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32756
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=33465
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=33005

Jimbo...I am of the opinion that there is a bigger pool of quality EPs than GSPs for the field trialers.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:13 pm

Been a couple nice dogs advertised here huh.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:38 pm

7 weeks heck! Andy said he can start picking out the winners at 4 weeks over at thefieldtrialer.com!

Also there are SO MANY pointer litters compared to GSP litters, supply and demand.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:13 am

Elk that's not what Andy said. You obviously have some obsession with Andy. It's not normal. Go back and re read.

What he said is that he starts looking at them at 4 weeks for characteristics that he likes. You can tell a little bit about them at that age if you are with your litter everyday and pay close attention to them.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:08 am

As a very occasional GSP breeder, 4 litters in 13 years of trialing and 42 years of family owned GSPs, my biggest concern, past my breeding selections, has always been to make sure the pups go to quality hunting/testing/trialing homes, that they have every opportunity to compete and/or to hunt. Not house pets, not running companions, and certainly not dead on a dog pile. I have always been willing to take dogs back, which I've only taken one back out of around 35 pups bred. I am firmly of the opinion that there are very shady breeders in all breeds. I see the websites, with these folks who have 75 half trained dogs for sale, 3 litters at one time, several more expected soon, no dogs with titles, and for those of us who know, dogs who have most likely never even been hunted. How do they know squat about these dogs if they own that many?? IMHO, a GSP is never a commodity. However, there are those who figure the more they breed, in sheer numbers, they will have a better chance for trial quality puppies, so...large numbers equal low prices. I sell the few pups I have had for $1,000 because I have confidence in the production of my one breeding quality female, now passed, and I have carefully bred to sires that are proven in competition AND progeny, I don't rely on numbers.

However, I did call one breeder here in Texas, of GSPs. They have a website, looks pretty good, pretty well bred dogs, etc. I told her I was interested in a pup. I asked if she trialed or competed in any events, she said no. I asked her if she or her husband hunted, she said no. I asked how they were able to judge their breeding stock. Her answer, and I quote, "my husband put a bird out for the sire and dam ONCE". Now, that's who many buy pups from. Their pups are $500 each!!!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:18 am

I see the websites, with these folks who have 75 half trained dogs for sale, 3 litters at one time, several more expected soon,

This describes many kennels...and even some with proven dogs. I have to believe there is a lot of discarding being done....like the Beagle guys...many have a pistol handy and a "mound out" back.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:37 am

JKP wrote:
I see the websites, with these folks who have 75 half trained dogs for sale, 3 litters at one time, several more expected soon,
This describes many kennels...and even some with proven dogs. I have to believe there is a lot of discarding being done....like the Beagle guys...many have a pistol handy and a "mound out" back.

Sounds like a "shady" operation. I wonder if the piles can be found in "meadows" or behind the "kennels"... Lol

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:05 am

ultracarry wrote:
JKP wrote:
I see the websites, with these folks who have 75 half trained dogs for sale, 3 litters at one time, several more expected soon,
This describes many kennels...and even some with proven dogs. I have to believe there is a lot of discarding being done....like the Beagle guys...many have a pistol handy and a "mound out" back.
Sounds like a "shady" operation. I wonder if the piles can be found in "meadows" or behind the "kennels"... Lol

Now that right there was the quote and comment of the Century!

As an edit, Elkhunter has it dead right:

Also there are SO MANY pointer litters compared to GSP litters, supply and demand.

That right there is the difference in a nutshell.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:25 am

AKC GSP breeders spend more on health testing.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:42 am

JKP, where it's true that some of these have "proven" dogs according to their websites...

