How Would You Have Handled This?!
How Would You Have Handled This?!
I have a 16 month old EP. He is my only dog, and is coming along great. I have never had an EP before (mostly labs), but he is average in boldness and temperament for the breed from what everyone tells me. He is kept outside in a kennel and is worked and trained regularly.
I have several young children that feed him regularly, as do I. They also play with and help me train him regularly. When I fed him tonight, I had my 2 year old daughter with me. I whoa'd him (I always do this prior to feeding him, but I don't think any of the kids do), sat the food down, waited a bit, and then released him to eat. He went to his food and began eating. My daughter went to pet him when he was eating, and he started growling with his face in the bowl. He has never done this to me. I regularly take his food away and give it back to him with no problems.
As soon as he growled tonight, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and his hips and slammed him on his side/back and held him there for a few seconds. I let him up and let him return to eating. I took his bowl from him with no problem. I then had my daughter reach near his bowl, and he growled again. I repeated the "slam" and shook him some while he was on his back. After a few seconds (he looked like his world was coming to an end) I let him up to eat. We tried the same thing (me taking his bowl away with no problem and then my daughter reaching for it). He growled for a 3rd time! I did the same thing, more aggressively, and then let him up to eat again. Again, I took his bowl away with no problems. I then let my daughter try to reach toward his bowl for the 4th time. This time he showed no reaction, other than his tail was tucked so far between his legs from being corrected that I knew he was getting some message (what that was, I don't know). We gave him a little pat and left him to eat the rest of his food.
He has never done this before, even when my other older kids feed him that I know of. What I don't know is if they have ever tried to take his food away while he was eating. I should ask them. He has never been aggressive towards anyone that I have ever seen or know of. He did growl at me one time in his crate several months ago when I tried to take a bone from him that he had been given in his crate. I scolded him then and took the bone away. I've never had a problem since, until tonight.
I would like to know if I handled the situation correctly. If not, what would you have done differently. Also, I would like to know what to do going forward to ensure this will not become a problem. I am of the belief that the dog is the low man on the totem pole at our home, and that there is no situation that is an exception to that. I would rather risk ruining a bird dog from over correction on this matter than risk getting a child (mine or anyone else's) injured.
What are your thoughts as to how this was handled and how to handle it moving forward?
I have several young children that feed him regularly, as do I. They also play with and help me train him regularly. When I fed him tonight, I had my 2 year old daughter with me. I whoa'd him (I always do this prior to feeding him, but I don't think any of the kids do), sat the food down, waited a bit, and then released him to eat. He went to his food and began eating. My daughter went to pet him when he was eating, and he started growling with his face in the bowl. He has never done this to me. I regularly take his food away and give it back to him with no problems.
As soon as he growled tonight, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and his hips and slammed him on his side/back and held him there for a few seconds. I let him up and let him return to eating. I took his bowl from him with no problem. I then had my daughter reach near his bowl, and he growled again. I repeated the "slam" and shook him some while he was on his back. After a few seconds (he looked like his world was coming to an end) I let him up to eat. We tried the same thing (me taking his bowl away with no problem and then my daughter reaching for it). He growled for a 3rd time! I did the same thing, more aggressively, and then let him up to eat again. Again, I took his bowl away with no problems. I then let my daughter try to reach toward his bowl for the 4th time. This time he showed no reaction, other than his tail was tucked so far between his legs from being corrected that I knew he was getting some message (what that was, I don't know). We gave him a little pat and left him to eat the rest of his food.
He has never done this before, even when my other older kids feed him that I know of. What I don't know is if they have ever tried to take his food away while he was eating. I should ask them. He has never been aggressive towards anyone that I have ever seen or know of. He did growl at me one time in his crate several months ago when I tried to take a bone from him that he had been given in his crate. I scolded him then and took the bone away. I've never had a problem since, until tonight.
I would like to know if I handled the situation correctly. If not, what would you have done differently. Also, I would like to know what to do going forward to ensure this will not become a problem. I am of the belief that the dog is the low man on the totem pole at our home, and that there is no situation that is an exception to that. I would rather risk ruining a bird dog from over correction on this matter than risk getting a child (mine or anyone else's) injured.
What are your thoughts as to how this was handled and how to handle it moving forward?
- dezasterous gundogs
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Dont let your kids pet him while he is eating. I dont think you will ever be able to break it
- birddog1968
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I think you handled it pretty well....
I wouldn't let the kids feed unsupervised for awhile...see if and how it resurfaces.....
pm sent.
