Stud dog contract?!?

JoshHaker · Post by **JoshHaker** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:38 pm

I don't trust people who want everything in writing but the younger generation can't function with out them,so it seems.

[/quote]

I consider myself young (under 30) and conduct business on a daily basis sometimes for thousands of dollars with no contract. I am very hopeful for our nation when I look back over the years and see how rare a payment issue is (services are always prior to payment).

As far as the stud service I wouldn't be all that worried about a written contract.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:43 pm

Exactly!! Mrs.Cage

I have never claimed to be a gentleman Doogie especialy when some one is calling me dishonest & a liar.

Josh I did roofing for 10 to 15 yrs on my own & never wrote one contract & unlike some that do write contracts I never took one dime untill the job was completed because I believe that's the way it should be.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:02 pm

1doogie wrote:I would like to thank all of you for your opinions especially the very sincere PM's i received. To be honest I'm a little disappointed in how this thread went. I never intended for this to turn into a negative thread talking about liars, cheaters, and the scum of the earth. I didn't realize that the "dog world" was exempt from this. It was more about misunderstandings and making sure I START this venture all on the right foot! I don't have 40+ years of experience and was looking to you all if you ever had any bad experiences with the breeding process. I'm very happy to hear that you all have had such positive and flawless experience with breeding. That makes me very happy and exited.

As for what I have to loose...... That would be my reputation. I want to make sure I start this as professional as I can and to build my reputation to be just that, Professional and honest. To myself that's a lot to loose!!! I have one heck of a dog and I don't want to do anything without properly thinking it though such as breeding. Like I said this post was never meant to be negative about anything especially the "younger generation" not being able to function with out something such as a contract! That's not what I was looking for. I was thinking more on the lines of people telling me that they have and never needed a contract, didn't have one and wish they did, or didn't have one and never needed one. Again that you all for you comments.

I think we are all a little disappointed in how this whole thread went down. When someone asks for opinions and then we he gets them he argues with their validity makes one wonder just why you asked. And when asked about that you told us it was because you have such a good dog. Granted, you have a good one, but many of us have good ones. Even the breeder of your pup told you how she does it and even if you don't think our dogs are the caliber of yours, you should know that she has several that still rank above yours. And that was good enough either.

Stop and think, if you really have a question, it seems that Brenda could supply the answers for you. If you are just trying to tell us you have a dog better than the rest of us, you might get an argument but in reality I think we are all aware of whet your pup has accomplishe. But I winder if you know what our dogs have accomplished?

As far as what you have to lose, like I said before not one iota more than any of us. If it is your reputation you are worried about, then stop and think what you may be doing to it right here. Don't think you have ruined it but you sure aren't enhancing it one bit.

Ezzy

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:13 pm

I'm truely sorry if I offended anyone! Not my intent at all!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:57 am

I too am sorry if I offended some people. But I talk to people every day who expected something different than they got out of a breeding. Both stud dog owners and bitch owners. Some of these people have bred with the very same dogs whose owners are posting on this forum and say they never had a issue, some have bred with some fairly popular names in the GSP world and have had some issues. Usually not a big deal but enough to cause a bit of a problem. It is easy for phone conversations and e-mails to be misunderstood. A simple written agreement can help eliminate some misunderstandings and I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. I wouldn't breed my bitch again without one, at least not with someone I didn't know.
Some people won't do a natural breeding because they don't want to risk injury to the dogs, so there must be at least a possibility of a problem. One fairly large kennel I know has quit breeding outside bitches because of the issues.
I payed $1,000 dollar stud fee and made two 600 mile trips with my bitch which didn't take. I was a wee bit unhappy when the stud owner told me it was a problem with my dog not hers and I was just out $1,000 dollars. The bitch had no problems on the next heat with a different dog.
Incidentally, I also have a full sister to OP's dog from a different litter. She is a very stylish,nice bitch but there are many out there that are just as good.
Good Luck, Have a nice Independence Day . That's what gives us the right to go on here and insult people CJ

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:49 am

Good Luck, Have a nice Independence Day . That's what gives us the right to go on here and insult people CJcjhills
Rank: Master Hunter

Posts: 212
Joined: 28 Jan 2012, 08:37
Location: aitkin,mn
Private messageWebsite

I don't think so. That's what gives you the right to free speach in public. The owner of this board is who give you the right to get on here and follow their rules.