"field trial proven"

"proven producer"

"FC" before the sire's name

"our dogs are proven on wild birds each year"

BLAH BLAH BLAH!! I can buy a Field Champion that has only been proven to be able to beat bad competition. What does a "proven producer" mean? The dog's sperm swims? "field trial proven"-means squat. Unsuspecting buyers believe the nonsense because it's in writing and/or they are just new and uneducated without experience. IMHO, a dog is proven by truly being hunted-I can offer names of people who have hunted wild birds over my dogs. I own three Field Champions, each has not only been proven to be a nice nice dog, but I can give names of people who know the dogs or I suggest to buyers to call amateurs and pros who know the dogs. My one main female proved her worth by producting several outstanding All Age, Shooting Dog ,and Gun Dog trial dogs, PLUS produced many pups that proved to be excellent on wild birds. NOT an ad for my kennel, but to inform those looking to do their homework. To NOT be impressed with titles or claims to hunting prowess. MAKE the breeder show you his/her dogs, work them, have them retrieve, talk to people who know, find out who has a reputation for being a quality breeder who has dogs that produce what you want in a dog. If the breeder will not gladly give you many names of people who will brag on his pups, run scared. If we won't work the dogs for you, run scared. If his dogs are not health certified, OFAed, run scared. A reputable breeder will absolutely be thrilled to show off!!

Sorry for the tangent!!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:51 am

@ trublu, do you CHIC? If not, which, besides hip clearances, health tests do you do? How much does this add on to the cost of your breeding program, if you don't mind?

Putting together a handout for our club info booth and just interested in real numbers from another breed since the main topic is cost of puppies.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:12 am

bigsugar wrote:Elk that's not what Andy said. You obviously have some obsession with Andy. It's not normal. Go back and re read.

What he said is that he starts looking at them at 4 weeks for characteristics that he likes. You can tell a little bit about them at that age if you are with your litter everyday and pay close attention to them.

Not obsession just entertainment! His posts always make me smile is all.

I dont know if you can just find a quality trial GSP easier than you can find a quality Pointer, cause I constantly see ads for people selling pointers "that wont make a trial dog" and then the pic of the pup is like a 4 month old puppy, how you can even tell at 3-4 months old what the dog is going to turn into at 3-4 years old is beyond me. Some people just burn through dogs, and some people breed very few dogs and always have winners. I dont know if its the "trainer" or the "dog".

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:20 am

Big sugar is starting to sound more like Andy every day??????

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:36 am

The few that I have bred have been OFAed and color tested. From what I have seen, hip, thyroid, eyes, etc. problems are not common in the GSP field trial lines. In fact, it's amazing how many of the good ones competed until they were 10 or older.

I never thought about cost of testing, trialing as it related to breeding. In fact, I have never considered that I actually had a "breeding program".

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:45 am

We both post under it myers. I think Rhonda has seen enough good pups and sorry pups to know what shes looking at. I don't think anything is etched in stone at such a young age but if you can't see temperament such as boldness or conformation issues at 4 weeks then you're blind. Do those things mean a pup won't make it? Not necessarily but its something to look at.

Conformation is a dirty word to most pointer guys. Not me.

AN

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:55 am

trueblu wrote:The few that I have bred have been OFAed and color tested. From what I have seen, hip, thyroid, eyes, etc. problems are not common in the GSP field trial lines. In fact, it's amazing how many of the good ones competed until they were 10 or older.

I never thought about cost of testing, trialing as it related to breeding. In fact, I have never considered that I actually had a "breeding program".

Oh. Well, thanks for the answer. Didn't intend to make anyone think this close to the weekend.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:04 am

I personally think the gsp has a huge hype that appeals to the weekend hunter that's looking to have a family dog that "points ". I think alot of people see the gsp as more of a family dog and the ep as more of a hyper hunting 1 dementional dog! This allows breeders to ask more for there pups. Supply and demand! I'll stick with my pointers!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:58 am

ST8 UPPOINTERS wrote:I personally think the gsp has a huge hype that appeals to the weekend hunter that's looking to have a family dog that "points ". I think alot of people see the gsp as more of a family dog and the ep as more of a hyper hunting 1 dementional dog! This allows breeders to ask more for there pups. Supply and demand! I'll stick with my pointers!

