Correct form of e collar training

trasmuson3 · Post by **trasmuson3** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:42 am

So my question is, is there a book or video out there that show the correct way to train your dog with a shock collar? I have a dog that is about a year and a half, and I have only had to shock him a couple times in all his life, but every time I do, he completely shuts down. He is scared of the collar, the control, and even me when the collar comes out. Now he is a shelter dog that we rescued and we got him when he was about 3 months old and has always been kind of a timid dog, but I don't want him to be afraid of it. I ask because I will be getting a new pup in mid June and I want to make sure that I train it correctly and not abuse the use of an e collar because I think they can be very helpful in training. Thanks for the thoughts!

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:00 pm

I don't want to read too much into the statement that you have only had to shock him a few times. But all too often people use the ecollar as a "last resort"; waiting until they are frustrated and then shocking the dog. If the dog hasn't been taught what the correction means they will shut down. The trick of the ecollar is that the dog has to understand how to "turn-off" the correction.

Introducing a collar is absolutely critical. The dog has to understand what it is being asked to do, and understand that the collar is a reminder/correction of that behavior. When introducing the collar you should use a command that is already well understood, come or kennel are the ones I use. Check out evan grahams video on introduction.

It sounds like your dog is already collar shy, I would have the dog wear the collar while it is turned off for all your yard training sessions. Putting on the collar should get the dog excited (mine love it, because they know they are going to work). Only after you are over that hump should you go back to introducing the collar in the yard. Use the least amount of juice required.

Good luck.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:11 pm

this is how I approach the collar... http://www.kninebirddog.com/understandi ... ollar.html

I do see people all the time thinking the Ecollar is some magical fix all use it in the wrong way Thus why the E collar gets such a bad rap...As with anything it is the Hand and mind behind the hand that is at fault not the tool to which the hand is controlling.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:40 pm

With Grrman shorthairs, I have the advantage of being able to introduce electrical correction through use of bark collars. They learn they are in control of turning off the correction or not getting it at all. Nearly all our e-collar use is for correction, either flubbing something they know or trashbreaking.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:05 pm

Since dogs are place oriented, do you think the dog can make the connection between the bark collar - it stops if i don't bark, to "if i obey in the field I won't be corrected."

Not saying you are wrong ;just wondering.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:12 pm

Sharon wrote:Since dogs are place oriented, do you think the dog can make the connection between the bark collar - it stops if i don't bark, to "if i obey in the field I won't be corrected."

Not saying you are wrong ;just wondering.

Dogs aren't quite capable of that type of thinking.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:19 pm

Agreed.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:30 pm

Sharon wrote:Since dogs are place oriented, do you think the dog can make the connection between the bark collar - it stops if i don't bark, to "if i obey in the field I won't be corrected."

Not saying you are wrong ;just wondering.

As I said, we use shock correction immediately upon the infraction, so they associate the correction with the immediately preceeding action. They do generalize to other punishment, also. For example, I was working a flush for one of my Shooting Dogs and he decided to help me. I gave him the grab and set back before the trainer with the controller saw him break. He didn't twitch a muscle on a throw down. He was started on a bark collar way before we ever started instilling field manners.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:39 pm

Good reply. I'll think it through.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:01 pm

Sharon wrote:Good reply. I'll think it through.

I should add that I do a LOT of clicker training and use a LOT of reward based techniques. My coming two year old is on Susan Garrett's recall program which is working when nothing else would and I was unwilling to whipdrive him in with the e-collar. He was on his way back the last time we had to drive two miles to get him.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:08 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Sharon wrote:Since dogs are place oriented, do you think the dog can make the connection between the bark collar - it stops if i don't bark, to "if i obey in the field I won't be corrected."

Not saying you are wrong ;just wondering.
As I said, we use shock correction immediately upon the infraction, so they associate the correction with the immediately preceeding action. They do generalize to other punishment, also. For example, I was working a flush for one of my Shooting Dogs and he decided to help me. I gave him the grab and set back before the trainer with the controller saw him break. He didn't twitch a muscle on a throw down. He was started on a bark collar way before we ever started instilling field manners.

What are you trying to say? Because a dig reacts to a form of traininbg doesn't say it is reacting to some prior punishment. You told the dog to stay put and it did. That's all you are saying happened.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:23 pm

I think we all need to know there are different methods of using the e-collar which is pretty evident if you listen to how people use it. I find I use it differently on different dogs. Like all other training there is not a right/wrong way , just like any other form of training. We need to get into a situation that doesn't involve living breathing animals if you really need a set of directions for any tools use that can not be deviated from. Someone that can not interpret the way that something needs to be done with a dog by the dog's actions is not a dog trainer.

