Stud dog contract?!?

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:27 pm

I'm in the process of starting to Stud my GSP Wyatt out to approved bitches. I'm wondering if anyone uses a stud contract and if you all have any opinions on them. I'm looking for pro's and con's, for I'm unsure myself what I'm going to do. I'm very new to this all and I'm just looking to protect myself and my stud dog and make sure that all parties are on the same page. I've researched on-line and found quite a few but most were for "show bread dogs" and not "performance bread dogs" such as Wyatt. I think in many cases a gentleman's hand shank would be good enough but I'm looking for the opinion of others. Thanks for any input.

Jon

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:22 pm

Contract for what? Payment terms? Health? Fertility?

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:39 pm

Contract for the whole process. Yes payment, and all the "What if's"and responsibility's that take place and that may arise.
There are plenty of examples of stud contracts online. They cover numerous things! just wondering if any of you all use them

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:35 pm

First, you should talk to your breeder about what NOT to breed to, then you should outline your own goals for your dog. You have the right of refusal, but you are not the breeder of any litter he sires unless you own, co-own or lease the dam. Therefore, you should only accept breedings that meet your expectations. If you wouldn't buy it, don't breed it. The rest is simply selling a product.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:06 pm

It's dog semen....... I wish I had a male....

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:06 pm

When (if) I ever have a stud I believe is worth breeding I will probably not require too much of the bitch or her owners. Probably just a Brucellosis test, payment will have to be paid before the service (or agreed that I get pick puppy) and I will let it be known that if the breeding doesn't take then they get a rebreed.

I've never known a case of Brucellosis, but I've heard of it and how serious it can be. If someone is serious about breeding a bitch then doing this test would not be too much hassle for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:25 pm

From AKC:

A Guide To Breeding Your Dog 6 - Finalize Stud Contract You have performed all necessary health checks, genetic screenings, and selected the perfect mate for your bitch. Now it's time to work out the details of the mating. It is an excellent idea to work out a contract with the owner of the stud dog before breeding takes place. The agreement concerning stud fees should be in writing and clearly state all obligations and circumstances. The contract should be signed by all parties to the transaction, and each signer should receive a copy. The stud fee is set by the stud dog's owner. The mode of payment may differ. The stud owner may request a cash fee, "pick of the litter," one or more puppies from the resulting litter, etc. The collection of the stud fee is the stud owner's responsibility. The contract may state that the owner of the sire is not obligated to sign an AKC litter registration application until the stud fee has been paid. Keep in mind that the AKC cannot settle disputes between individuals in regards to contracts and breeding arrangements.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:56 am

One thing. Unless you have a super Dog and are a master at promotion you are not going to have people knocking down your door to breed to your dog. There are a lot of choices out there CJ

SeniorCoot · Post by **SeniorCoot** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:18 am

I check out with whom Jake will have an allaince and then go see bitch- and speak with owner- I have known all his girls/owners so far- and we do it on a hand shake- contracts are for low life lawyers not me.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:57 am

I write things down...not because folks are low lifes...or because I don't trust people. Just because that what people hear can all to often ne something different than what you said. Being clear...black on white...keeps your friends and prevents enemies.

The agreement should include the disclosure of any pertinent health issues....as well as those of parents and siblings. If a sibling and a parent blew out ACLs by the age of 4, I want to know.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:58 am

I just let people know what I quarantee. It is probably better to have it down in writing, tho. I will refuse a dog if it just does not feel good, basically...I also feel somewhat resposible to help people sell the pups if from my male, so will always send overflo puppy buyers to the Dam owner.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:36 pm

snips wrote:I just let people know what I quarantee. It is probably better to have it down in writing, tho. I will refuse a dog if it just does not feel good, basically...I also feel somewhat resposible to help people sell the pups if from my male, so will always send overflo puppy buyers to the Dam owner.

This was always my my method too. Sorry, I just grew up before written contracts and treating everyone like they are going to steal everything they can from you. Most people are honest though that percentage seems to be getting smaller all of the time.

Ezzy

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:snips wrote:
I just let people know what I quarantee. It is probably better to have it down in writing, tho. I will refuse a dog if it just does not feel good, basically...I also feel somewhat resposible to help people sell the pups if from my male, so will always send overflo puppy buyers to the Dam owner.

This was always my my method too. Sorry, I just grew up before written contracts and treating everyone like they are going to steal everything they can from you. Most people are honest though that percentage seems to be getting smaller all of the time.

Ezzy

Ditto!!!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:42 pm

If the time ever comes that I have to write & sign a contract everytime I sell a dog,sign one,or require one,for stud service I will quit.
Most require a negative Brucellosis test & payment at time of service that's pretty much it but owner of the sire can refuse service for any reason he chooses.
I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:11 pm

If the method of stud fee is variable, then a written agteement should be used. If a stud is used in a multiple sire litter, one should also be used which indicates that the pups be DNA tested prior to final sign off.