GREAT Point!!! Here are some pics of my new FIRE BREATHING DRAGON.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:00 pm

What a terrorr!

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:18 pm

Best kept or worst kep secret in dogs is the ESP. OUr next breed will be a pointer - if we ever branch out.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:24 pm

Crazy unruly can't get along as a pet pointers, gotta love em.

They'll even steal your tractor given half a chance

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:34 pm

ST8, glad my shorthairs can stumble around and point. I was gonna get a poodle but decided I'd like a pseudo birddog, so I got a slow plodding shorthair. I wanted a pointer, but all I found was bone piles. If you want to see what the GSP breed now offers, come to Booneville or Eureka sometime!!

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:38 pm

That wasnt my point! I love shorhairs.. Ive owned many, and will own more in the future im sure!

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:39 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Here are some pics of my new FIRE BREATHING DRAGON.

You got one of those too?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:18 pm

trueblu wrote:ST8, glad my shorthairs can stumble around and point. I was gonna get a poodle but decided I'd like a pseudo birddog, so I got a slow plodding shorthair. I wanted a pointer, but all I found was bone piles. If you want to see what the GSP breed now offers, come to Booneville or Eureka sometime!!

I've been there. Im sorry there is still quite a difference. But there are some awesome GSP's out there for sure.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:14 pm

Is there anything German about a shorthair today anyway really?

Seems like the shorthair trial crowd spends their entire existence trying to be like the pointer crowd anyway. Just my observation.

AN

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:21 pm

This thread is headed in a bad direction. Please discontinue the pissing match and get back on topic.

Greg J

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:03 pm

bigsugar wrote:Is there anything German about a shorthair today anyway really?

Seems like the shorthair trial crowd spends their entire existence trying to be like the pointer crowd anyway. Just my observation.

AN

Really ???? lol

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:27 pm

bigsugar wrote:Is there anything German about a shorthair today anyway really?

Seems like the shorthair trial crowd spends their entire existence trying to be like the pointer crowd anyway. Just my observation.

AN

I believe the game dictates that, not the breed.

Why the difference in price? I don't know.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:44 pm

Mine are rotten too! Horrible house dogs. Don't get one.... run....run away.

Our girl from the shelter.....sleepy skinny pointer

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:38 pm

Let me clarify. I wasn't taking a stab at shorthairs or the folks running them at all.

The shorthair folks have a great thing going with the way they have kept the great genetic pool relatively small. That definately drives the price of a legit field trial quality shorthair. You have to look far and wide for an all age shorthair. You don't have to look that far for an all age pointer. What I was saying is that so many people want the shorthair breed to mimic the pointer breed and that I don't understand. Why do that? It will just drive the price of your pups down if everyone has a trial quality shorthair they can breed and produce that kind of pup.

The fact that shorthairs are no more German then Pointers are English is one that can't be argued. We can start a separate thread on that Greg if you'd like. It would be interesting to say the least.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:11 pm

gpblitz wrote:
bigsugar wrote:The shorthair folks have a great thing going with the way they have kept the great genetic pool relatively small. That definately drives the price of a legit field trial quality shorthair.
I don't think the GSP gene pool is that small. legit field trial quality shorthair, by who's standard ? Just asking...

bigsugar wrote:You have to look far and wide for an all age shorthair. You don't have to look that far for an all age pointer.

Should A GSP run like a Pointer ? Should a Britt run like a pointer Should a setter run like a pointer ? They are all seperate breeds?

Its the GSP people judging them as pointers. Judging dictates what directions breeds go. If dogs that run like pointers win, then people win breed to win.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:20 pm

I don't have an opinion on what a shorthair should or shouldn't do.

I know most of the shorthair people I know are after a dog that basically is a short tailed pointer. They want their dogs to run like one, be fast like one, look good going like one and look like one pointed. I think that is evident in the evolution of the shorthair.

How many big boned 90 lb shorthairs do you see today? Not many. Most of the shorthairs I see (I mainly see them at trials) are 40 lb bullets. They look just like a pointer with half the tail. I talk to the owners and they all have two things in common: they looked far and wide for him and when they found him they spent some cash on him.

Most shorthair folks don't deny the influence that the modern day pointer has played in the development of today's shorthair. It's made them better IMO.

As far as a trial dog in who's opinion? I'm talking all age shorthairs. Just like in the pointer, setter and brittany world the all age dog reigns supreme. Shooting dogs are a close second but second none the less.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:45 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:This thread is headed in a bad direction. Please discontinue the pissing match and get back on topic.

Greg J

Thanks Greg. I don't understand why it always comes to this.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:49 pm

gpblitz wrote:
bigsugar wrote:The shorthair folks have a great thing going with the way they have kept the great genetic pool relatively small. That definately drives the price of a legit field trial quality shorthair.
I don't think the GSP gene pool is that small. legit field trial quality shorthair, by who's standard ? Just asking...

bigsugar wrote:You have to look far and wide for an all age shorthair. You don't have to look that far for an all age pointer.

Should A GSP run like a Pointer ? Should a Britt run like a pointer Should a setter run like a pointer ? They are all seperate breeds?

Ditto!

Charlie

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:24 pm

There are and have always been some 90 lb shorthairs being shown, NOT field dogs. There are now and have always been big running shorthairs. My family has had GSPs for over 50 years, granted trial lined, but they could roll back in 1960 and go with pointers of their era. I hate to break it to those who believe the English Pointer is every breed's standard, it flat isn't true. Attend a few Pointer shooting dog trials, they are AKC GSP gun dogs. All Age dogs ranging 300 yards running in and out of woods, ain't All Age dogs, sorry. Where there have been breeders in all breeds that have felt the need to breed to outside breeds, the GSP trial contingent is the one that passed legislation within the GSPCA to require DNA numbers before any other breed. I'm sure some will give exceptions, as most believe the exceptions are the rule. However, attend a GSPCA or NGSPA nationals and see the dogs, how they run, their conformation, etc. Yes, a very few are bug eyed, bow legged, short eared, round eyed dimwits. But, most fit the standard. And, no they aren't 90 pounds. 90 pounds is outside the standard!! hate to bring facts to the discussion, but sometimes facts are necessary where opinion is being considered factual.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:55 pm

Gawwwww, why do ya'all have to make things so difficult!!??

EP vs. GSP why the difference in $?

It's because they're worth more!! Sheesh, simple.

In seriousness, I agree it is difficult to find a good AA GSP but that really is a small, niche portion of the breed vs pointers (where it's still relatively a small niche portion of the breed but still a bigger pool than other breeds) - it's the one competition venue (AF open breed AA Ch.) I have my sights set on that my hounds haven't quite pulled off the win yet. Been so freakin' close a few times I could cry, heck maybe I did cry, and I know many times we posted better "scores" than the bulk of the field which was all pointas/settas but until we're hoistin' the trophy after all the dogs have run we're still losers just like the rest that entered!!

I'm a much more serious hunter (although it seems I push the shutter button more than pull the trigger any more) than I am a trialer and out where I live, IMO, there is just nothing better suited for the 1-2 dog owning, multi-species/mostly chukar, multi times per week bird hunter than the GSP...specifically the liver/roan GSP's...from proven stock. They find birds, cover ample country, typically retrieve naturally, and tough as shiz in the rough country - tougher IMO than pointas/white & pink dogs. Worth the moolaw to find a goodun...heck I paid $500 for one once!! Serious!!

Here ya' go, a blatant GSP brag. http://www.vimeo.com/24742226

Take that! Hah! Yesss!! What's that honey?? Post a picture of your new dog?? Serious?? But...but...yes dear: