Aggression

BirdDogJoe · Post by **BirdDogJoe** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:23 am

Hey all,

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:38 am

Are these dogs or bitches that he is going after?

Why don't you feeding them all in crates? That would alleviate that problem.

BirdDogJoe · Post by **BirdDogJoe** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:42 am

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:52 am

He isn't fighting, he is attacking and his intent is not to sort out status or resources, it is to kill. Since he has attacked females, particularly a puppy, I don't think you can reliably elimnate the behavior. I have dogs that like to posture, bully and spar, but they can be stopped easily and they tend to have one sparring partner and get along normally 99% of the time, including eating together. Don't ever trust him.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:14 am

If he was doing better after being to the trainer I think it was the food. Feed him separate from the other dogs. And like what was said above do not trust him.

Good luck.

Mike50 · Post by **Mike50** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:14 am

Be careful with the E collar. I've read they can perceive the ecollar nick as a attack by the other dog and send them into a rage that only has one outcome.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:18 am

My first recommendation is to not keep him. If you do keep him, have his canine teeth pulled. The vast majority of damage done by a dog bite is done by the canine teeth.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:25 am

Never run that dog in a trial again....nobody showing up for a weekend of enjoyment deserves to have that happen to their dog.....

I didn't see it mentioned above so I thought i'd add that.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:28 am

Cajun Casey wrote:He isn't fighting, he is attacking and his intent is not to sort out status or resources, it is to kill. Since he has attacked females, particularly a puppy, I don't think you can reliably elimnate the behavior. I have dogs that like to posture, bully and spar, but they can be stopped easily and they tend to have one sparring partner and get along normally 99% of the time, including eating together. Don't ever trust him.

+ one.
get rid of him before someone get hurt and you get a law suit.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:50 am

Man that's tough. I have a male shorthair that doesn't like any other males, period. But he loves all puppies and would just lay down and take a whipping from any female out there. If the trainer isnt able to help your dog, you may have hit a dead end. As mentioned above, I wouldn't take him to another trial. I think the NSTRA rule is if he gets in one more fight he's banned? Good luck.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:16 am

These are harsh words, but that dog needs to be put down.

marysburg · Post by **marysburg** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:30 am

An adult dog attacking a pup and wounding it is not normal. If the dog was trying to set boundaries for the pup, it would have only needed a little noise and maybe a body check. The older dog is a legal liability to you now, and he poses a real threat to dogs at trials, training grounds and in your neighbourhood; to say nothing of the threat to those at home. I'm not sure what stellar qualities he might possess which would make you keep him, but either way, your decision will be filled with anguish. Best of luck to you, and let us know how it works out.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:59 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:These are harsh words, but that dog needs to be put down.

This can't be said enough, put the dog down. it's only a matter of time before it attacks a human, maybe your wife. I had a client's friend bring a Britt in just like that. Everything went fine till it decided it didn't want to do something. Then it turned on me. I called the client and told him what happened and to come get his dog. His friend, older client got word and asked me to keep working with the dog. I did and before long it did it again. Yes, the dog got the whipping of it's life and that time went home. I told the owner he should put the dog down before it attacks someone else, he didn't. About 5 or 6 months later the dog attacked his wife. She got bit up pretty bad and he finally put the dog down.

You can't save them all and dog's like that need put down before someone really gets hurt.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:05 am

Dogs like this are how the new breed of "behaviorist" and "problem dog" trainers make their living. There is no solution because you have a dog that would rather kill another dog than eat or hunt. He may be great with people. Dog killers often are. I'd rather deal with ten dogs that are iffy with people than one that's tried to kill another dog.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:07 am

For what its worth, it sounds like your head is pretty sound and you are doing the best you can. With aggression it can be a protective gesture or posturing as mentioned but I think this sounds a bit over the top. I wonder if it extreme possesive behaviour?? Over food toys and a bird? If so go a trainer with experience with aggression might be able to help some but you will always have a demon in the closet, so to speak and will need to never fully trust him.
We have one very dog aggressive male. He challenges other males and dominant females. I would never trust him with a puppy. He is a great blood tracking dog but needs to be handled with care around strangers as well. Basically after some serious thoughts of placing him we decided not to pass off the problem to anyone else. He is a full time kennel dog now and hunts alone or with certain females that ignore his behavior and avoid him.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:16 am