I wouldn't let the kids feed unsupervised for awhile...see if and how it resurfaces.....
pm sent.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I sure the heck would not have used it as an opportunity to teach him that the approach of a small child means he's going to get the snot beaten out of him. Two year old children do not need to be around dogs who are eating.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I thank you for your thoughts. I asked the question about how I handled it because I am not sure that I handled it correctly. Based on your comments, you think I did not and I can appreciate that. My children approach him all the time with out him "getting the snot beat out of him". He got "the snot beat out of him" for growling at my daughter, not for her approaching him. I would think he would know the difference, hence my reaction. I recognize, however that I may be completely off base in my thinking. The question was twofold: how would you have handled it (the title of the post) and how would you handle it moving forward. I would love to hear your thoughts on those two questions so that I can learn how to better handle this type of situation if it comes up with this or another dog in the future. Thank you for your thoughts. I look forward to hearing more.Cajun Casey wrote:I sure the heck would not have used it as an opportunity to teach him that the approach of a small child means he's going to get the snot beaten out of him. Two year old children do not need to be around dogs who are eating.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
birddog1968 wrote:I think you handled it pretty well....
I wouldn't let the kids feed unsupervised for awhile...see if and how it resurfaces.....
pm sent.
Exactly. well said.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Cajun...thanks for the pm. It was very helpful. Keep them coming everyone!
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I agree with not having the young 'un be around him when he eats.
What I see from the way you handled the situation it worked exactly as it should. YOU are the one that disciplined and submitted him 3 times and in turn he did not show any outward signs of food aggression towards YOU. The issue was that he continued to show the aggression towards your little one and she had no part (nor should she have in this instance) in the discipline of the dog. There are a lot of different ways to break him of this but my preferred way would be to keep the kids away until they are old/big enough to know what to do and to be consistant about it.
What I see from the way you handled the situation it worked exactly as it should. YOU are the one that disciplined and submitted him 3 times and in turn he did not show any outward signs of food aggression towards YOU. The issue was that he continued to show the aggression towards your little one and she had no part (nor should she have in this instance) in the discipline of the dog. There are a lot of different ways to break him of this but my preferred way would be to keep the kids away until they are old/big enough to know what to do and to be consistant about it.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
But, and I did relay this to the OP, the dog got the food. I would have corrected immediately and removed the food for a while, also.Bird Dog 67 wrote:I agree with not having the young 'un be around him when he eats.
What I see from the way you handled the situation it worked exactly as it should. YOU are the one that disciplined and submitted him 3 times and in turn he did not show any outward signs of food aggression towards YOU. The issue was that he continued to show the aggression towards your little one and she had no part (nor should she have in this instance) in the discipline of the dog. There are a lot of different ways to break him of this but my preferred way would be to keep the kids away until they are old/big enough to know what to do and to be consistant about it.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I think you did rather well actually.
The dog has to learn that it is not alpha to ANY member of yiour family, no matter how young and has to learn that aggressive behavior toward ANY family member simply will not be tolerated.... A dog that cannot be trusted around children needs to have its attitude adjusted.
I would have the child give the dog its bowl of food for a while. However, before the child gives the bowl, I would take a handful from the bowl and give it to the dog. I would make sure that the dog takes the food gently or it will get corrected for that too. And then, when the dog is doing it gently, have the child take a handlful and with an open hand, feed the dog. THEN have the child put down the bowl.
RayG
The dog has to learn that it is not alpha to ANY member of yiour family, no matter how young and has to learn that aggressive behavior toward ANY family member simply will not be tolerated.... A dog that cannot be trusted around children needs to have its attitude adjusted.
I would have the child give the dog its bowl of food for a while. However, before the child gives the bowl, I would take a handful from the bowl and give it to the dog. I would make sure that the dog takes the food gently or it will get corrected for that too. And then, when the dog is doing it gently, have the child take a handlful and with an open hand, feed the dog. THEN have the child put down the bowl.
RayG
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
+1RayGubernat wrote: I would have the child give the dog its bowl of food for a while. However, before the child gives the bowl, I would take a handful from the bowl and give it to the dog. I would make sure that the dog takes the food gently or it will get corrected for that too. And then, when the dog is doing it gently, have the child take a handlful and with an open hand, feed the dog. THEN have the child put down the bowl.
RayG
Hand feeding is one thing I will do regularly with a dog overcoming any form of food aggression. This scenario that ray laid out is spot on.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Right on Ray.RayGubernat wrote:I think you did rather well actually.
The dog has to learn that it is not alpha to ANY member of yiour family, no matter how young and has to learn that aggressive behavior toward ANY family member simply will not be tolerated.... A dog that cannot be trusted around children needs to have its attitude adjusted.
I would have the child give the dog its bowl of food for a while. However, before the child gives the bowl, I would take a handful from the bowl and give it to the dog. I would make sure that the dog takes the food gently or it will get corrected for that too. And then, when the dog is doing it gently, have the child take a handlful and with an open hand, feed the dog. THEN have the child put down the bowl.
RayG
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I will start off by saying that I have never had to deal with this issue. I wonder if putting the childs hand in your hand and reaching into the bowl would effect how the dog was reacting? Maybe, he does not see the child as a superior and more as an equal. I would think that if you showed the dog that it was okay for the child to put its hand in the dish then the dog might back down. I would deffinatelly watch the dog and child interaction especially around food, and take swift action to any aggression, like you already have, or maybe more like take his food away from him.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
A two year old does not have the size or physical coordination of an older child.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
When my son was that age he used to sit on the concrete kennel floor with a feed dish between his legs and hand feed the dogs. I always watched this pretty closely but none of the dogs that I had at that time ever even acted like they were going to growl. I had a dog a few years later that did growl at my son for no reason and I ended up giving the dog to someone that did not have children and I told the guy I gave it to what happened and to never trust the dog around a child. I don't have a small child now so I don't know how my current dogs would react. Aggresion is the one thing that I have no tolerance for. If I still had a child around and if I thought there was any kind of remote chance a dog would snap at them the dog would be gone.
