orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I have a question concerning the real color of a German shorthair if I this white than the whole body is white and if a white pup has markings then well you would not see the markings. Should I register my German shorthair pups white when the are infact orange and lemon. If someone could shine some light on this subject I would be thankful.or should I destroy them or pass them as hunting dogs when the e gene is in the breed any way. Thanks chuck
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
German shorthaired pointers correctly come in black or liver with their patterns being solid, patched, patched and ticked, or patched and roan. Even dogs with the double pointer "e" will have visible color and patterning by the time they are two weeks old unless they are albinos. I don't believe you could get an orange shorthair, only lemon, but that may be totally off.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
IMO I would find homes for the pups and withhold the reg. papers.Hanshaw wrote:I have a question concerning the real color of a German shorthair if I this white than the whole body is white and if a white pup has markings then well you would not see the markings. Should I register my German shorthair pups white when the are infact orange and lemon. If someone could shine some light on this subject I would be thankful.or should I destroy them or pass them as hunting dogs when the e gene is in the breed any way
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Are these newborns? What color are their noses?
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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I'd like to see a ped if you can.
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I'm with find them homes and with hold the papers.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
The pups are out of cally which is out of shake the bank and sired by tonellies rising sun artificiled to din city slick ace. Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
So if they are lemon and white, No One can breed them and sell them as registerable dogs. . People think it is acceptable to breed a fault and call them rare....
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
hmmm lil miller in the woodshed
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I'm opinionated on this subject. DNA only shows sire and dam a correct. There is more than likely EP in the ancestry. Maybe a Ep used as stud instead of a GSP.Hanshaw wrote: Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I will have pedigree finished tomorrow. Thanks brad. Chuck
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I agree that the DNA only shows sire and dam, I have the same question.chuck
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Exactly bird dog this pic of your pointer is what the lemon looks like with a cut tail. The orange is definitely orange. Thanks for all the help guys. Chuck
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Ultra carry yes this is the breeding.chuck
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
The only color codes for German shorthairs are for black and liver. Orange dogs have black noses, lemons have pinkish brown. Some lemons are darker orange than some oranges. You can, indeed, do everything with these pups except put them in the Conformation ring. As far as their FDSB registration, you can probably put lemon on those papers if you choose.Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
http://www.akc.org/registration/colormarkings.cfm
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
You are right, all of the above is true. You asked for opinions and yuo're getting them. I get the feeling you are a inexprianced breeder. My question to you. Do you want pass on very undesirable traits?Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
Last edited by Ms. Cage on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
There are ethics involved in a breeding program that should follow the breed standard. Lemon and white shorthairs are a fault and it is exploiting a recessive trait that is not ment to be dominant. There are ethics involved and we all know some people just would like to act like they are perfect, special dogs that may be worth breeding in the future, but as far as the breed goes will you be doing more damage than good? You could do three things but I'm guessing your a man and will make your own decisions.Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
So, your Kimber dog is "e" clear?ultracarry wrote:There are ethics involved in a breeding program that should follow the breed standard. Lemon and white shorthairs are a fault and it is exploiting a recessive trait that is not ment to be dominant. There are ethics involved and we all know some people just would like to act like they are perfect, special dogs that may be worth breeding in the future, but as far as the breed goes will you be doing more damage than good? You could do three things but I'm guessing your a man and will make your own decisions.Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
There are a lot.of dogs with it and I'm sure the owner of a lot of these dogs with OT won't effect them breeding, just ensure the male.or female is not a carrier. If the owner is responsible and wants to make sure they can breed to what ever dog they want, sure get it tested. If they want to limit who they breed to then that's fine too. Just don't breed carrier to carrier.
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
That's really the best option in my book but to each his own.....DonF wrote:I'm with find them homes and with hold the papers.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Sorry for my lack of intelligence what is out .chuck
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I would look at is as a great sign maybe they're carrying a lot of pointer blood in them. What happened to worrying about the main thing of breeding good to good or best to best? I say you keep them, register them, and let any possible buyer know in advance of what you all are talking about. I am a pointer man so I am not up to the standard on this topic, but I believe as long as you notify the future buyers in advance all ethical issues are taken care of. Best of luck, SCK
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
I know this is a huge disappointment, considering the trouble and expense to produce this litter. If it were me, I would test them for dilute color and keep them unless I was absolutely sure they would not be bred.Hanshaw wrote:Sorry for my lack of intelligence what is out .chuck
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Your joking , right!!!!sckwest1 wrote:I would look at is as a great sign maybe they're carrying a lot of pointer blood in them. What happened to worrying about the main thing of breeding good to good or best to best? I say you keep them, register them, and let any possible buyer know in advance of what you all are talking about. I am a pointer man so I am not up to the standard on this topic, but I believe as long as you notify the future buyers in advance all ethical issues are taken care of. Best of luck, SCK
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Let's not point fingers... I bred Ace semen to a lot tighter bred Slick female and got liver/white and liver/roan pups...Cajun Casey wrote:They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
No pointing to it. I've seen three and can give you names privately, if you like, on two. It's there, just like it is in another bloodline which, I might add, I'm stuck with. I don't think it's a major deal, but it is unfair if the breeder wasn't aware of the possibility. It may be something wholly different than "e" genetics, but it is significant.Middlecreek wrote:Let's not point fingers... I bred Ace semen to a lot tighter bred Slick female and got liver/white and liver/roan pups...Cajun Casey wrote:They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
what do you mean by the double e? not trying to be funny but is that english pointer on top and bottom?
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
This is a very interesting thread....Please forgive my ingorance..... As a novice with GSP's and really don't know anything about the breed other than I really like them, can you test the dogs to see if they are not pure GSP? If not how do you what you are buying???
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Cajun Casey wrote:But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.sckwest1 wrote:what do you mean by the double e? not trying to be funny but is that english pointer on top and bottom?
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
You will notice that I have mentioned several times that there could be something entirely different and unknown going on. Random mutations, like the MD line of GSPs that are not related to the Golden retrievers with the same mutation do occur.Brooks Carmichael wrote:Cajun Casey wrote:But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
But that does mean Slick lines definitely have some pointer thrown in then?Cajun Casey wrote:Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
You can test for the "e".TRoberts wrote:This is a very interesting thread....Please forgive my ingorance..... As a novice with GSP's and really don't know anything about the breed other than I really like them, can you test the dogs to see if they are not pure GSP? If not how do you what you are buying???
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Not necessarily and the expression could be from something totally separate from simple color. It could be related to albinism ot could even be an environmental effect on a dominant gene.bb560m wrote:But that does mean Slick lines definitely have some pointer thrown in then?Cajun Casey wrote:Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
+1ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
You will notice that I have mentioned several times that there could be something entirely different and unknown going on. Random mutations, like the MD line of GSPs that are not related to the Golden retrievers with the same mutation do occur.[/quote]Cajun Casey wrote: I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.
Mutations and E factor do not appear in a whole litter but just as individuals.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Mutations and E factor do not appear in a whole litter but just as individuals.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
+2gotpointers wrote:ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?+1
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Cajun Casey wrote:Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
I trust and believe Casey a lot. Anyone else not so much. If she has a hunch about something I would check into it before dispelling judgements.
But in other cases there's plenty of pointers with clipped tails and pointers being bred into other breeds.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Thanks. Other offbeat colored dogs I've been aware of were one, maybe two in a litter. For the whole, even being small, litter to be weird, is, well, weird. If these pups aren't "ee," then we may have something new and it may have to do with how that AI sample was handled.gotpointers wrote:Cajun Casey wrote:Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
I trust and believe Casey a lot. Anyone else not so much. If she has a hunch about something I would check into it before dispelling judgements.
But in other cases there's plenty of pointers with clipped tails and pointers being bred into other breeds.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Please post pictures of the pups.
Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs
Is there at all a chance that the seman may have been switched? A mistake at the vets? If that is the case then DNA could help. It could show that maybe the wrong seman was used?????
I to would like to see pictures.
I to would like to see pictures.