I am relatively new to training of hunting dogs (at least bird dogs), but one thing I have quite a bit of experience with (almost 25 years total), is training agressive dogs. I was a Military Working Dog Trainer and Instructor for many years. Agression is okay if it is controlled. We actually make a business out of training "controlled agression" into our Police Dogs and Military Working Dogs. Dog Fighting is something totally different. I hate to say it, but I agree with many of the other posts on this topic. Normally, in my experience with "Dog Fighters" it is seldom able to be corrected. As many have said, it is one thing for a dog to show agression as a form of demonstrating dominance, but if your dog is attacking females and pups, he is in it for the sport, and simply does not like other dogs. In many cases, it is a "Handler Protective" Trait. If other dogs get close to the handler, the dog acts out in agression. The problem with that is another handler can work the dog and not have the problems, but as soon as the dog is returned to the owner, viola, agression is back. I hate to say it, but the dog may have to be put down.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:18 am

For some reason my posts size is limited lately.... probably a plot to shut me up

What I was going to say is.... he is my husbands dog and my husband sees him as improving. If he were mine I am not sure I could take the liabilty. He hws granted never sent another dog to the vet yet and he is a pain to manage with having to be so careful all the time.
last point... there are some medical conditions and forms of epilepsy tyat present as rage and aggession. If you feel its getting worse it could be that. Animal control brought a rottie in to our ckinic that the owners said was 6. He had been swet and friendly all his life but had started to turn on first strangers and then family too. When officer entered the house the dog jumped down on her from the top of the stairs. She tazed in in mid air! Anyway had a brain tumor apperant xray. Was put down. Also spaniels carry a form of epilepsy known as "cocker rage " and is genetic. Dont know of it in vislas... but I through it out therr for you anyway.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:49 am

BirdDogJoe,

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your dog. However, I had an aggressive and unpredictable dog once. She really meant alot to me, and I really don't like to discuss it. Everyone on GDF who knows me very well knows the story of my "Brownie" dog, & she isn't with me anymore.

Life is full of tough decisions, and they're usually not fair.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Jess

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:26 am

mountaindogs wrote:For some reason my posts size is limited lately.... probably a plot to shut me up
What I was going to say is.... he is my husbands dog and my husband sees him as improving. If he were mine I am not sure I could take the liabilty. He hws granted never sent another dog to the vet yet and he is a pain to manage with having to be so careful all the time.
last point... there are some medical conditions and forms of epilepsy tyat present as rage and aggession. If you feel its getting worse it could be that. Animal control brought a rottie in to our ckinic that the owners said was 6. He had been swet and friendly all his life but had started to turn on first strangers and then family too. When officer entered the house the dog jumped down on her from the top of the stairs. She tazed in in mid air! Anyway had a brain tumor apperant xray. Was put down. Also spaniels carry a form of epilepsy known as "cocker rage " and is genetic. Dont know of it in vislas... but I through it out therr for you anyway.

Idiopathic Rage Syndrome, while found in other breeds, is commonly called Springer rage and has been anecdotally documented for decades. Recent studies indicate it may be a form of epilepsy and also genetic. However, IRS dogs typically target humans as well as other animals and don't wait to strike. While the vizsla here may have a health issue, it sounds more like he is a natural born dog killer.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:11 am

First, I'm really sorry about this situation. Very sorry. I lived with a dog that was strikingly similar except it was never triggered by food. It started after I got him back from a pro. He attacked both males and females alike and his intent was not to dominate but to kill. This dog had to be forever isolated or wear a greyhound muzzle which allows drinking panting etc. if you cannot provide this dog isolation, this dog has little hope.
He is a liability. Rehoming him will be a liability to you and the new owner. There will be very few homes which will be able to deal with this level of responsibility, a true dog person. If you can't be 100% comfortable with the situation this dog goes in to, I urge you to strongly consider putting this dog down.
We had to modify our lives for this dog to continue to live with us, but it was worth it to have him that additional year.

Secondly, I reccomend you get a FULL thyroid panel done, incuding t3 and t4. After a year and a half of research, tests, etc, i Had to euthanize my boy too long after i should have. My dog ended up having a brain tumor.

Look for all the options and contact the breeder ASAP of you can.
My heart goes out to you

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:19 am

No need to put a V down just yet. Send him to me for a few months and give him a chance. If I can't sort him out then we can discuss the next step. I haven't me a V yet that I can't sort out and I have met, trained and handled some really tough males. There is a male out here that tried to kill a 8 week old puppy of mine a few years ago. I handled that very same dog this past season in 5 field trials and he placed in all 5. People were suggesting for that owner to put him down but today he is a good citizen and he isn't even neutered.