I do think that you handled the situation at the time the only way that you really could have.
I do think that you handled the situation at the time the only way that you really could have.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
dezasterous gundogs wrote:Dont let your kids pet him while he is eating. I dont think you will ever be able to break it
this is age of start of FOOD AGGRESSION.also he could bite someone later MAYBE. i have been going thru this for 10 years now.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Bird Dog 67 wrote:I agree with not having the young 'un be around him when he eats.
What I see from the way you handled the situation it worked exactly as it should. YOU are the one that disciplined and submitted him 3 times and in turn he did not show any outward signs of food aggression towards YOU. The issue was that he continued to show the aggression towards your little one and she had no part (nor should she have in this instance) in the discipline of the dog. There are a lot of different ways to break him of this but my preferred way would be to keep the kids away until they are old/big enough to know what to do and to be consistant about it.
that is only way i would handle it also.
it may get better but usually does not.
- prairiefirepointers
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I Concur.Cajun Casey wrote:I sure the heck would not have used it as an opportunity to teach him that the approach of a small child means he's going to get the snot beaten out of him. Two year old children do not need to be around dogs who are eating.
My daughter Haley is 2.5 years old. Loves the dogs and regularly helps feed them. She gets a charge out of dumping the folgers can of food in their bowls. However, when we feed them we shut the gate and leave them be. I can handle all of them while they eat and they could care less. I wouldn't dare put my daughter in that situation... WHY would you want to? Because you can? I don't tolerate being bothered at mealtime... Nor should my dogs. I expect alot out of my dogs, but that ain't one of em.
Theres plenty of other times for appropriate interaction. IMO
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Almost all make sense! It was a situation that needed handling quickly and I think yoy handled with a swift and sharp correction. I had a two year old crawl to my first dog 15 years ago and for the first and last time she growled at her. I flew off the couch like Hulk Hogan and clocked her like Mike Tyson. Never again with any of my 4 children did she even lift a lip at them. She would just get up and walk away very quietly. And as usual, as the kids grow, they become the dog's best friend. JMO.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I think you handled the situation correctly, given the seriousness of it. IMO, I would not take a chance in setting the dog up for a training situation with a young child. Not work the risk. JMO
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How Would You Have Handled This?!
Food aggression falls into the category of what the behaviorists call resource guarding. Its not just limited to food, and like others have already said, its not to be taken lightly.
Your reaction can solve it in some cases, but not all. Not to long ago I spent some time with an animal behaviorist that opened my eyes to behavior modification, and I learned that sometimes brute force isn't always the best way to resolve behavioral issues. If you google "canine resource guarding" you will find some useful information.
Your reaction can solve it in some cases, but not all. Not to long ago I spent some time with an animal behaviorist that opened my eyes to behavior modification, and I learned that sometimes brute force isn't always the best way to resolve behavioral issues. If you google "canine resource guarding" you will find some useful information.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I concur with Ray G, and it's nice to see other dog owners out there that also treat dogs for what they are and not like their own children.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Ithink you did well the first time. Then you set it up again and exactly what I'd think would happened, no suprise there! Right at that point someone should have beat the snot out of you. There are a lot of dogs that will do that. Thye dog is a kennel dog and there is no reason on earth why the kids should be in there while he eat's. You corrected properly and then blew it because you set the same thing up to happen again. Think about it. The second time, the one you set up, do you think you could have got your daughter out of harms way fast enough to avoid a bite if it came? Think about that!
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Lets not go overboard, this is about a little food guarding, not about a viscous blood thirsty dog.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
+1 I dont trust any dog 100%. There is always the outside chance that something could happen, they are dogs after all.DonF wrote:Ithink you did well the first time. Then you set it up again and exactly what I'd think would happened, no suprise there! Right at that point someone should have beat the snot out of you. There are a lot of dogs that will do that. Thye dog is a kennel dog and there is no reason on earth why the kids should be in there while he eat's. You corrected properly and then blew it because you set the same thing up to happen again. Think about it. The second time, the one you set up, do you think you could have got your daughter out of harms way fast enough to avoid a bite if it came? Think about that!
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Dogs are genetically pre-programmed. This one is possesive and insecure. He will revert to his default mode given the right circumstance. He is a potential liability....for your family and others. You have two choices. Place this dog where he has no chance of conforntation (telling the new owner about the issue) and get yourself a dog with better temperament. Or....make sure you always take steps to avoid a possible issue with the dog. You can never trust this dog....accept that now. This temperament fla will crop up in other situations...count on it.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I think one can just about throw out the last few posts IMO. Don, since you take three flops and a good shake as him beating the snot out of a dog, I'm going to take your reaction as coming from a guy that snuggles yours in bed, gives kisses, buys ice cream, etc. But to each his own I suppose.DonF wrote:Ithink you did well the first time. Then you set it up again and exactly what I'd think would happened, no suprise there! Right at that point someone should have beat the snot out of you. There are a lot of dogs that will do that. Thye dog is a kennel dog and there is no reason on earth why the kids should be in there while he eat's. You corrected properly and then blew it because you set the same thing up to happen again. Think about it. The second time, the one you set up, do you think you could have got your daughter out of harms way fast enough to avoid a bite if it came? Think about that!
More likely than not, this is a dog that had another thing to learn regarding his position in his pack, not that he's new but the baby at that age is just learning to get around good when the dog likely didn't get much interaction with her as an infant and he thinks she's new. Dogs learn by repetition and association and since the dog isn't getting planted everytime a youngster is around, he won't directly associate the two.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Actually, in this case, the dog was punished for issuing a warning. Maybe next time he will forego the warning and bite.Lyco Setter wrote:I think one can just about throw out the last few posts IMO. Don, since you take three flops and a good shake as him beating the snot out of a dog, I'm going to take your reaction as coming from a guy that snuggles yours in bed, gives kisses, buys ice cream, etc. But to each his own I suppose.DonF wrote:Ithink you did well the first time. Then you set it up again and exactly what I'd think would happened, no suprise there! Right at that point someone should have beat the snot out of you. There are a lot of dogs that will do that. Thye dog is a kennel dog and there is no reason on earth why the kids should be in there while he eat's. You corrected properly and then blew it because you set the same thing up to happen again. Think about it. The second time, the one you set up, do you think you could have got your daughter out of harms way fast enough to avoid a bite if it came? Think about that!
More likely than not, this is a dog that had another thing to learn regarding his position in his pack, not that he's new but the baby at that age is just learning to get around good when the dog likely didn't get much interaction with her as an infant and he thinks she's new. Dogs learn by repetition and association and since the dog isn't getting planted everytime a youngster is around, he won't directly associate the two.
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- prairiefirepointers
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I'm not here to beat up on the OP. The point of this thread is to get sound advice and digress whether or not things could have been done differently or not. With that being said, and also being the parent of a 2 year old daughter who loves to feed the dogs, I have 2 things I can't help but bring up.
1) Despite which camp you're in on whether or not he handled the dog the right way, NOWHERE was it mentioned that after "Squaring the dog away" did he then explain to the child its not a good idea to bother dogs while they're eating. Seems to me that the OP solidified the idea that its an okay practice. I don't know about anyone else's 2 year old, but mine keeps me running alot! - You're not always going to be there to thwart whatever misdoings they get into. If you're okay with the possibility of her carrying around a dogbite to the face scar for the rest of her life, then by all means.... proceed.
2) Whether warranted or not on the dogs part, I'd consider myself lucky that the dog only growled and didn't snap at her. I'd have quit while I was ahead and not used my child as a "training dummy" for a few more scenarios. The dog is bigger, faster & stronger. Thats not a good situation to set up IMO.
1) Despite which camp you're in on whether or not he handled the dog the right way, NOWHERE was it mentioned that after "Squaring the dog away" did he then explain to the child its not a good idea to bother dogs while they're eating. Seems to me that the OP solidified the idea that its an okay practice. I don't know about anyone else's 2 year old, but mine keeps me running alot! - You're not always going to be there to thwart whatever misdoings they get into. If you're okay with the possibility of her carrying around a dogbite to the face scar for the rest of her life, then by all means.... proceed.
2) Whether warranted or not on the dogs part, I'd consider myself lucky that the dog only growled and didn't snap at her. I'd have quit while I was ahead and not used my child as a "training dummy" for a few more scenarios. The dog is bigger, faster & stronger. Thats not a good situation to set up IMO.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
In my opinion i think u did great. i know im new on here but not new to dogs at all. before i got my lab we had a wolf hybrid that i made sure my kids could take his food or anything else away from him at any time. and for the record it dont sound like you beat the snot out if him. just sounds like you corrected him the way an alpha male in the pack would.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Guys-
Here is the deal with me. I can give any one of my dogs a big juicy, meaty bone and while they are gnawing on it, I can reach in, put my hand on it and take it away without a struggle. If I cannot, the dog and I have a come to Jesus meeting...right then...right there. If the dog snaps at me and bites at me... it might just get all its teeth pulled out or a bullet in the head. End of story.
I don't care what the dogs do with each other and how they sort out their pack order, but when I amd there...I am in charge.
That goes for any member of my family, or, by extension, anyone I say it goes for. If I go in and take a dog's food away in the middle of its meal, the dog has to accept that. If my two year old grandson does the same thing... the dog has to know they have to accept that as well. They don't have to like it, but they have to accept it.
I think the OP did just fine. He nipped a potentially dangerous situation in the bud. Now all he has to do is reinforce that ANY member of his family has the same pack standing as the master does and is deserving of the same level of deference...or the master will step in...again.
