Teaching the command Whoa

[algotube]

Hello everyone my very first post so please be gentle with me.

After a year of doing research I finally went out and got myself a Brittany female bird dog. I will be using her mostly for pheasants, I was going to let her get trained by a professional but I thought I would do it myself and really bond with my dog Sami. Hands down the best decisions I ever made I enjoy working with her and have fallen totally in love with this bread. Sami, is 7 months and I am at the point in my training in teaching her "WHOA" ...here are the steps that I have taken but I am at point in my training that I am stumped and need some good old sold advice from you experts .

Before I start Sami has been introduced to birds and gunfire ---- no problem at all in this area------actually excellent.

I started Sami standing on a barrel as soon as I got her. Started very slowly put her on the barrel and stroked her and made her feel relaxed 5min, 10min,15min...now she is at the point were she stands nice and tall and does not move. About three weeks ago same thing put her on the barrel and slowly started to introduce the word Whoa over and over again.

After this in the back yard I used a check-cord and put the snap to her collar and tide the check-cord on her belly making a suitcase handle. I walked her slowly calling her name and commanded the word Whoa and pulled softly to create some pressure with a quick release on her behind. I did this drill 100 times so she could get use to it........I also tapped her on the head and commanded the word GO to release her. This worked liked a charm no problem.

I than moved to a flat board....walked her as soon as she was on the board I commanded Whoa created some pressure with a quick release tapped her on the head to release her.....once again I did this 100 times so she would get it.........once again no problem

I than followed up again walking her to the board commanded Whoa this time I walked in front of her as she stayed on the board.....walked and kicked through a dummy as she stayed put tapped her on the head to release her no problems

Next step is to use the e-collar, put the e-collar on her behind walk her command the Whoa command give her a tickle with the e-collar, release her by tapping her on the head.

I bought the e-collar about 2 months ago every time we go out in the field or on my 4wheeler I let her wear it so she could get use to it. I am using low stimulation about 1 and half.

Before all this I introduced her to the e-collar on the Kennel command that worked great.

Ok so here is the problem while using the e-collar at first it was working great than I would walk her command the word Whoa, give her a tickle with the e-collar and she would stop but when I tap her on the head she would not go she would not move at all.

I have to actually pull her to get her walking again….she just stands there and does not want to move……. AT ALL

So what in the world did I do wrong here? Why is she all of the sudden stopping and not willing to move?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for making this so long but I am confused

[DogNewbie]

Sounds like she may not understand the release command or thinks the whoa command overrides the release. I would try giving her an incentive to move. Why move from this spot if there is a chance I'll get nicked. Safer just to stay. Does she like to fetch bumpers? I would try something like whoaing her, tossing a bumper and then try releasing her. I would push her forward if I had to. If a bumper doesn't work, I'm sure a pigeon would.

[Sharon]

Sounds like you did it right to me.

She's just thinking about it.
is the collar on the right level for her? You don't want her not moving because she thinks she'll make a mistake and get a correction.

[Kmack]

Sounds like time to move her out of the yard and to the birdfield where she should be more motivated to release and look for birds?
What you have described sounds to me like a dog that fully understands whoa and is ready for the pressure of more distractions and learning what whoa is really for... Flushed birds, Backing another dog and steady to or through the flush and shot.

Just take it easy and don't try to progress too fast, it sounds like you doing fine...

[rinker]

I would try two things. The first thing that I would try is to tap her on the head and then walk off and leave her maybe even hop on your four wheeler and drive off. When she sees you one hundred yards away and leaving rapidly, I think she will come on. If this doesn't work, I would tap her on the head and walk a away and give a little jerk on the check cord as I was leaving. I actually think that this should be a pretty easy one to fix.

[birddogger]

Not too bad of a problem to have, if you have to have one. Did you transition to the e-collar properly...using the tickle in conjunction with the CC before getting to the point of doing away with the CC? Also, it sounds as though you are tickling her with the collar, even though she knows and is responding to the command. Once she knew the command and had been transitioned properly to the collar, the collar is used only as a reinforcement if she disobeys or moves before released. Just one more thing, I don't think you want to keep an e-collar on her flank for the rest of her life. It is time to get that thing off her waist and transition to the neck, where it will be used in the field during her career.

P.S. As was mentioned in a similar thread, using the nick or continuous mode on the collar will make a difference.

Good luck,
Charlie

[DonF]

You are doing great! I have an idea you don't really need the e-collar. As well as she is doing, why did you bring it in? Does she not move if you don't nic her? Or is it only after you nic her? What reaction do you get from her on a nic? Should be barely noticeable that you nic'd her.

[algotube]

Wow some great stuff here thank you so much for your replies.

DogNewbie, I like your idea of introducing a reward either a bumper or something else she loves this old rubber chicken will see how it works.

Sharon, thanks I researched this thing inside and out I see that she looks around at the level 1........so that's what I have been using

Kmarch, yes I have about 8 more pigeons I will be taking her out this weekend and working with her on the fly away drill.......I will take it slow and put some pressure on her slowly and see how she responds

Rinker, good ideas that what I have been doing so far tap her on the head walk infront and give her a little pull............ but it's like she is saying screw that I know whats coming so I am not moving..... :roll: but as I said she was doing fine before the e-collar

Birddogger, I was reading that you could start with continues tickle, say the CC and when she stops tickle off......... I did not like this approach so as stated I walked her said the CC and than a small tickle............but you are right I mean she knows the command but I just wanted to make sure that when I say Whoa in the field that she would know that it means STOP AND DON'T MOVE UNTIL RELEASED ........... no I won't keep the e-collar there forever I think she has the idea.....

DonF, thanks this is the first time around and I am not sure of alot of things but I am trying. I brought the e-collar in to in-force and instill that when the command Whoa is given to not move..... it's only after I nic her that she does not move so yes it's got definitively something to do with the nic .........I thought that the e-collar was apart of the process but I see what your trying to say.......if it's working without it why bring it in.............

Thanks again everyone great, great stuff...........

[4dabirds]

Fight ,flight fakery freeze are strategies that dogs employ to avoid stimulation, your dog is obviously employing the freeze strategy, "if i do not move I can not be stimulated" In the beginning of training the e-collar you will stimulate command. This teaches the dog to respond to the command to shut off the collar once the dog has learned the command and the collar has been overlaid you will command stimulate. If the dog understands the command and responds with excellence the stimulation is not necessary. It is only being used as a deterrent, this is avoidance training. The dog avoids the correction by responding positively to the command. At some point you may have stimulated at the wrong point or just a little harder then necessary. The dog is responding well to the command and is avoiding the stimulation by standing still this is what you want. I would release the dog and if the dog will not move just gently pull the dog off whoa and avoid using the collar only commanding whoa when you are sure the dog will respond positively. The dog will learn to realize what is expected and that the correction is not coming. i think it would be a big mistake to add anything to the drill, if the dog is not grasping what is expected adding another facet will confuse the dog more. Since dogs are place oriented You will have to generalize the dog to different environments on this command , expecting the dog to get what is expected in the field when the dog has not been fully conditioned in yard training is premature. At this point you are teaching the dog what you expect and just allowing the dog to work it out in the yard first will pay dividends later on. It sounds to me as though this dog is a little on the soft side and will probably respond well in training with very little stimulation, just a lot of repetition. It sounds like you are doing very well up until now good luck.

[Francois P vd Walt]

I would like to agree you have done so well, get her out on birds now EASY on the coller, she did well without it.

She needs to have fun and enjoy this be carefull in over training reading how fast she learned be VERY carefull around birds with e coller.

Keep up the good work remember it is about fun you also have to give her time to work things out, dogs will react to the handler if the y know the commands and you are in charge alfa/pack leader. This will happen without a e coller a good thing to have if you need if, chasing deer etc.

[Meller]

Be carefull how you say ( WHOA and Go ) they sound a lot a like, right after stimulation!
I would try with just the "Tap" on the head for realease.

[birddogger]

Be carefull how you say ( WHOA and Go ) they sound a lot a like, right after stimulation!
I would try with just the "Tap" on the head for realease.

Good point. I use a tap and "alright" for the release.

Charlie

[4dabirds]

I agree as well, the word no as a release may be the only issue here. I use ok for a release but the dogs name is better my next one will be trained to release on his name ,it has less of a chance for mishaps. i once said to my friend that my dog looks ok as he was on point, and he released. Gotta keep my mouth shut!

[algotube]

Thank you all for the great information very much appreciated