The VCA recommends sending the dog to a rescue group or breeder before euthanizing it. If I can re-habilitate him, I will give you the option if you want to try him again.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:22 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:BirdDogJoe,

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your dog. However, I had an aggressive and unpredictable dog once. She really meant alot to me, and I really don't like to discuss it. Everyone on GDF who knows me very well knows the story of my "Brownie" dog, & she isn't with me anymore.

Life is full of tough decisions, and they're usually not fair.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Jess

I remember that well, Jess. Wouldn't wish that on anybody.

The brain - canine or human - is a very fragile thing. When something's not quite right -there's not much that can be done to fix it.

Only tough decisions in this case, Joe. Good luck.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:23 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:No need to put a V down just yet. Send him to me for a few months and give him a chance. If I can't sort him out then we can discuss the next step. I haven't me a V yet that I can't sort out and I have met, trained and handled some really tough males. There is a male out here that tried to kill a 8 week old puppy of mine a few years ago. I handled that very same dog this past season in 5 field trials and he placed in all 5. People were suggesting for that owner to put him down but today he is a good citizen and he isn't even neutered.

The VCA recommends sending the dog to a rescue group or breeder before euthanizing it. If I can re-habilitate him, I will give you the option if you want to try him again.

VERY NICE. Joe - this is the option I'd choose if the dog were mine!!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:40 am

Cajun, I agree doesnt fit the profile.

And AGREE if you have someone who knows the breed willing to help, with experience in aggression, look into it and see what can be worked out.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:11 pm

Oh, I have experience with aggressive Vizslas. One tried to kill an 8 wk old pup of mine and since then, he is an angel around the same dog. I even placed him in 5 out of 5 FT stakes this season.

No promises on this dog but the offer stands.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:25 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:These are harsh words, but that dog needs to be put down.

I agree . You may have that dog for 15years. YOu can't watch him every minute and he can't be trusted. Definately no more trials.

BirdDogJoe · Post by **BirdDogJoe** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:52 pm

The breeder has offered to take him back.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:55 pm

I'm glad to hear. I hope he is able to live an incident free life. Sorry for your loss of a family member. It's never easy.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:57 pm

BirdDogJoe wrote:The breeder has offered to take him back.

That is your best option. You tried and you are not going to have a stress free experience with this animal, so let the breeder deal with it. That is their responsibility.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:08 pm

PM me who your breeder is. I work with several rescue groups and foster care Vizlas. I just wanna make sure the dog is not put down yet.

Kona dawg · Post by **Kona dawg** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:17 pm

Mike50 wrote:Be careful with the E collar. I've read they can perceive the ecollar nick as a attack by the other dog and send them into a rage that only has one outcome.

+1. Learned this the hard way

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:03 pm

Good luck with your decision, it is gonna be a tuff one I can tell
Fester

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:19 pm

Going to make this short and sweet................ magical blue sleeping serum at the vet.I myself do NOT put up with that type of behavior.If the VCA wants to retain these type genetics they are not very smart.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:32 pm

Huh? From what I gather, this isn't genetics. Vizslas are a gental breed And anyone suggesting it Be put down without a second chance should be put down themselves: They don't call them Velcro Dogs for no reason. They are one of the most loving and loyal breeds in existence.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:33 pm

Sounds like the dog has had more second chances than any dog deserves.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:37 pm

This dog hasn't any chance. Send it ro me and I'll show what can be done.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:45 pm

You also need to realize that this kind of behavior WILL affect your pup and it's temperament. And not in a good way. You definitely don't want 2 dogs with temperament problems. Just a thought.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:55 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Huh? From what I gather, this isn't genetics. Vizslas are a gental breed And anyone suggesting it Be put down without a second chance should be put down themselves: They don't call them Velcro Dogs for no reason. They are one of the most loving and loyal breeds in existence.

So, beyond letting this dog live, would you breed this dog based on personality alone?

They are one of the most loving and loyal breeds in existence.

They don't call them Velcro Dogs for no reason.

Vizslas are a gental breed

So all these things can be genetic, but aggression can't?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:02 pm

This isn't genetic, it's the environment. I wouldn't have offered to take it if I wasn't 100-% sure.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:06 pm

Oh, I didn't say I would breed it, I just said I would save it from euthanasia. Big differencece.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:15 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Oh, I didn't say I would breed it, I just said I would save it from euthanasia. Big differencece.

I didn't say you were going to breed it. I asked you a question.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:18 pm

I would save money with a $.50 treatment.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:31 pm

I hAve "fixed more than one V who others said put them down. With Vizslas it's almost always a situational thing. Heck, it's no different than Pit bulls. They can be sweet or they can be what they are raised to be.