Of course he has to educate his family about deliberately annoying a dog and how that is not a kind thing to do, but the dog, simply put, has to tolerate unintended annoyance and unwanted attention without aggression. No more, but certainly no less.
We are talking bird dogs here, not companion dogs and certainly not guard dogs.
RayG
Here is the deal with me. I can give any one of my dogs a big juicy, meaty bone and while they are gnawing on it, I can reach in, put my hand on it and take it away without a struggle. If I cannot, the dog and I have a come to Jesus meeting...right then...right there. If the dog snaps at me and bites at me... it might just get all its teeth pulled out or a bullet in the head. End of story.
I don't care what the dogs do with each other and how they sort out their pack order, but when I amd there...I am in charge.
That goes for any member of my family, or, by extension, anyone I say it goes for. If I go in and take a dog's food away in the middle of its meal, the dog has to accept that. If my two year old grandson does the same thing... the dog has to know they have to accept that as well. They don't have to like it, but they have to accept it.
I think the OP did just fine. He nipped a potentially dangerous situation in the bud. Now all he has to do is reinforce that ANY member of his family has the same pack standing as the master does and is deserving of the same level of deference...or the master will step in...again.
Of course he has to educate his family about deliberately annoying a dog and how that is not a kind thing to do, but the dog, simply put, has to tolerate unintended annoyance and unwanted attention without aggression. No more, but certainly no less.
We are talking bird dogs here, not companion dogs and certainly not guard dogs.
RayG
- Cajun Casey
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
We're talking a two year old here, not a child that can think and react.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Cajun Casey wrote:We're talking a two year old here, not a child that can think and react.
No we are not. We are talking about an eighteen month old dog that needs to know exactly what and where their place in this world is.
I do not care if it is a six month old baby that is crawling on the dog and sticking its fingers in the dog's eyes, ears and nose. They need to lay there and take it or to get up and move away. Aggressiveness in a dog is not acceptable when there are little ones around. They need to know that they are NOT alpha to even the smallest member of the family, in ANY circumstance.
That is my opinion on the subject. Others may disagree.
It might be worth noting that I put down a dog about a year ago because I could not trust it around my grandson. That dog put down a winning performance at a National Am. Walking Shooting dog championship stake a few years back and only lost because I screwed up with about five minutes to go. He was still an awesome bird dog...but he was untrustworthy around strangers. I gave him lots of chaces to modify his behavior and he did not. He had to go, much as it pained me...he had to go.
RayG
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Thanks for all the replies and thoughts. Just to clarify a couple of things that seem to have gotten out of hand.
First, I did not use my daughter as a "training dummy". She went with me to feed the dog (very common at our home). She started to pet the dog when he started eating of her own accord. I was standing right next to her petting him as well. He was fine with that. He always has been with all members of my family, including her. I had no reason to think that it was an issue because it never has been before. She then went to pet him on his head (nearer to the bowl) and that is when he growled. He's never done that before and it surprised me. As soon as he growled, I quickly moved my daughter, who was right next to me, away from the dog and corrected him as stated.
Secondly, I did not just send her back in for a test run to see if he was cured. This may have been where the "training dummy" comments have come up. I did, right or wrong, make the decision to see how he would react to the same situation after the first growl and correction. I was between her and the dog, had ahold of his collar as he was eating, and held her arm and started to move it toward the bowl. As her hand got close to the bowl, he growled again with the same correction from me. I repeated this with my daughter with the same response from him and then me. I repeated it again, and this time he did nothing but ate his food with no growl. We left it at that for that particular evening.
I appreciate all of the comments and opinions. I asked for them and I got them. I have thought much about the situation. I can appreciate everyone's point of view, and I have my own as well. Was I in the right or wrong in this situation? That can be debated forever. A situation occurred and I did what I thought was best in the moment it occurred. Will I be more cautious with this particular dog in feeding situations...absolutely! Will the dog ever get away with aggression in any form to anyone...absolutely not!
Lastly, to make the assumption that I do/did not educate my children about animals and this dog in particular is extremely presumptuous. I have used some of the advice on this thread and in some pm's at feeding time to do all we can to avoid anything like this occurring again. It is going great, no one is in harms way in the process, and the dog and kids are learning...as am I.
Would I do things differently in hindsight...of course I would. There are many things in life that I would do differently in hindsight. Once again, great thoughts and opinions. Some have been extremely helpful and I am especially grateful for those (even some that seemed a little harsh in tone). I realize that I made some mistakes and it is good to have them pointed out. Again, thanks for the replies. More comments and thoughts are still appreciated.
First, I did not use my daughter as a "training dummy". She went with me to feed the dog (very common at our home). She started to pet the dog when he started eating of her own accord. I was standing right next to her petting him as well. He was fine with that. He always has been with all members of my family, including her. I had no reason to think that it was an issue because it never has been before. She then went to pet him on his head (nearer to the bowl) and that is when he growled. He's never done that before and it surprised me. As soon as he growled, I quickly moved my daughter, who was right next to me, away from the dog and corrected him as stated.