Ezzy

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:38 am

I don't mean to be blunt but if it is in writing you can't miss understand it. I had a problem with a good friend of mine we made a deal on stud service and he had first pick and he picked than the pups changed in the few weeks after he picked and the one he chose was not the one he wanted.

JoshHaker · Post by **JoshHaker** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:59 am

S&J gsp wrote:I don't mean to be blunt but if it is in writing you can't miss understand it.

Have you ever met an attorney?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:20 am

Writing is no different then words everyone can get a different meaning of written words just aswell as spoken words.Look at all the written standards of the breeds no 2 people understand them the same.
If you go to court over that contract you will have different arguments over the same words & only one will win.I have better things to do then argue in court & if a problem does arise I think an agreement to both parties can be settled.I would do what ever I think is best for the dog not worried about my feelings,I really don't see what kind of problem could occur over stud service.I have never bred to a stud that didn't include a return service if the female didn't catch,now if you buy semen you are on your own after that & that's understood.You pay for the service at the time of service after all you are paying for stud service not buying pups.
I have never been asked to sign any contract of any kind while dealing with dogs,not buying,not selling,not breeding,& not by my trainer or handler, & I won't.
I don't understand why everything has to be made so difficult now days.It takes most of the day to buy a car because of all the paper work & red tape,you can't just make the deal & be out of there like it used to be & we wonder why things have become so expensive.You say the world has & is changing well your right but is it for the better??

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:02 am

cjhills wrote:I payed $1,000 dollar stud fee and made two 600 mile trips with my bitch which didn't take. I was a wee bit unhappy when the stud owner told me it was a problem with my dog not hers and I was just out $1,000 dollars. The bitch had no problems on the next heat with a different dog.

Jerry, My husband took a female to AZ. yrs. ago to be bred. Our female would not except the male. Dons vet did 3 A I's , checked the males sperm count, spent 7 days in a motel. Long story short, our female did not take. Howie and the owner of the stud did everything they could to make the breeding happen. Alot of money spent for a breeding that did not take. The breeding was not meant to be. Howie called Don and told Don no pups. Don had a check in the mail for stud fee the next day, a mans word good. Her next heat we bred to our own stud, 11 pups.

We had a outside female not take this spring, we bred 4 times. A week later the female spiked a super high temp. owner took his female to the vet, tick born illness.
the vet said the female would more then likely absorb the pups. that happened. No fault of ours or the owner of the female. Howie returned the stud fee. Everything we do or involved in is gentlemans word. We only have so much control. The key is to make things right when s!@t happens.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:42 pm

Being from the old school I do not do contracts.

We give the owner of the bitch two options: (1) They can pay stud fee and get their stud certificate at the time of service with the understanding that if the bitch doesn't take they get return service or refund, their choice. or (2) They can take the bitch home without paying stud fee and without a stud certificate. Once they have a live litter they make payment and I sign the stud certificate. I prefer option number two but it's left to the owner of the bitch to choose.

In over 40 years of bird dogging I have been burned only twice.....both were preachers. :roll:

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:53 pm

That is exactly my point. Stuff happens. I assumed i would get some sort of a gaurantee. I should have asked and I didn't. A simple agreement would have solve the problem. I would not have bred the bitch with that dog. It is simple easy and I can't see why anybody would have a problem. I will never breed my bitch again with out a written agreement. I don't see why anyone would object. Losing a friend over a stud fee is not worth it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:14 pm

cjhills wrote:That is exactly my point. Stuff happens. I assumed i would get some sort of a gaurantee. I should have asked and I didn't. A simple agreement would have solve the problem. I would not have bred the bitch with that dog. It is simple easy and I can't see why anybody would have a problem. I will never breed my bitch again with out a written agreement. I don't see why anyone would object. Losing a friend over a stud fee is not worth it.

