How close is to close?

[gotpointers]

This whole subject has been very interesting and encouraging. I am going to breed my direct HTA littermates and keep all pups until the age of at least 5 months to observe results.

[Ron R]

I am going to breed my direct HTA littermates

You're crazy...How are thay bred on bottom?

[tn red]

I recently heard about a litter that was the result of an accidental breeding between litter mates. The results were not good with almost all having to be culled immediately. I have often wondered about this as line breeding is a synonym for inbreeding. I know the reason for line breeding and know it can produce great dogs, but how close is too close? When is the gene pool to shallow? I'm just looking for what most of you consider to be ethical.

Are you talking about dogs, because I herd they have been doing this in the south to make the family tree taller....

You care to elaborate more on this statement ? Im sure im taking it wrong.

[gotpointers]

I am going to breed my direct HTA littermates

You're crazy...How are thay bred on bottom?

I have been called that before
Dam is highris'n harlot out of honky tonk highrise and fiddlin bailee sue

[BigShooter]

Folks need to understand that canine genetics and human genetics are different. The additional chromosomes in the canine genome allow for much closer breedings, which are quite common and typical in pack animals.
RayG

This could be a bit misleading, Parker et al. (2004) showed that humans and dogs have similar levels of overall nucleotide diversity, which represent the overall number of nucleotide substitutions per base/pair. It is true canines clearly demonstrate more diversity as evidenced by the variations in size, coats, etc.

[tn red]

I recently heard about a litter that was the result of an accidental breeding between litter mates. The results were not good with almost all having to be culled immediately. I have often wondered about this as line breeding is a synonym for inbreeding. I know the reason for line breeding and know it can produce great dogs, but how close is too close? When is the gene pool to shallow? I'm just looking for what most of you consider to be ethical.

Are you talking about dogs, because I herd they have been doing this in the south to make the family tree taller....

You care to elaborate more on this statement ? Im sure im taking it wrong.

Guess not ,about what i thought from rainbow land

[ultracarry]

Lol you really take everything serious. BTW incest is legal in TN.

The first comment stemmed from deliverance.....

[RayGubernat]

Folks need to understand that canine genetics and human genetics are different. The additional chromosomes in the canine genome allow for much closer breedings, which are quite common and typical in pack animals.
RayG

This could be a bit misleading, Parker et al. (2004) showed that humans and dogs have similar levels of overall nucleotide diversity, which represent the overall number of nucleotide substitutions per base/pair. It is true canines clearly demonstrate more diversity as evidenced by the variations in size, coats, etc.

I am not a geneticist, so the relative significance of that particular piece of data is lost on me. In other words, I have no clue what you just said and have no idea if it has any significance in this context.

But I kinda think that there just might be several reasons why dogs evolved to have more chroomosomes than humans and have litters of (on average) 5-8, while people evolved to have (on average) one offspring at a time. One of those reasons(I think) just might be the likelihood of extremely close breeding that typically occurs in a pack environment with an alpha female and alpha male doing virtually all the breeding until they are replaced by a new alpha , which would typically be a son or daughter. In packs, this type of inbreeding occurs, generation after generation.

RayG

[cjhills]

Generally, in grey wolf packs a younger outside male runs off the old Alpha male and either takes up with the Alpha bitch or sometimes kills off the Alpha bitch and starts with a younger one. Sometimes the bitches kill off the old Alpha bitch and a new one takes the position. Also sometimes entire litters die for no explicable reason. When pack populations get low more than one female may have pups. But , inbreeding is quite strictly controlled by nature.
CJ

[SCT]

A little off course but look at ungulates like mule deer. In any given herd they'll winter on the same real estate year after year. The dominant bucks can be in breeding dominance for 4-6 years. I'm fairly certain his daughters are being bred to him as well as his sons breeding his daughters. There's "out-crossing" as well but nature allows some pretty tight breeding.

[RayGubernat]

Generally, in grey wolf packs a younger outside male runs off the old Alpha male and either takes up with the Alpha bitch or sometimes kills off the Alpha bitch and starts with a younger one. Sometimes the bitches kill off the old Alpha bitch and a new one takes the position. Also sometimes entire litters die for no explicable reason. When pack populations get low more than one female may have pups. But , inbreeding is quite strictly controlled by nature.
CJ

That may be, but the younger females would be direct descendants of the alpha female so even with an "outside" male, things are still pretty tight in the breeding department. And that "outside " male just might be pretty closely related anyway since "new" wolf packs generally start by splitting off from an existing pack when there are too many members for the one pack to hunt efficiently and care for all its members. Its not like the "outside " wolf came from 500 miles away. If the younger females kill off the alpha female and one takes her place, it will very likely be a direct daughter so you will have father/daughter breeding. That too is pretty close.

RayG

[ElhewPointer]

http://erinkennels.com/pedigrees/30.pdf

This answers the question to me.

[tn red]

Glad you know every line in a movie like deliverance & yes i take i serious
lets not hijack this thread you have more to say or prove take it to pm

[ultracarry]

Yes sir!

[gotpointers]

http://erinkennels.com/pedigrees/30.pdf

This answers the question to me.

After seeing the result of the above posted breeding. I need to find 2004 National CH Millers Online, CH Millers Southern Pride or CH Wiggins River Knot and have one of them and their little sister spend some time here "catching up on old times"
They can re-enact a scene from " joe dirt" over at my place

[BigShooter]

Folks need to understand that canine genetics and human genetics are different. The additional chromosomes in the canine genome allow for much closer breedings, which are quite common and typical in pack animals.
RayG

This could be a bit misleading, Parker et al. (2004) showed that humans and dogs have similar levels of overall nucleotide diversity, which represent the overall number of nucleotide substitutions per base/pair. It is true canines clearly demonstrate more diversity as evidenced by the variations in size, coats, etc.

I am not a geneticist, so the relative significance of that particular piece of data is lost on me. In other words, I have no clue what you just said and have no idea if it has any significance in this context.

But I kinda think that there just might be several reasons why dogs evolved to have more chroomosomes than humans and have litters of (on average) 5-8, while people evolved to have (on average) one offspring at a time. One of those reasons(I think) just might be the likelihood of extremely close breeding that typically occurs in a pack environment with an alpha female and alpha male doing virtually all the breeding until they are replaced by a new alpha , which would typically be a son or daughter. In packs, this type of inbreeding occurs, generation after generation.

RayG

Ray - look up DNA on the internet & see if you can find "nucleic". Basically dogs & humans have similar levels of overall genetic information diversity.