Secondly, I did not just send her back in for a test run to see if he was cured. This may have been where the "training dummy" comments have come up. I did, right or wrong, make the decision to see how he would react to the same situation after the first growl and correction. I was between her and the dog, had ahold of his collar as he was eating, and held her arm and started to move it toward the bowl. As her hand got close to the bowl, he growled again with the same correction from me. I repeated this with my daughter with the same response from him and then me. I repeated it again, and this time he did nothing but ate his food with no growl. We left it at that for that particular evening.
I appreciate all of the comments and opinions. I asked for them and I got them. I have thought much about the situation. I can appreciate everyone's point of view, and I have my own as well. Was I in the right or wrong in this situation? That can be debated forever. A situation occurred and I did what I thought was best in the moment it occurred. Will I be more cautious with this particular dog in feeding situations...absolutely! Will the dog ever get away with aggression in any form to anyone...absolutely not!
Lastly, to make the assumption that I do/did not educate my children about animals and this dog in particular is extremely presumptuous. I have used some of the advice on this thread and in some pm's at feeding time to do all we can to avoid anything like this occurring again. It is going great, no one is in harms way in the process, and the dog and kids are learning...as am I.
Would I do things differently in hindsight...of course I would. There are many things in life that I would do differently in hindsight. Once again, great thoughts and opinions. Some have been extremely helpful and I am especially grateful for those (even some that seemed a little harsh in tone). I realize that I made some mistakes and it is good to have them pointed out. Again, thanks for the replies. More comments and thoughts are still appreciated.
- Cajun Casey
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
No, we are talking about putting a child at risk to teach a dog a lesson. You can kill all the dogs you want for whatever reason, but the fact is, if your kid or grandkid is used to your dogs and expects mine to behave the same, there will be a tragedy. My dogs are never out of my physical control around other people, but I do not muzzle them and they are not used to children, they are protective of me and they might not react well to being crowded.RayGubernat wrote:Cajun Casey wrote:We're talking a two year old here, not a child that can think and react.
No we are not. We are talking about an eighteen month old dog that needs to know exactly what and where their place in this world is.
I do not care if it is a six month old baby that is crawling on the dog and sticking its fingers in the dog's eyes, ears and nose. They need to lay there and take it or to get up and move away. Aggressiveness in a dog is not acceptable when there are little ones around. They need to know that they are NOT alpha to even the smallest member of the family, in ANY circumstance.
That is my opinion on the subject. Others may disagree.
It might be worth noting that I put down a dog about a year ago because I could not trust it around my grandson. That dog put down a winning performance at a National Am. Walking Shooting dog championship stake a few years back and only lost because I screwed up with about five minutes to go. He was still an awesome bird dog...but he was untrustworthy around strangers. I gave him lots of chaces to modify his behavior and he did not. He had to go, much as it pained me...he had to go.
RayG
I agree that the dog needs some behavioral work, just not with a toddler around.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
bigbob,
In my opinion you created the problem inadvertenly. The reason your dog growled at your child and not you is because he respects your dominance which you asserted and established mostlikely with the bone in the crate incident you described in your post. However, he considers your children, especially your little girl as subordinate to him. It is not a sign of impending aggression just natural instinct. Perhaps the only thing you did was confuse him with the discipline you applied at the time. It is best to keep small children away from any dog while eating. A dog has been " programmed " from the beginning to bolt its food and fight to defend it. He was only reacting to what he considered an impending threat from your daughter. I dont think you have any thing to worry about beyond meal time. Just be sure he is left alone during meal time as you no doubt prefer to be as we all do. I have " fooled " with bird dogs since the 1980's and I have only seen one true aggressive dog and that was a Brittany believe it or not. I returned him to the man I got from within hours. Enjoy your dog and the great hunts you will share with him in the future.
In my opinion you created the problem inadvertenly. The reason your dog growled at your child and not you is because he respects your dominance which you asserted and established mostlikely with the bone in the crate incident you described in your post. However, he considers your children, especially your little girl as subordinate to him. It is not a sign of impending aggression just natural instinct. Perhaps the only thing you did was confuse him with the discipline you applied at the time. It is best to keep small children away from any dog while eating. A dog has been " programmed " from the beginning to bolt its food and fight to defend it. He was only reacting to what he considered an impending threat from your daughter. I dont think you have any thing to worry about beyond meal time. Just be sure he is left alone during meal time as you no doubt prefer to be as we all do. I have " fooled " with bird dogs since the 1980's and I have only seen one true aggressive dog and that was a Brittany believe it or not. I returned him to the man I got from within hours. Enjoy your dog and the great hunts you will share with him in the future.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Cajun Casey wrote:No, we are talking about putting a child at risk to teach a dog a lesson. You can kill all the dogs you want for whatever reason, but the fact is, if your kid or grandkid is used to your dogs and expects mine to behave the same, there will be a tragedy. My dogs are never out of my physical control around other people, but I do not muzzle them and they are not used to children, they are protective of me and they might not react well to being crowded.RayGubernat wrote:Cajun Casey wrote:We're talking a two year old here, not a child that can think and react.
No we are not. We are talking about an eighteen month old dog that needs to know exactly what and where their place in this world is.
I do not care if it is a six month old baby that is crawling on the dog and sticking its fingers in the dog's eyes, ears and nose. They need to lay there and take it or to get up and move away. Aggressiveness in a dog is not acceptable when there are little ones around. They need to know that they are NOT alpha to even the smallest member of the family, in ANY circumstance.
That is my opinion on the subject. Others may disagree.
It might be worth noting that I put down a dog about a year ago because I could not trust it around my grandson. That dog put down a winning performance at a National Am. Walking Shooting dog championship stake a few years back and only lost because I screwed up with about five minutes to go. He was still an awesome bird dog...but he was untrustworthy around strangers. I gave him lots of chaces to modify his behavior and he did not. He had to go, much as it pained me...he had to go.
RayG
I agree that the dog needs some behavioral work, just not with a toddler around.
Cajun -
You are off the wall on this one. You need to get a grip there dude. I am suggesting that the dog learn that the smallest child in the family is alpha to them and that the dog understand that the master is fully behind that . I am suggesting that the dog understand that it must not be aggressive to a family human at any time under any circumstance. My dogs are kennel dogs and they learn that. How much more important is it for a dog that is in the house or yard with a toddler?
You are free raise and train your dogs any way you like. If they bite someone, even a trespassing stranger, when they are crowed, I hope you have good insurance.
Oh and I truly appreciate your deep and abiding sensitivity to one of the most difficult decisions a pet owner can face... which is when and under what circumstances to euthanize their pet. Thanks.
RayG
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Ray, it sounds like you're one of those folks who thinks people who are minding their own business owe you something when you hurt yourself on their property. Probably be calling your attorney from the ambulance if you shot yourself in the foot with a borrowed gun. I just hope you never put a little kid up to proving your point. Peace, out, dude.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
The sky has offically fallen
This isn't an aggressive dog from the description. Its a dog that just needs to learn its place. I've seen this happen before and its
a no brainer to make clear to the dog. I recently sold a dog to a family, within days of them taking it home it was growling at the
guys wife and kids. When asked for the full story/scenario, the guy had (the first day) started allowing the dog in the bed with him.
The dog was easily straightened out by kenneling (no bed) and the wife and kids feeding the dog.....problem solved ! Dog has been
a happy member of the family for years now and they wouldn't be without her.
Was this a dog that needed put down or kenneled forever and watched like a hawk....??? Nope, Just took some thoughtful conditioning.
From the OP's original post this is a very similar situation.
A truly aggressive dog is another story......
This isn't an aggressive dog from the description. Its a dog that just needs to learn its place. I've seen this happen before and its
a no brainer to make clear to the dog. I recently sold a dog to a family, within days of them taking it home it was growling at the
guys wife and kids. When asked for the full story/scenario, the guy had (the first day) started allowing the dog in the bed with him.
The dog was easily straightened out by kenneling (no bed) and the wife and kids feeding the dog.....problem solved ! Dog has been
a happy member of the family for years now and they wouldn't be without her.
Was this a dog that needed put down or kenneled forever and watched like a hawk....??? Nope, Just took some thoughtful conditioning.
From the OP's original post this is a very similar situation.
A truly aggressive dog is another story......
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Well said. exactly
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I agree with Ray G 100% on this. When you encounter a situation like this the correct response is not to avoid it but to correct it right there and then. The OP handled this very well IMO. The dog has to know he is at the bottom. He is still a young dog and needs to know what is acceptable and what isn't.
I understand when some of you say the 2 yr old shouldn't be in that situation but she was and the OP did the right thing.