What kind of a problem did you have? I can't imagine what iy would be for something this simple and uncomplicated.

On the other hand glad to see you know exactly what to do now. Still wonder just what kind of a problem would a simple piece of paper keep you from having?

Give us some answers and maybe some will change their minds. Never too old to learn.

Ezzy

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:40 pm

highcotton wrote:Being from the old school I do not do contracts.

We give the owner of the bitch two options: (1) They can pay stud fee and get their stud certificate at the time of service with the understanding that if the bitch doesn't take they get return service or refund, their choice. or (2) They can take the bitch home without paying stud fee and without a stud certificate. Once they have a live litter they make payment and I sign the stud certificate. I prefer option number two but it's left to the owner of the bitch to choose.

In over 40 years of bird dogging I have been burned only twice.....both were preachers. :roll:

Thats hillarious! (only bc I can relate) - I've got a great (well, notsomuch "Great" but "interesting nonetheless") story about a small town preacher that is probably still laughing his arse off at my and many others expense. :roll:

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:00 pm

Unless you have one really good dog, youll be lucky to breed it two or three times, you shouldnt need a contract for that, This is a lot of something about nothing, even Snowatch's daddy doesn't require a contract!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:46 pm

I was lucky enough to grow up around several of the top major circuit handlers. There were many national champions in their care and a lot of bitches shipped in for breeding. With those old timers a hand shake was all that was needed. I can only emagine what they would have said (or done) if someone had put a contract in front of them. They would have taken it as a lack of trust and most likely invited them to go to h##l and take the contract with them.

I guess things are different now to some extent but I still believe that, for the most part, hunting dog people are honest. It takes several conversations between owners to evaluate a breeding pair. During that process I can usually get a pretty good idea of what type person I'm dealing with. If I get bad vibes during that process the breeding doesn't happen. It' not hard to seperate the dog jockey from the serious breeder.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:02 pm

There you go I agree 100% with highcotton that's the way I feel if you ask me to sign a contract it's an insult & I don't trust you anymore then you trust me.
I have said this before & it seems to upset some but I believe the younger generation never did business with a handshake & their word & seem to think everyone is out to screw them.
I have sons from the younger generation & they have told me I'm out of touch with the way things are done today & maybe that's true but I still believe in the old way & won't do it any different.
I have never defaulted on any loans or been bank rupt,I believe if you borrow money you pay it back if it means you do with out food on the table untill it's paid.That's the way I was raised & that's the way I have lived my life,so if my word is not good enough you can be on your way.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:54 pm

Guys, I don't think people have changed as much as society has. There has been a complete shift in how we live. People know longer know their neighbor or talk to them, they read the paper and all they see is the bad things that happen, and when you don't know anyone they assume everyone is bad.

We used to know our neighbors, they were included in our circle of friends. We walked on their property without asking, we helped them till everyone had their work done without being asked or being paid. We traded tools and equipment and we treated their stuff like it was our own.

But today we teach our kids that no one can be trusted, and you don't help anyone unless they offer to pay you. Is it any wonder that everyone needs a sheet of paper to protect themselves and it all stems from the lack of trust of the strangers that we used to call friends. A completely different way of life and I don't think better.

If a persons word is not good nothing else he can give you will change that. When we insist on a piece of paper all we are saying is that your word is no good. I never believed that and I still don't. I grew up with house doors that had no locks, now mine do but often are not used.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:21 pm

I don't need locks. I have German shorthairs.

I looked through some contracts after this topic piqued my interest and it seems to me the major issue is establishing liability for the care of the female. Fee payments were fairly straighforward. I can see where having some things in writing would be in the best interest of both parties. I have a friend who had a bitch contract pseudomonas as a result of AI and getting that sorted out was a nightmare.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:44 pm

1doogie » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:27 pm
"I'm in the process of starting to Stud my GSP Wyatt out to approved bitches. I'm wondering if anyone uses a stud contract and if you all have any opinions on them? I'm looking for pro's and con's, for I'm unsure myself of what I'm going to do. I'm very new to this all and I'm just looking to protect myself and my stud dog and make sure that all parties are on the same page. I've researched on-line and found quite a few but most were for "show bred dogs" and not "performance bred dogs" such as Wyatt. I think in many cases a gentleman's hand shake would be good enough , but I'm looking for the opinion of others. Thanks for any input.: quote
Jon

......................................................................

A young man nicely asks a simple question and @#$%^&*() . He won't be asking any more.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:05 pm

Sharon wrote:1doogie » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:27 pm
"I'm in the process of starting to Stud my GSP Wyatt out to approved bitches. I'm wondering if anyone uses a stud contract and if you all have any opinions on them? I'm looking for pro's and con's, for I'm unsure myself of what I'm going to do. I'm very new to this all and I'm just looking to protect myself and my stud dog and make sure that all parties are on the same page. I've researched on-line and found quite a few but most were for "show bred dogs" and not "performance bred dogs" such as Wyatt. I think in many cases a gentleman's hand shake would be good enough , but I'm looking for the opinion of others. Thanks for any input.: quote
Jon

......................................................................

A young man nicely asks a simple question and @#$%^&*() . He won't be asking any more.

He asked and he recieved. If that keeps him from asking more it is not our fault but I just don't see that happening because there was a lively discussion on topic.

Ezzy

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:16 pm

You have a great looking dog. I have witnessed him at the trials and can imagine that he will throw some amazing pups. If I was into shorter tails, I would be one to take a pup from him.

Protect your dog. Make sure that all the right tests were done to secure your dogs health. Once that is accomplished, decide how you want to be reimbursed. If you are looking for a pup out of him then make that agreement. If not, then get the money up front but understand that you may have to rebreed if the female doesn't take. other than that, just keep running that fine specimen of a dog and have fun.

Don't worry about the rest.

Joe

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:That is exactly my point. Stuff happens. I assumed i would get some sort of a gaurantee. I should have asked and I didn't. A simple agreement would have solve the problem. I would not have bred the bitch with that dog. It is simple easy and I can't see why anybody would have a problem. I will never breed my bitch again with out a written agreement. I don't see why anyone would object. Losing a friend over a stud fee is not worth it.
What kind of a problem did you have? I can't imagine what iy would be for something this simple and uncomplicated.

On the other hand glad to see you know exactly what to do now. Still wonder just what kind of a problem would a simple piece of paper keep you from having?

Give us some answers and maybe some will change their minds. Never too old to learn.

Ezzy

An agreement which stated that the stud dog owner makes no gaurantees as to the success of the breeding would have save me a grand and 12 hrs on the road. Plus I would feel a lot better about the owner of the stud. I already stated what the problem was, I assumed their would be a gaurantee and there wasn't. I didn't ask and she didn't tell But,I still don't think it was right.
In Ms Cages case what if the stud owner said "sorry pal my dog is good it's your bitch that has the problem I'm keeping the stud fee" would you feel that great or in the case of your dog if you said" I never said anything about pups my dog is good it has to be yours". Maybe you are this wonderful fair and honest person, but this may come as a surprise to you, some aren't .
I am not trying to change anybodie's mind I couldn't care less who breeds who to what and what happens in anybody elses kennel. I simply stated I think a simple agreement, stating health test requirements, gaurantees,fees and when payment is expected is a good idea. It won't eliminate real bad guys but it can save a lot of misunderstandings among good guys.
I'm not so sure about never to old to learn. CJ

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:39 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:You have a great looking dog. I have witnessed him at the trials and can imagine that he will throw some amazing pups. If I was into shorter tails, I would be one to take a pup from him.

Protect your dog. Make sure that all the right tests were done to secure your dogs health. Once that is accomplished, decide how you want to be reimbursed. If you are looking for a pup out of him then make that agreement. If not, then get the money up front but understand that you may have to rebreed if the female doesn't take. other than that, just keep running that fine specimen of a dog and have fun.

Don't worry about the rest.

Joe

Well said. X2

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:02 pm

Sharon that can work both ways maybe the next time he asks a question he won't get any answers.If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask the question.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:11 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Garrison that can work both ways maybe the next time he asks a question he won't get any answers.If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask the question.

Did this get posted in the wrong spot or am I missing something?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:15 pm

My bad Garrison should have said Sharon.Will fix it.

All those Setters look the same!!

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:19 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:My bad Garrison should have said Sharon.Will fix it.

Oh good, I thought I was drunk, I was about to go dump my beer out and quit drinking for good!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Sharon that can work both ways maybe the next time he asks a question he won't get any answers.If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask the question.

True Ted, but the answers could have been phrased differently.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:32 pm

Brad like I said I have been told I'm TOO truthful,I'm a no BS kinda guy & if you don't want to hear what I have to say don't ask.
I will refrain from giving anymore answers to anything.I think alot of people here like it better that way.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:26 am

cjhills wrote:In Ms Cages case what if the stud owner said "sorry pal my dog is good it's your bitch that has the problem I'm keeping the stud fee" would you feel that great or in the case of your dog if you said" I never said anything about pups my dog is good it has to be yours".

We had all details worked out before Howie left for AZ.. Yes, we felt it was our females fault. The male was like 9 yrs. old. Both Don and Howie know this would be a one time shot due to the males age and travel distance.

cjhills wrote:Maybe you are this wonderful fair and honest person, but this may come as a surprise to you, some aren't

IMO the vast majority of people are fair and honest.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:17 am

I have a contract as well. Probably more so for putting down in writing what you verbally agreed to. I have seen a few intereactions get pretty messy.

I don't charge until the puppies are sold. A lot of the vizsla folks I talk to are that way. I guess we're backwards.

rafael · Post by **rafael** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:24 am

That's why they have a job on TV..... judge Judy, Judge Greg Mathis, Judge Joe Brown, Judge Mabeline Ephraim, Judge Marilyn Milian, Judge Glenda Hatchett, Judge Joseph Wapner, Judge Gerald "Jerry" Sheindlin, Judge Mills Lane, Judge Ed Koch, Judge Alex Ferrer etc etc
... Because of "MISUNDERSTANDING ON BOTH SIDES" That's why you need a contract and handshake

What do you have to lose... If your a trainer, Breeder, Your "reputation" future breeding. It's a small dog world. If you take breeding seriously
write things down..

rafael · Post by **rafael** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:47 pm

The man was asking... What to look for and what not to... THAT'S ALL.... The heat must be getting to every body.. And our great President leader must be getting into your wallet... Stay Cool, Be happy, LIFE IS GOOD

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:53 am

I would have liked to have been able to comment on this much sooner, but as it were; we were out of power through Tuesday and then phone and internet were spotty, hit and miss through Thursday. Feeling for all the folks that are still without and praying for a quick restoration of service to them in this heat.