Crystal kennels · Post by **Crystal kennels** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:13 pm

Jonathan I have one if you want me to send it to you. You can change things or whatever to suit your needs.

Judy

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:33 pm

+ 1 on the vonzep... reply

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:42 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If the time ever comes that I have to write & sign a contract everytime I sell a dog,sign one,or require one,for stud service I will quit.
Most require a negative Brucellosis test & payment at time of service that's pretty much it but owner of the sire can refuse service for any reason he chooses.
I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

Well I may be one of those "younger generation" people but the truth is there are dishonest,untrustworthy people in ALL generations! Please dont discriminate on age. face it the times are constantly changing! I have to much to loose not to protect myself!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:53 pm

Doogie you asked I answered I have been at this over 38 yrs never signed any contracts buying,selling,or breeding,& I have bred to some BIG name stud dogs.
If my word isn't good enough then that piece of paper is useless but then again I'm not the suing type.

Good Luck to yah.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:56 pm

1doogie wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If the time ever comes that I have to write & sign a contract everytime I sell a dog,sign one,or require one,for stud service I will quit.
Most require a negative Brucellosis test & payment at time of service that's pretty much it but owner of the sire can refuse service for any reason he chooses.
I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

Well I may be one of those "younger generation" people but the truth is there are dishonest,untrustworthy people in ALL generations! Please dont discriminate on age. face it the times are constantly changing! I have to much to loose not to protect myself!

What do you have to "lose"? I am just curious. Guy calls wants to breed to your male, you either say yes or no. Take the $$$ and breed the dog. Its fairly simple.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:40 pm

1doogie wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If the time ever comes that I have to write & sign a contract everytime I sell a dog,sign one,or require one,for stud service I will quit.
Most require a negative Brucellosis test & payment at time of service that's pretty much it but owner of the sire can refuse service for any reason he chooses.
I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

Well I may be one of those "younger generation" people but the truth is there are dishonest,untrustworthy people in ALL generations! Please dont discriminate on age. face it the times are constantly changing! I have to much to loose not to protect myself!

Maybe you should consider breeding only if you can lease a co-ownership until you are comfortable with the success of the pups.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:20 pm

1doogie wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If the time ever comes that I have to write & sign a contract everytime I sell a dog,sign one,or require one,for stud service I will quit.
Most require a negative Brucellosis test & payment at time of service that's pretty much it but owner of the sire can refuse service for any reason he chooses.
I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

Well I may be one of those "younger generation" people but the truth is there are dishonest,untrustworthy people in ALL generations! Please dont discriminate on age. face it the times are constantly changing! I have to much to loose not to protect myself!

You have no more to lose than anyone else. It is just as we stated, a younger crowd with a whole different view of our society. I agree there are more dishonest people but when you think everyone is dishonest I think it many times indicates a certain level of dishonsty within that person. And though there are more dishonest people there are more honest ones as well. I have lived a very sheltered life and have not had a problem with any of them yet though I have refused to deal with a couple once I met them.

Ezzy

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:24 pm

Gosh, you asked for opinions and it appears that your mind is already set on some type of contract. Fine..it's your dog and I wish you luck. But what exactly are you trying to protect yourself from?..Not trying to be sarcastic, but just don't "get it". Thanks

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:49 pm

JKP wrote:I write things down...not because folks are low lifes...or because I don't trust people. Just because that what people hear can all to often ne something different than what you said. Being clear...black on white...keeps your friends and prevents enemies.

+1
Misunderstandings are avoided when both parties know what is expected of each other. Look at the thread about the guy who bought that $1500 setter from a "reputable" breeder that won't take the dog back. Don't get me wrong, a word and a hand shake should be all that is necessary, but the country we live in is departing from that, unfortunatly.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:35 pm

brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:I write things down...not because folks are low lifes...or because I don't trust people. Just because that what people hear can all to often ne something different than what you said. Being clear...black on white...keeps your friends and prevents enemies.
+1
Misunderstandings are avoided when both parties know what is expected of each other. Look at the thread about the guy who bought that $1500 setter from a "reputable" breeder that won't take the dog back. Don't get me wrong, a word and a hand shake should be all that is necessary, but the country we live in is departing from that, unfortunatly.

I believe if you look back the breeder offered to take it back and was told NO. And then later when asked again she said she couldn't take it right then. As it has been stated a thousand times a piece of paper won't change it much if at all.