I understand when some of you say the 2 yr old shouldn't be in that situation but she was and the OP did the right thing.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I think the OP did what I would have done. As far as a child not being around the dog while it is eating, what happens when the dog decides to be possessive of a ball, or some other toy, and the child pets the dog . The dog needs to learn his place or it could get worse.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
And that right there is the problem. You set your infant daughter up three more times to test the dog, that is absolutely stupid, stupid, stupid. I am 100% with Cajun on this! Forget all this "I gotta be alpha" stuff. What he and I are both talking about is repetedly setting the daughter up again so that he could disapline the dog!! Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!!!bigbob wrote: As soon as he growled tonight, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and his hips and slammed him on his side/back and held him there for a few seconds. I let him up and let him return to eating. I took his bowl from him with no problem. I then had my daughter reach near his bowl, and he growled again. I repeated the "slam" and shook him some while he was on his back. After a few seconds (he looked like his world was coming to an end) I let him up to eat. We tried the same thing (me taking his bowl away with no problem and then my daughter reaching for it). He growled for a 3rd time! I did the same thing, more aggressively, and then let him up to eat again. Again, I took his bowl away with no problems. I then let my daughter try to reach toward his bowl for the 4th time.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Just to play devils advocate here, if not this way, how should the OP go about addressing and correcting this issue?DonF wrote:And that right there is the problem. You set your infant daughter up three more times to test the dog, that is absolutely stupid, stupid, stupid. I am 100% with Cajun on this! Forget all this "I gotta be alpha" stuff. What he and I are both talking about is repetedly setting the daughter up again so that he could disapline the dog!! Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!!!bigbob wrote: As soon as he growled tonight, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and his hips and slammed him on his side/back and held him there for a few seconds. I let him up and let him return to eating. I took his bowl from him with no problem. I then had my daughter reach near his bowl, and he growled again. I repeated the "slam" and shook him some while he was on his back. After a few seconds (he looked like his world was coming to an end) I let him up to eat. We tried the same thing (me taking his bowl away with no problem and then my daughter reaching for it). He growled for a 3rd time! I did the same thing, more aggressively, and then let him up to eat again. Again, I took his bowl away with no problems. I then let my daughter try to reach toward his bowl for the 4th time.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
So would you rather just let it happen some times when you aren't there to control the situation? Seems it was the best waY TO DO IT AND THE PROOF IS IT WORKED.DonF wrote:And that right there is the problem. You set your infant daughter up three more times to test the dog, that is absolutely stupid, stupid, stupid. I am 100% with Cajun on this! Forget all this "I gotta be alpha" stuff. What he and I are both talking about is repetedly setting the daughter up again so that he could disapline the dog!! Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!!!bigbob wrote: As soon as he growled tonight, I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and his hips and slammed him on his side/back and held him there for a few seconds. I let him up and let him return to eating. I took his bowl from him with no problem. I then had my daughter reach near his bowl, and he growled again. I repeated the "slam" and shook him some while he was on his back. After a few seconds (he looked like his world was coming to an end) I let him up to eat. We tried the same thing (me taking his bowl away with no problem and then my daughter reaching for it). He growled for a 3rd time! I did the same thing, more aggressively, and then let him up to eat again. Again, I took his bowl away with no problems. I then let my daughter try to reach toward his bowl for the 4th time.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Cajun -Cajun Casey wrote:Ray, it sounds like you're one of those folks who thinks people who are minding their own business owe you something when you hurt yourself on their property. Probably be calling your attorney from the ambulance if you shot yourself in the foot with a borrowed gun. I just hope you never put a little kid up to proving your point. Peace, out, dude.
Not really. Minding my own business is actually something I do reasonably well. However, if one of your dogs bit me or one of mine without what I consider to be sufficient provocation, the very last thing you would need to worry about is an attorney.
You cannot be on top of your dogs 100% of the time. They have to be reliable and safe even when you are not around. They are dogs and therefore can never be 100% reliable. But you have to do the best you can.
RayG
- birddogger
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
Exactly right!birddog1968 wrote:The sky has offically fallen
This isn't an aggressive dog from the description. Its a dog that just needs to learn its place. I've seen this happen before and its
a no brainer to make clear to the dog. I recently sold a dog to a family, within days of them taking it home it was growling at the
guys wife and kids. When asked for the full story/scenario, the guy had (the first day) started allowing the dog in the bed with him.
The dog was easily straightened out by kenneling (no bed) and the wife and kids feeding the dog.....problem solved ! Dog has been
a happy member of the family for years now and they wouldn't be without her.
Was this a dog that needed put down or kenneled forever and watched like a hawk....??? Nope, Just took some thoughtful conditioning.
From the OP's original post this is a very similar situation.
A truly aggressive dog is another story......
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way
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Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
:roll: :roll: :roll:RayGubernat wrote:Cajun -Cajun Casey wrote:Ray, it sounds like you're one of those folks who thinks people who are minding their own business owe you something when you hurt yourself on their property. Probably be calling your attorney from the ambulance if you shot yourself in the foot with a borrowed gun. I just hope you never put a little kid up to proving your point. Peace, out, dude.
Not really. Minding my own business is actually something I do reasonably well. However, if one of your dogs bit me or one of mine without what I consider to be sufficient provocation, the very last thing you would need to worry about is an attorney.
You cannot be on top of your dogs 100% of the time. They have to be reliable and safe even when you are not around. They are dogs and therefore can never be 100% reliable. But you have to do the best you can.
RayG
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: How Would You Have Handled This?!
I learned that lesson the hard way Ray.
I had a great GSP. Wouldn't growl or bite anyone I thought.
One day a boy was visiting, ( jumping on the couch), the dog and i were sitting on the couch . The dog pivoted and grabbed the kid by the head - no teeth marks, but frightrnrf him terribly.
I couldn't believe it..
Took the dog to the vet to see if a health problem had caused this unexpected behaviour. Turned out he had gone blind - only tunnel vision no peripheral vision.
You never know.
I had a great GSP. Wouldn't growl or bite anyone I thought.
One day a boy was visiting, ( jumping on the couch), the dog and i were sitting on the couch . The dog pivoted and grabbed the kid by the head - no teeth marks, but frightrnrf him terribly.
I couldn't believe it..
Took the dog to the vet to see if a health problem had caused this unexpected behaviour. Turned out he had gone blind - only tunnel vision no peripheral vision.
You never know.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett