EP vs. GSP why the difference in $?

[ckirsch]

Looks to me like JKP has a pretty good handle on this one. Pointers do have a bit of an undeserved image problem, due in part to the tasks they are asked to perform at the highest levels of horseback trialing, and the fact that the breed is inarguably the most dominant in that game. As far as pricing goes, it appears to be a supply / demand issue, as JKP pointed out. At almost any point in time, there are a dozen or so EP litters available with championship pedigrees. I don't see as many shorthair litters posted, but to be honest I don't watch for them as closely, so I might be wrong. The comment that pointer breeders turn out a lot of pups in pursuit of a truly big-time dog makes sense.

I went through three other breeds of dogs prior to my first pointer, largely due to their reputation as aloof run-offs who aren't likely to retrieve. I'm happy to report that hasn't been my experience at all.

Please don't interpret this as an 'EP's are superior" thread - I've had my rear end handed to me by both shorthairs and brits a couple of times in the two NSTRA trials I've run in, and have seen a bunch of other breeds in NAVHDA tests that I'd be very proud to own. I have to admit that I've also seen my best dog out-hunted by friends' wirehairs and griffs on occasion. We've also had days when I'm wearing the biggest grin at the end of the field. Lots of good dogs out there in all breeds.

[ACooper]

You could have this same topic but titled navhda gsp vs FT gsp. Navhda GSP's seem to run 200-300 more per puppy.

[Cajun Casey]

You could have this same topic but titled navhda gsp vs FT gsp. Navhda GSP's seem to run 200-300 more per puppy.

And, then, there're the DDs. One in at my trainer's right now. Pointer guys are in awe of the puppy price and the breeding requirements. I don't know which organization the dog is testing in.

I felt like poor relations with my $500 dog and my homegrown dog on the line with a $1000 pointer, the DD, and my friend's show Irish setter that is in for some initial bird work to get her behavior under control.

[Elkhunter]

Andy I agree with you, those NAVHDA pups are pricey compared to FT pups. Almost $300-$400 more.

[briarpatch]

You could have this same topic but titled navhda gsp vs FT gsp. Navhda GSP's seem to run 200-300 more per puppy.

Agree with that one Seems with GSPs for the most part even well known FT bred dogs are generally cheaper than NAHVDA bred lines or show lines or well even known Hunt test lines for some reason ...

[lvrgsp]

IMHO it's alot of thought process......people think differently within different breeds, even within there own breed........so the question was why are the pointer FT litters cheaper than GSP Ft litters? All in what your looking at......I just sold my FT GSP Litter whatever the heck that is at 350 bucks a pup....and thats the sire and dam having multiple AKC and AF horseback trial wins or placements and for my bitch she run with ALOT of AF trial pointers, and her mother Abbie is an AA NFC hour dog and I would put Abbie up against any and I mean any AF pointer.........most of my good bird dog friends are AF Pointer trial guys...The difference is perception alot. Ive seen AF horseback SD at the Illinois SD, Rend Lake SD Outland SD run no bigger than GSP SD's so thats all in what ya see. I've seen GSP's not run 50 yds. and I've seen em run handle at 500yds...same with pointers........So What.....I also know for fact that Ruger a GSP won an AF pointer trial, and someone correct me if I'm wrong here Hoke had a few win at the pointer trials as well as Doc..........nonetheless if I wanted a pointer I would buy one...........I dont......dont care if my GSP runs like one......Pointer guys lets be honest here and I'm in the middle of a BUNCH of em north and south...your gonna breed twice the litters that FT gsp'ers do to get what they want........

There again this is of course just my opinion..


Merry Hannukkaaaaaah

[JKP]

Pointer guys lets be honest here and I'm in the middle of a BUNCH of em north and south...your gonna breed twice the litters that FT gsp'ers do to get what they want.

Oh boy...can't wait to get home tonight, grab a beer and some pop corn...and tune in for the next episode!!

[Greg Jennings]

Chip's post is on the fringe of what I'm going to allow here. The "perception" part of the post, that is. That last part, that seems controversial, is, I think, on topic. Perhaps not clear, but on topic.

Debate on the volume of pups produced GSP vs EP, breeding ideas (line breeding, out crossing, nicks, "best to best", etc), what the breeders are trying to produce (foot hunting vs all-age, etc) will, I think, be interesting. Just keep it on topic and informational. NO more pissing match.

[lvrgsp]

I agree with ya Greg, and let me clarify that last statement some...(Holy cow you don't see this anymore on this forum do ya.... ).

Ok again my opinion, and I have seen a ton of AF Trial pointers recently, and IMO, the quality whether its the dog, the training, whatever has been off quite a bit...and IMO its to much of the mindset BREED THE CHAMP to any ole bitch and get em on the ground and see what we get mentality, and in part I think its because of the economy, ya have do something to help sell the pups some, and I think that's true for both GSP's and EP's. and again IMO I think I stand a better chance of finding a gsp litter to pick a pup out of than I do a EP, to trial.
And here is why the quality of EP pup you are going to need to be succesful on the pointer circuit is high, why do you think so many pointers are sold as derbies....the quantity of quality competition is greater as a whole IMO for the pointer versus the GSP. I do believe there are different regional levels of competiton for the gsp
Again not anyone better than the other just my thoughts.

[ACooper]

There's a coverdog pointer litter in MN right now that is priced at over $1000 per pup. I can get a pretty good gsp pup out of FT lines for a fair amount less than that.

Obviously there are always exceptions... On average are pointers priced higher in your area?

[Firemedic]

Andy I agree with you, those NAVHDA pups are pricey compared to FT pups. Almost $300-$400 more.

That's because they charge per pound.

[lvrgsp]

Let me elaborate further......more pointer pups on the ground less price....for the most part....
And case in point refer to this topic, only in the numbers part nothing more....

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5521

[ultracarry]

Andy I agree with you, those NAVHDA pups are pricey compared to FT pups. Almost $300-$400 more.

That's because they charge per pound.

Lol

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

I would say there's far less pointer pups on the ground than gsp pups. On the west coast I would say its close to 10 to 1 . So I don't think that theory holds any weight honestly.

[ACooper]

Andy I agree with you, those NAVHDA pups are pricey compared to FT pups. Almost $300-$400 more.

That's because they charge per pound.

Nah I think it's cause pretty dogs cost more.

[lvrgsp]

I would say there's far less pointer pups on the ground than gsp pups. On the west coast I would say its close to 10 to 1 . So I don't think that theory holds any weight honestly.

Know idea what goes on in the West coast so that very well may be, but here in the midwest and southeast where there are alot of AF trials I think it holds alot of weight.


This isn't rocket science guys, if I want to go run in the Florida Ch right now guess what there are 90 dogs....For the gsp we dont get alot more than that at our nationals with AA, SD, and Derbies combined. The Arkansas SD had what around 90 some entries a month ago? More dogs entered means you had better have a darn good prospect to run in em....There are more dogs in the AF pointer level that are at that level compared to gsps entering FT stakes.....you had better be a bit more selective in your search to put a pointer with a pro....not saying individual dogs over each venue are better than the other. The venues themselves are different...

Ok so in turn pointer guys are more selective in what there going to drop 7-10,000 a year on trialing, which means more pool to choose from which means lower prices.....sure some applications will vary.......

[ElhewPointer]

I would say there's far less pointer pups on the ground than gsp pups. On the west coast I would say its close to 10 to 1 . So I don't think that theory holds any weight honestly.

For the gsp we dont get alot more than that at our nationals with AA, SD, and Derbies combined. The Arkansas SD had what around 90 some entries a month ago? More dogs entered means you had better have a darn good prospect to run in em....There are more dogs in the AF pointer level that are at that level compared to gsps entering FT stakes.....you had better be a bit more selective in your search to put a pointer with a pro....not saying individual dogs over each venue are better than the other. The venues themselves are different...

There were 97 dogs in the GSP Gundog Stake National, 44 AA dogs, 70 for the futurity and 74 in the amateur. And that is only one breed. Actually it was the Ozark that drew 90 of which I think 12 were shags.

[lvrgsp]

Correct Vegas, and my mistake that is our AKC national I should have said the NGSPA national thats our AF Nat Ch.
But you get my point overall your championship stakes draw more entries than ours they generally cost more per entry

[PntrRookie]

...in the Florida Ch right now guess what there are 90 dogs...

FL does have 90 entries http://www.fieldtrialcentral.com/. ALSO there are another 49 dogs running up at Ames that are NOT in FL, yet all compete against each other at sometime. A total of 139 pointers or setters - WOW! Good points Chip and Vagas.

[ElhewPointer]

I agree with ya Greg, and let me clarify that last statement some...(Holy cow you don't see this anymore on this forum do ya.... ).

Ok again my opinion, and I have seen a ton of AF Trial pointers recently, and IMO, the quality whether its the dog, the training, whatever has been off quite a bit...and IMO its to much of the mindset BREED THE CHAMP to any ole bitch and get em on the ground and see what we get mentality, and in part I think its because of the economy, ya have do something to help sell the pups some, and I think that's true for both GSP's and EP's. and again IMO I think I stand a better chance of finding a gsp litter to pick a pup out of than I do a EP, to trial.
And here is why the quality of EP pup you are going to need to be succesful on the pointer circuit is high, why do you think so many pointers are sold as derbies....the quantity of quality competition is greater as a whole IMO for the pointer versus the GSP. I do believe there are different regional levels of competiton for the gsp
Again not anyone better than the other just my thoughts.

I think you bring up a valid point, but I think you are looking at the wrong breed for this statement. I don't think the "breed to the champ" is a pointer mentality. I would actually say that would be the GSP mentality. If you look at bloodlines in the pointer world. There seems to be a lot more of a "direction" then in the GSP world. Elhew guys stay with Elhew, Miller/Miller, HTA/HTA, Erin/Erin. Now we outcross a lot, but there is A LOT more linebreeding in pointers then GSP, in turn says to me that we don't breed any ole bitch to the champ.

[lvrgsp]

I agree with ya Greg, and let me clarify that last statement some...(Holy cow you don't see this anymore on this forum do ya.... ).

Ok again my opinion, and I have seen a ton of AF Trial pointers recently, and IMO, the quality whether its the dog, the training, whatever has been off quite a bit...and IMO its to much of the mindset BREED THE CHAMP to any ole bitch and get em on the ground and see what we get mentality, and in part I think its because of the economy, ya have do something to help sell the pups some, and I think that's true for both GSP's and EP's. and again IMO I think I stand a better chance of finding a gsp litter to pick a pup out of than I do a EP, to trial.
And here is why the quality of EP pup you are going to need to be succesful on the pointer circuit is high, why do you think so many pointers are sold as derbies....the quantity of quality competition is greater as a whole IMO for the pointer versus the GSP. I do believe there are different regional levels of competiton for the gsp
Again not anyone better than the other just my thoughts.

I think you bring up a valid point, but I think you are looking at the wrong breed for this statement. I don't think the "breed to the champ" is a pointer mentality. I would actually say that would be the GSP mentality. If you look at bloodlines in the pointer world. There seems to be a lot more of a "direction" then in the GSP world. Elhew guys stay with Elhew, Miller/Miller, HTA/HTA, Erin/Erin. Now we outcross a lot, but there is A LOT more linebreeding in pointers then GSP, in turn says to me that we don't breed any ole bitch to the champ.

I think is that way some in both breeds to honest Vegas....There is a good reason that the Nat ch at Ames stud fee will go up some or he will be bred alot more after he wins....I will bet you Snowatch got a whole lot more consideration after he won the National and was bred to "any ole bitch" after he was "THE CHAMP" and I would say the same goes for us.....

[trueblu]

Dang Elhew, I hate it when I agree with you. But, I agree completely. Most wanna be GSP breeders breed to the latest greatest national champion. One in particular a few years ago won our nationals on a race that was birdless, he is a dead run off IMHO, but many bred to him. He produces run offs and no pointing fools IMHO. MY OPINION!!! BUT, I have seen his get and worked his get, wouldn't have them!! Pointer breeders who are producing are linebreeding and breeding to producers most often. Not just to winners.

I won't name names, but one OLD TIME breeder here in Texas, well well known, is having a ton of success because he knows what lines produce birddogs that win and he and a few others are doing a great job in their breeding program. Their dogs are winning like crazy and they are doing a great job in their breeding. Funny, he knows the line for 10 generations, trained most of them, wild bird hunted all of them, bred many combinations before he figured it all out and he is still learning. Go figure.

[budlight11]

well i will tell everyone something not to start any trouble but i have a year old gsp that is outstanding i love everything about ep but my gsp is bout as fine as they come i will put my money were my mouth is too. but how i see it if the dog will point ,hold it and retrieve to hand then why are u arguing over breeds long story short its personal preffrece . it dont matter what a dog costs if u like the dog and thats what u want buy it

[Waterdogs1]

being a newbie to pointing dog or away form them for a long time I was so suprised at how cheap pointing puppies are compared to Retrievers. If you were looking to buy a retriever pup from two title FC parent your talking 3,000 minimum most likely 4,000-5,000. Why are pointing dogs so cheap? Last pointing dog trial I went to was in 95 the year I graduated. I love watching good dogs no matter what the breed.

[ezzy333]

being a newbie to pointing dog or away form them for a long time I was so suprised at how cheap pointing puppies are compared to Retrievers. If you were looking to buy a retriever pup from two title FC parent your talking 3,000 minimum most likely 4,000-5,000. Why are pointing dogs so cheap? Last pointing dog trial I went to was in 95 the year I graduated. I love watching good dogs no matter what the breed.

Ithink they sell at a price that most people feel they are worth. I have problems wondering why they are so expensive.

So why are retrievers so high priced?

Ezzy

[gspguy]

There's a coverdog pointer litter in MN right now that is priced at over $1000 per pup. I can get a pretty good gsp pup out of FT lines for a fair amount less than that.

Obviously there are always exceptions... On average are pointers priced higher in your area?

I'm not sure. A FT GSP costs $500+. A NAVHDA or HT shorthair seems to cost even more. Generally you can't find many EPs in MN - which is unfortunate because they are awesome dogs. It's mostly continental dogs here except for the grouse trialers and then it seems they like mostly setters - which are awesome dogs too... except I don't want to deal with the long hair. My next dog may be an EP but in my research there isn't much around here that I personally have interest in. I like the looks of the Miller type EP that's almost all white. And for some reason I can't get myself to like the Elhew stuff which is what the cover dog guys seem to like. I think it's because the Elhew stuff is over marketed. I saw one litter about 5 years ago from a MN NSTRA guy that had Miller bred dogs. I was drooling and really wanted to take one home but my practical side talked me out of it.