This is exactly what is wrong with written explanations on how to train a dog. Anything you read that say it is the way to train every dog or people who think one person knows more about training than anyone else about training every dog are not doing you any great service. Dog trainers know how to read each dog and how they react to a given form of training and adjust their methods accordingly. That is the trainer that can help you get the job done and done well.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:28 pm

The Perfect Start DVD addresses it FAIRLY well. The ones that really understand it though, are the retriever guys. They really perfected it's usage and programs. I'd say you can get by with Perfect Start, or by visiting K-9's website. The advantage in doing it like the retriever guys do, is that you can't cause a dog to blink birds, unless you're an idiot, if you follow a basic program like Evan Graham's Smart Fetch. Probably the best thing right now is to watch and FOLLOW Smart Fetch, then Perfect Start.

trasmuson3 · Post by **trasmuson3** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:35 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments. Like I said before, I probably haven't introduced the collar correctly and therefore he is so collar shy. So do you recommend me putting the collar on him any time we even go out, and just let him get used to it? My only worry is that I will put it on him in he field and he will be timid and not come to me. Like I said he is a very timid dog, and I have to be careful with everything I do with him.

I have a tri tronic collar, but I was wondering if there is a good collar out there that has a low level of a stimulation or vibration before a shock, just to get him to pay attention and realize what he needs to do instead of going straight into a shock? Sorry, I am a newbie and just want to do the best I can. Thank you!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:40 pm

trasmuson3 wrote:Thanks everyone for the comments. Like I said before, I probably haven't introduced the collar correctly and therefore he is so collar shy. So do you recommend me putting the collar on him any time we even go out, and just let him get used to it? My only worry is that I will put it on him in he field and he will be timid and not come to me. Like I said he is a very timid dog, and I have to be careful with everything I do with him.

I have a tri tronic collar, but I was wondering if there is a good collar out there that has a low level of a stimulation or vibration before a shock, just to get him to pay attention and realize what he needs to do instead of going straight into a shock? Sorry, I am a newbie and just want to do the best I can. Thank you!

Which tri tronics collar do you have ...TT in my book is by far the best E collar out there I have used the others but always end up back with my TT

The Sport and the pro series I have the 100 has very low levels of stimulation.... I do not waste my time with tones and vibrate ...as the tug and taps from the leash and check cord on a regular collar has more stimulation value then the lower levels of the TT Pro and Sport series of E collar sure they cost more but your buying an American made product assembled here in America

Soft dogs more often then not have found a way to get out of doing something but again if the program you are using is precise and fair then you can help those so called soft dog respond and learn pouting and tantrums will not be a way out

Kep small steps and do not jump to the next step till you have the first step accomplished

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:42 pm

by trasmuson3 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:35 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments. Like I said before, I probably haven't introduced the collar correctly and therefore he is so collar shy. So do you recommend me putting the collar on him any time we even go out, and just let him get used to it? My only worry is that I will put it on him in he field and he will be timid and not come to me. Like I said he is a very timid dog, and I have to be careful with everything I do with him.

I have a tri tronic collar, but I was wondering if there is a good collar out there that has a low level of a stimulation or vibration before a shock, just to get him to pay attention and realize what he needs to do instead of going straight into a shock? Sorry, I am a newbie and just want to do the best I can. Thank you!

.....................................................................

I'm not saying this is what you should do, but i'll share the experience I had.
I bought a 2 yearold setter who had been abused with the collar etc. i was not very well versed in collars at that time, so i put the e-collar on and off we went. The dog would not leave my side in the field. Hmm. I took it off and left it off for 6 months. The dog had fine talent and we moved ahead quickly. When I tried it again at 6 months , he accepted it nervously but things moved ahead again. I didn't activate it for maybe a year.

Some have said , leave it on but don't activate it at all for ??/// months. That may also work.

Some collars have a tone button to use.

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:11 pm

I have all the same concerns your having, my dog is timid. Also biddable I do think with enough time I could have a broke dog without ever using the Ecollar. That said I have orderd the Tritronics classic 70 Ecollar, it will arrive in a few days. My plan has been to have my now 8 month Vizsla wear the collar on every outing we take, That is every day for the next 2 months. Ecollar in the Off position. All the training will remain the same, when we get to the 10month stage I will introduce the Tone only feature. at 1yr I will introduce the E correction at the lowest leveal necessary. That is my plan Im a total rokie first bird dog for me. Good luck and keep us informed with your results.

trasmuson3 · Post by **trasmuson3** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:25 pm

Yup im a total rookie as well, so I just want to do my best not to screw him up. I think that is what I will end up doing is having him wear it on all our outings and let him just get used to it and make it "fun" for him to have it on, meaning something fun happens when we put that on. From what I have read and understand, you are now supposed to comfort them when hey have he collar on, correct? Make it as if there is nothing out of the ordinary going on. Is this correct?

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:50 pm

IDK. I pretty much praise and encourage my young pup as much as possible, If I tell him to come and he doesn't, I will ignore it. Find something else throw the ball let him fetch or wait till he comes around and tell him come again then positive reinforcement, he never fails. I dont think this is any new revolutionary training method. Its just building trust and companionship with you and your dog, I have trained 2 german shepherds this way and they are amazing dogs never used a shock collar. But thats a different animal with different training expectations. One thing I have learned is there is no magic bullet.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:03 pm

zigzag wrote:IDK. I pretty much praise and encourage my young pup as much as possible, If I tell him to come and he doesn't, I will ignore it. Find something else throw the ball let him fetch or wait till he comes around and tell him come again then positive reinforcement, he never fails. I dont think this is any new revolutionary training method. Its just building trust and companionship with you and your dog, I have trained 2 german shepherds this way and they are amazing dogs never used a shock collar. But thats a different animal with different training expectations. One thing I have learned is there is no magic bullet.

There is a huge difference between training a pet and training a dog that is bred to hunt ..as happy praise and stuff ..are not a stronger drive then their desire to hunt and find a bird...JMHO a well bred hunting dog should want a bird more then a cookie at least in my kennel

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:10 pm

Go look at the recent thread on Attempting to Teach WHOA. In the photos, visualize replacing the collar and flank hitch (if the flank hitch is used) with an e-collar. What is being introduced is correction. Then, a new method is overlaid on the same contact points and eventually replaces the old correction of a pinch. When using force, i.e., making the dog turn off the stimulation, trainers often begin by using the collar as the dog is commanded to KENNEL. George Hickox has a pretty thorough description of this.

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:32 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
zigzag wrote:IDK. I pretty much praise and encourage my young pup as much as possible, If I tell him to come and he doesn't, I will ignore it. Find something else throw the ball let him fetch or wait till he comes around and tell him come again then positive reinforcement, he never fails. I dont think this is any new revolutionary training method. Its just building trust and companionship with you and your dog, I have trained 2 german shepherds this way and they are amazing dogs never used a shock collar. But thats a different animal with different training expectations. One thing I have learned is there is no magic bullet.

There is a huge difference between training a pet and training a dog that is bred to hunt ..as happy praise and stuff ..are not a stronger drive then their desire to hunt and find a bird...JMHO a well bred hunting dog should want a bird more then a cookie at least in my kennel

This is sound advise, At the end of the day your training a bird dog that should have a insatiable prey drive.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:45 am

Some dog's may develop and aversion to the ecollar. Everyone then takes off the collar and babies the dog. That's exactly the wrong thing to do. You have to make the dog work through the collar and not good dog him when a correction is made. Even if your level of stimulation is slightly high, they WILL learn to work through it.

It's a vastly misunderstood concept that dog's should be happy all of the time. A thoroughly trained dog will not be happy all of the time, at least in the training phases.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:28 am

It has always been generally accepted that the best and quickest way to train a dog is 70% positive and 30% negative. That is of course, ill all of the modern day trainers spend more time telling you how to train than actually doing it.

Dogs know there are consequences to some actions and there is no need for us to think that they can't be punished or corrected for things they do wrong. You just need to use your head and not go too far in either direction in my opinion.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:20 pm

Exactly right on the last to posts by "GH" and Ezzy. I kind of relate it to the new age philosophy of raising children. It uausally turns out just the opposite of what it was suppose to accomplish. You don't need to be cruel or unfair but you do have to have dicpline and be the boss. There will be times when they are not happy but you will end up with a well trained, well behaved and a happy dog that has great respect for you.

Charlie

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:07 pm

birddogger wrote:Exactly right on the last to posts by "GH" and Ezzy. I kind of relate it to the new age philosophy of raising children. It uausally turns out just the opposite of what it was suppose to accomplish. You don't need to be cruel or unfair but you do have to have dicpline and be the boss. There will be times when they are not happy but you will end up with a well trained, well behaved and a happy dog that has great respect for you.

Charlie

Yep. In the end they'll (kids, dogs, whatever) be happier because they'll be good citizens, capable of managing their impulses and getting along with others.

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Correct form of e collar training

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