Ezzy

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:45 am

ezzy333 wrote:
brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:I write things down...not because folks are low lifes...or because I don't trust people. Just because that what people hear can all to often ne something different than what you said. Being clear...black on white...keeps your friends and prevents enemies.
+1
Misunderstandings are avoided when both parties know what is expected of each other. Look at the thread about the guy who bought that $1500 setter from a "reputable" breeder that won't take the dog back. Don't get me wrong, a word and a hand shake should be all that is necessary, but the country we live in is departing from that, unfortunatly.
I believe if you look back the breeder offered to take it back and was told NO. And then later when asked again she said she couldn't take it right then. As it has been stated a thousand times a piece of paper won't change it much if at all.

Ezzy

I'm not saying a piece of paper changes anything. It does however give each party an idea of what is expected. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the dog/ pay for the stud/ send your dog with the pro/ ......................

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:52 am

I'd say whether an agreement might be a good idea or unnecessary depends a lot upon the circumstances of the situation. You have to protect yourself from manipulators as much as from folks who are outright dishonest. The most important element for a good agreement is for both sides to think in advance about the various scenarios that could occur & get a mutual understanding of how each situation would be handled. For many folks just going through that thinking process & talking about it in advance is sufficient, others are more comfortable memorializing the understanding in writing. Neither method always produces perfect results. The key to a good agreement however isn't just outlining the obligations of the parties but coming up with how any violation of the agreement will be "cured" or resolved.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:51 am

If somebody asks me to sign a contract it makes me (right or wrong) distrust them. You literally have nothing to lose and you may be over thinking this. Your just breeding a dog. I believe that the owner of the female has more to worry about ie. getting money back if the breeding or re-breeding does'nt take. The only thing that I would care about is the health check. Good Luck.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:40 am

Ron R wrote:If somebody asks me to sign a contract it makes me (right or wrong) distrust them. You literally have nothing to lose and you may be over thinking this. Your just breeding a dog. I believe that the owner of the female has more to worry about ie. getting money back if the breeding or re-breeding does'nt take. The only thing that I would care about is the health check. Good Luck.

Amen

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:11 am

There is also the responsibility and cost for care of a female dog. Breeding for top performance dogs isn't as simple as driving one a few miles a couple of times.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:28 am

Cajun Casey wrote:There is also the responsibility and cost for care of a female dog. Breeding for top performance dogs isn't as simple as driving one a few miles a couple of times.

Can you explain the difference? I have no idea what a dogs performance has to do with changes in a stud contract. Fill us in.

Ezzy

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:31 am

I have bred to outside studs probably 20 to 25 times and I have never been asked to sign anything. Most of the time no money changed hands at the time of breeding. When the pups were born I mailed a check to the owner of the sire and he mailed me the appropriate paper work. A couple of times I have paid at time of breeding with the understanding that I could bring the female, or a different female, back at her next heat cycle if the breeding was not successful. Every transaction regarding dogs that I have ever been involved in was done on a hand shake. I have been burned a couple of times but I don't think a signed document would have changed any thing.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:48 pm

I find the tone of some of this conversation somewhat disappointing. "Dishonest", "untrustworthy" "low life". Man, what type of crowed are you running with ??? I have had bird dogs, "performance " dogs since 1977. Field trialed for 20 years and now just a pretty serious hunter. Looking back I think I've met two people I would not trust. Guess what, would never have any business dealings with them and very little social contact. I think most of us can be a pretty good judge of character. You have a good looking, very well breed dog from an exceptionally reputable breeder. I prefer to take the other approach and will to the day I die. I believe most people are good and honest. I'm either smart enough or old enough to stay away from the others. We all live vicariously through our dogs. It's just obvious to me, some more than others. Would still like to hear from you on what your trying to protect yourself from. For your own peace of mind, I would just get suggestions from your breeder and get on with it. Once again, good luck. I'm sure he will sire many quality pups. If I were to get a dog from those lines, I'd be calling 911 your breeder for sure. I don't think you'd trust me.

As usual, all jmo

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:01 pm

I hav always paid a stud fee at time of service (unless otherwise discussed) and expected stud fee at time of service...I quarantee 2 live pups or repeat service..To dog of owners choice...Pretty simple.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:21 pm

A crook is a crook,sign all the papers you want & he is still a crook!!

I guess it's like this,it can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it.

I see it the same as Brenda does,pretty simple!!

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:55 pm

I have used Rick and Brenda's studs two times, a handshake from one and a hug from the other. I want tell you which from whom . Pretty simple.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:18 pm

vols fan wrote:I have used Rick and Brenda's studs two times, a handshake from one and a hug from the other. I want tell you which from whom . Pretty simple.

You could use one of my dogs but neither one will shake hands or give hugs. I'll bet it was Fritz that shook your hand and Sam who gave you the hug. :roll:

:roll:

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:30 pm

A breeding contract has nothing to do with crooks, low lifes,honest, dishonest or anything else it just spells out what is expected from each party. I guess I would question why anybody would have a problem with a simple contract. Maybe the people that have the problem have something to hide. We also gaurantee two live puppies and either a return in the next season, a different bitch or no pay. I think people should get something for their money. My stud dogs are usually up for a do over. We have bred with stud owners who make no gaurantees. They say the problem has to be with the bitch. I think it cost very little to try again. So why not it ,just seems fair.
We don't require payment until the litter is born,but we do before we sign off on the litter registration.
If you want to do a contract do it. The handshakes eventually lead to somebody thinking they didn't get a fair shake. It simply makes things easier and less chance of misunderstandings. Anybody who says they never had a misunderstanding hasn't bred many dogs or is lying.
It's all good. Good luck CJ

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:48 pm

Ezzy, you were half correct, Fritz on handshake but the hug from Logan. I simply followered that same procedure when i bred Dougie to one of Fred Rice's bitches. Pups due this week.Still pretty simple.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:13 pm

[quote="cjhills"]The handshakes eventually lead to somebody thinking they didn't get a fair shake. It simply makes things easier and less chance of misunderstandings. Anybody who says they never had a misunderstanding hasn't bred many dogs or is lying.[/quote]

We have never signed a contract or had anybody sign a contract. in 40 yrs. of breeding. Howie has bred many dogs in his life time and never a misunderstanding, not once. So I guess he's lying...

IMO the person with the female has more risk. If your shipping there is risk, someone else caring for your female, there is risk. The stud dog stays at home . Where is the risk? We have let our males go to the female a couple of times. We know the folks well and our males would be well taken of.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:32 pm

Well now we have added "lying" to the equation. Great

If the original poster decides to use a contract, I would hope he shares the key points with us. One thing for sure, Wyatt should throw some good looking pups. Gook luck

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:35 pm

We have never signed a contract or had anybody sign a contract. in 40 yrs. of breeding. Howie has bred many dogs in his life time and never a misunderstanding, not once. So I guess his lying...

I guess I am a liar too. 50 plus years and still standing though.

Ezzy

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:48 pm

I guess there are alot of us Liars replying to this thread & if we were trying to hide anything we wouldn't comment at all.Doogie ask our thoughts on the contract & we have given our honest anwers & is the way we have done things for many yrs.
A simple fact is MR CJHILLS I have been told by others that I'm TOO HONEST.

use your imagination on the symbol

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:05 pm

I would like to thank all of you for your opinions especially the very sincere PM's i received. To be honest I'm a little disappointed in how this thread went. I never intended for this to turn into a negative thread talking about liars, cheaters, and the scum of the earth. I didn't realize that the "dog world" was exempt from this. It was more about misunderstandings and making sure I START this venture all on the right foot! I don't have 40+ years of experience and was looking to you all if you ever had any bad experiences with the breeding process. I'm very happy to hear that you all have had such positive and flawless experience with breeding. That makes me very happy and exited.

As for what I have to loose...... That would be my reputation. I want to make sure I start this as professional as I can and to build my reputation to be just that, Professional and honest. To myself that's a lot to loose!!! I have one heck of a dog and I don't want to do anything without properly thinking it though such as breeding. Like I said this post was never meant to be negative about anything especially the "younger generation" not being able to function with out something such as a contract! That's not what I was looking for. I was thinking more on the lines of people telling me that they have and never needed a contract, didn't have one and wish they did, or didn't have one and never needed one. Again that you all for you comments.

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:07 pm

[A simple fact is MR CJHILLS I have been told by others that I'm TOO HONEST.

use your imagination on the symbol[/quote]

:roll: REALLY?!?!?!?!?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:14 pm

YES REALLY.If you would like to ask anyone that I have delt with I can give that info.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:23 pm

1doggie, appreciate your comment. Don't know of a contract that will protect your reputation. It is your ongoing conduct and behavior that creates and maintains a reputation. Imo, just do the right thing, as I'm sure you will as, again imo, the great majority of the sporting dog world does, and everything will be fine. Once again, whatever you do, you have a darn good looking dog and I'm sure will throw some great looking pups. Good luck again and keep us informed.

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:24 pm

[

use your imagination on the symbol[/quote]

I was talking about your so kind and gentlemen like gesture!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:30 pm

Yeah & you would walk away if some one called you dishonest & a liar as CJHILLS did?? You asked a question about a contract we gave honest answers.You could have checked the archives & found your answer about who thinks what of contracts.
Good Luck To ya whether you use a contract or not.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:35 pm

IMO a contract doesn't protect or build a persons reputation but a persons word,and honesty does.