If you'll allow, perhaps I can clear up a lot of confusion and perhaps, some of the assumptions I read.
1st, Jon and I had talked in depth about this before he posted this question and it was I whom recommended that he field the question here to get a broader opinion than just my own; not necessarily to come up with a contract, but to see IF others used them and whether or not they did and regardless of feelings about such, to see how others DID address concerns, protections, understandings between Stud and B!tch owners, etc..... I can attest to having knowledge of the strong feelings on this board towards ANY and ALL contracts being highly negative and for that, I now owe Jon an apology for subjecting him to some of this.
One of the things Jon and I had talked about and I feel comfortable speaking for him about was, we were BOTH raised with and believe a hand shake and a man/woman's word was good enough and was what both of us accepted. We both also agreed that a contract was of no more value than the paper it was printed on and in some brief research, it did seem that most Stud Contracts were geared towards those whose orientation is more Conformation based, where in some cases those contracts are nothing more than a "Control". Another point of agreement was that Jon wants to insure he does this right from the start as he offers Wyatt for Stud, so would a Contract; or perhaps more appropriately named, some sort of Written Understanding(?); be appropriate/beneficial? His biggest concern and to some degree mine since I handle all of the Breeding for him, is that no one can walk away feeling sour: IF 1, 2, maybe even 3 attempts doesn't take; if it takes, but due to lack of proper maternal care, infection, Pyo, sickness, etc... the litter is lost/re-absorbed; any extenuating circumstances occur and how to handle any of those situations. There has been some good info shared here so far, so instead of making this an attack on contracts; Can we please talk about what points of concern and contention SHOULD be addressed?
To give an off the wall, hypothetical but not entirely uncommon example: How would anyone deal with a situation where, the B!tch was bred to and then developed a Pyo and was spayed to protect her life? A refund doesn't seem out of the question at all, but what if: The B!tch owner says they were set on a pup from that Stud and would prefer a pup from the next time that Stud was used, instead of a cash refund? How would you handle that? This is the kind of information Jon was/is looking for from a BROAD AUDIENCE of dedicated Breeders, Owners, Trainers and not just from mine and/or Brenda's opinions/experience; though he emphatically trust both of our input. What absolutely, positively needs to and should be addressed?

In closing and directed to Al, you know as well as I and everyone else does, that Jon made absolutely NO MENTION that his dog was better than yours or anyone else's and to ASSuME and twist/spin his words to even remotely suggest he did was COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE on your part. Maybe no big loss to you, but that completely disappointed me from a Moderator and Representative of this board.
He ultimately alluded to he had a great dog whose reputation he wants to protect, as well as his own. I believe that point is pretty clear. He only wants to make absolutely certain that he can insure he upholds a high standard and reputation of being fair, responsible, respectable and is able to demonstrate an integrity that would be hard to question. I and I think Brenda would as well, respect the fact that he doesn't just rest on our opinions and experience and instead, asked for the broader opinion. There is a very deep and experienced pool of knowledge here and to not take advantage of that broader pool IMO, would exclude a great deal of wisdom.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:32 pm

I am sorry if what I said offended you or anyone but I didn't say anything out of line when I simply said we all have a great del to lose and he didn't have more than the rest of us. I am not sure he thought he did though it did come across that way to some extent. And that is all I meant with what I posted.

Those of us that don't like written contracts think just exactly like you say both of you do. That is why we find them useless.

Ezzy

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:20 pm

I thought the OP asked a ligitamate question. I was also wondering what the breadth of experience would lend to this topic. It was nice that several folks simply offered their opinion on the subject. The money involve in today's breeding certainly would lead one to believe that their would be more "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed than in days of old. I personally fall to the handshake side of the equation but admittedly I have limited experience. For those of you who say that a handshake should suffice, I ask how many are participating in DNA profiling and health screenings for the simple fact that those exersices were also not required in yesteryear. They are becoming more and more prevelant/required to breed to some of the top animals. Please don't take that last statement as justification for arguing one way or another for stud contracts but rather as a reason I believe the OP's question is relevant.

I would also like to add that it is little dissappointing to see a personal attack from a moderator on a guy who comments on his own dog but gives the guy who called everyone a liar who disagree's him a pass. Not sure if you are aware of how an apology works but to say you are and then to follow that statement that you were not out of line completely contradicts itself. It appears that much of the animosity was created by someone besides the OP and I'm not sure the "eye for an eye" mentality solves anything. I guess I don't fully understand the logic?

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Although we don't do contracts, we OFA our brood dogs. DNA is required by FDSB for all Llewellins. We
guarantee pups against genetic health problems for 24 months.

I guess we have just been lucky. We have never had any of the problems y'all are discussing
In this thread.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:40 pm

TraditionsGSPs2010 wrote:I thought the OP asked a ligitamate question. I was also wondering what the breadth of experience would lend to this topic. It was nice that several folks simply offered their opinion on the subject. The money involve in today's breeding certainly would lead one to believe that their would be more "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed than in days of old. I personally fall to the handshake side of the equation but admittedly I have limited experience. For those of you who say that a handshake should suffice, I ask how many are participating in DNA profiling and health screenings for the simple fact that those exersices were also not required in yesteryear. They are becoming more and more prevelant/required to breed to some of the top animals. Please don't take that last statement as justification for arguing one way or another for stud contracts but rather as a reason I believe the OP's question is relevant.

I would also like to add that it is little dissappointing to see a personal attack from a moderator on a guy who comments on his own dog but gives the guy who called everyone a liar who disagree's him a pass. Not sure if you are aware of how an apology works but to say you are and then to follow that statement that you were not out of line completely contradicts the itself. It appears that much of the animosity was created by someone besides the OP and I'm not sure the "eye for an eye" mentality solves anything. I guess I don't fully understand the logic?

I did not call everybody who disagrees with me on this a liar. It is not a agree or disagree situation, I like a simple agreement if other people don't, so be it. Who cares. why anybody would feel threatened or insulted I have no idea. Incidentally if you think people were more honest back in the day you never dealt with an old time horse trader or Stud horse owner. I simply was pointing out the fact that people have misunderstandings and different expectations and if you do this long enough you will have a disagreement. I talk to many breeders and buy a lot of puppies, invariably the conversation goes to he told me he would do this and he did something else. Many of these conversations are with or about people who are on this forum. Some people need to lighten up a little and try to understand what they read. It just an opinion.
I think a agreement saves alot of these differences. It's not being crooked or dishonest it's just people forget or misunderstand or something that should have been discussed wasn't. You can't cover everything in conversation or in writing but it helps.
In the hypothetical. If the bitch owner wanted a pup From the stud I guess I would put him on the list for a puppy from the next available litter from a bitch that he agreed to. Either return his deposit or put it toward the puppy his choice. CJ

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:24 am

In all my years, I have never had a problem putting ink to paper with anyone. I have always prefaced the idea with the statement that making new friends and keeping old ones is more important then any dog...I have yet to find anyone that did not agree.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:04 pm

cjhills.."I did not call everybody that disagrees with me a liar"...But in my opinion, you did...."hasn't bred many dogs or is lying". Plus you added that somehow Independance Day "gives us the right to go on here and insult people" Well no , it does not give you the right to insult people, thats just poor taste. This isn't war or cancer we are talking about, it's a stud dog contract. A simple issue that the op can listen to the pro's and con's and make a simple decision. As I have said before. Cher said it best one time "words are like weapons they wound sometimes". These are not personal issues (well the Nutrion thread has become personal, but thats a subject for another time), they are all opinions. I have bred dogs for 40 years. Along the way bred a National Brittany All Age Champion (not to mention a few FC). Never used a contract and I'm not lying!. This board, I thought, was a forum to exchange ideas, not name calling and personal attacts. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not "thin skinned", just think we should all treat each other with a relative degree of decency. All things reach a point of "marginal utility", where it just doens't matter any more and you decide to get you information in other places. Well, it's too long, but jmo

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Interresting. This proves my point. If you all get so uptight over some perceive insult to your integrity, which may have been a bad choice of words but was meant to point out that everbody has disagreements. Just think what would happen if you had real a complaint.
Some people tend to protest too much.
From this alone the OP should realize he needs an agreement. Thanks to everybody CJ

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:51 pm

Ok so you write an agreement on a piece of paper that doesn't mean you both understand it the same.That's why you have lawyers & courts you can still be sued & a lawyer will take that piece of paper make a paper airplane out of it & throw it out the window.

Here's a little example when you enter a dog into a Field Trial it states on it that the club is not responsible for any injuries or accidents,guess what it means nothing the club still can be sued.

Bruce you say both you & Jon agreed the contract is nothing more then a piece of paper & as worthless as the paper it's written on,so what is the point?? & why was this thread even brought up.Call me stupid if you like but I don't see the point of any of it.I have been called worse then stupid so means nothing to me,I know who I am,what I am, & what I stand for & I have learned people only want to hear you say what they want you to say.People don't like hearing your honesty & what you really believe or think they want to hear BS,so I don't believe I need to reply & give any more advice on anything.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:45 pm

cjhills wrote:Interresting. This proves my point. If you all get so uptight over some perceive insult to your integrity, which may have been a bad choice of words but was meant to point out that everbody has disagreements

:roll: :roll:

In disagreements people are called liars, cheats, theives, and so on. Most disagreements are handled in a more civil fashion. IMO your naming calling proves no point.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:03 pm

Wow, I would have never thought this thread would get people's dandruff up like it has! From reading the posts, it looks like the majority will disagree with me but I personally haven't read anything that I thought was out of line. I guess a word here or there hurt some feelings but I don't believe anybody was being attacked or that any perceived insults were intentional. JMO.

Charlie

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:10 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ok so you write an agreement on a piece of paper that doesn't mean you both understand it the same.That's why you have lawyers & courts you can still be sued & a lawyer will take that piece of paper make a paper airplane out of it & throw it out the window.

Here's a little example when you enter a dog into a Field Trial it states on it that the club is not responsible for any injuries or accidents,guess what it means nothing the club still can be sued.

Bruce you say both you & Jon agreed the contract is nothing more then a piece of paper & as worthless as the paper it's written on,so what is the point?? & why was this thread even brought up.Call me stupid if you like but I don't see the point of any of it.I have been called worse then stupid so means nothing to me,I know who I am,what I am, & what I stand for & I have learned people only want to hear you say what they want you to say.People don't like hearing your honesty & what you really believe or think they want to hear BS,so I don't believe I need to reply & give any more advice on anything.

I don't believe I called you stupid Ted, nor would I. I'd like to believe that I'm above acting childish..... at least when sober anyway. Good spirits can make the best of us act foolish.... Nor do I believe Jon called you stupid, but I'll re-read just to make sure. I feel he is above that himself as well.

Just because he and I may feel/have felt that way, doesn't mean either of us are correct does it? I've had some pretty strong feelings about a lot of things in my life that you know what, later as I grew, matured and learned; I learned I was dead wrong. That was the point. To get a much broader opinion. I don't know about you, but I'm not above learning that I just might be wrong. Hopefully, we all still have room to learn and discuss. You know what else; I don't hold my breath and stomp my feet when I don't hear what I want or when others don't agree with how I feel, or what I say.
G'day

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:42 pm

Bruce what I did learn from this thread is pretty much what I stated to begin with.
That is most of the people that have been at this for awhile or my generation believe in a handshake & a mans word.I said most not all!!
The younger generation believe more in contracts & written words,& changing the way us old out of touch people have done it for yrs.Hope they get it right because we certainly have screwed up everything!!! :roll:

When my son had his children my wife & I learned we didn't even know how to raise,feed,& cloth children.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:38 am

Ted, we understand and respect your opinion.

We also have our own. It may not necessarily be worse and it may not be better - its just different. We heard what you said. Other people have valid points too and reasons for their actions. Move on. I have been burned more times than not by a handshake agreement, so I find it easier to put it down in writing, review the contract resolve any questions and sign it. Much easier that way - in my opinion.

If you would like a copy of our stud contract to work from, I would be happy to send you one. Thanks.

Justin