Walking with a leash

pkbirdog · Post by **pkbirdog** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:45 pm

I have a 5 month old GWP. I have been reading a book called "How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves" and so far most everything is going great with the early conditioning. Except for the leash conditioning. I take her on runs about 4 times a week and to 5 or 6 different locations. One of the locations is a short walk from my house so I put her on a leash for about 1/4 mile and then when we get there I cut her loose. During the walk to the field she is pulling as hard as she can the whole way, choking herself the entire time. The book says that after a while the leash should be loose while we are walking and thats its not formal "heel" training but leads to it later on in the training. It also says that I'm supposed to pull upward on the leash and not back on it. That seems impossible. When I pull up on it she ends up walking on her back 2 legs.

What am I doing wrong?
Should I walk her more often?
Should I even worry about it?

Here's a picture of her.

pennyfarmer · Post by **pennyfarmer** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:21 pm

I have not trained a lot of dogs but it sounds like she is looking forward to the leash free jaunt. One thing might help is to take a different route if possible. Your dog may recognize the trip and get more excited. Early in my dogs training I never took him the same way two times in a row. You could also try reversing directions intermittently. That helped my dog to learn heel. If he doesn't know where you are going she will look for your lead a bit more and hopefully want to heel.

Just my 2 cents and thats all its worth.

Good luck.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:09 am

If you use upward pressure.... the collar needs to be way up under the chin. Just slide it up all the way with you hand under the chin. If the dog comes off their front feet the collar is too low. The dog is just demonstrating opositional reflex. REFLEX. Like you blink you eyes when something is close to them. You can train a dog to replace this behavior, but if you apply pressure the dog will reflexively resist it If they can.
That said walking a dog with high pressure with really only makes the dog walkable while you are using it not "teach " a nice leash walk. I have "heel " for testing competition and the like but for day to day I train a "lets walk " or lets go. Means loose leash walking. Look up willow creek heel video. I like the way they train it.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:46 am

pk -

Nice looking dog BTW.

Seems to me the book is sending you mixed messages and you are getting confused. I'm not so sure what they are saying either.

Here's the way I see it:

The dog is OBVIOUSLY excited about going for a run and wants to get there so it can have fun. Not at all unexpected...and quite honestly, I would have some serious reservations about a dog that was NOT excited.

When you are walking the dog on a lead, you are , for better or worse...heeling the dog. That is an obedience behavior and needs to be trained and reinforced.

When you are walking the dog on a lead, even if the dog is not being required to heel in a formal sense, the dog should walk reasonably quietly by your side.

OK....so how do you get your dog to do that? Two ways...

1- Teach the dog to heel and heel the dog to the exercise area.

I typically do it this way. I start heel/whoa drills with my dogs at 16-18 weeks and build on this as they get older, but that is just my way. it is not necessary.

2- Teach the dog not to pull.

The easiest way i know of to teach a dog not to pull on the lead is the flank hitch. You take the leash or checkcord, run it along the top of the dog's back up to the front of the rear legs. Then you loop the leash or checkcord around the belly and UNDER the portion that is on the top of the dog's back. This creates a half hitch around the dog's waist. If the dog pulls forward, the half hitch tightens around the dog's belly. The harder they pull, the tighter the belly constriction gets.

I have seen a 90 pound lady walk an unruly 70 pound bird dog tht had been taught what a flank hitch feels like. They DO NOT like the feeling of their belly getting squeezed and stop pulling almost immediately. Even the most boisterous of dogs will dial it right down. Once they know what is coming...a quick tug on the lead will really get their attention

It is not the "classic" heel, becaus the dog is actually out in front of you a bit, but boy oh boy do they learn to walk with a loose lead....and real quickly too.

You can actually loop a checkcord back under the dog's flat collar and make what is essentailly a suitcase handle, with the dog being the sitcase. Most dogs do not need this level of control.

RayG

Good luck and have fun.

RayG

Post by **topher40** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:01 pm

Ray gave good advice, get a pinch or prong collar also.

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:39 pm

I am having walking on leash troubles as well with my 11 month old ES. We walk every day and you would think he would get sick of choking himself. He hasn't yet. The only upside is that he get's some resistance training trying to drag 200 pounds for a mile and a half. I can handle it but it's annoying. The wife, not so much. I might have to try ray's tactic with the hitch around his belly.

seacowboy · Post by **seacowboy** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:02 pm

My wife uses the 'Gentle Leader' collar with great success to prevent pulling while walking. Not as aggressive as the pinch collars.

benelli · Post by **benelli** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm

I don't know if this is an "approved" technique or not, but it worked well for us when a Gentle Leader, Easy Walk harness, and choke collar all failed to have a good effect. (I also got our previous dog, a Boxer, to stop pulling using this same technique a couple years back. Right now we have an 8 month old GSP.)

Anyway, I have him in a regular flat collar with a normal leash. I walk with a bit of slack in the leash, and when he gets out in front/starts to tug, I "snap" the leash against his back/shoulder - kind of like how a stagecoach driver would snap the reins on the horses' backs, if that makes sense. At first I had to do it a lot over the course of a walk, but now it's only occasionally that I have to do it, and most of the time just flicking my wrist a little, so the leash taps him but doesn't pop against him, is enough to get him back in position.

But I don't know if that is an approved technique for bird dogs or if there would be any downsides to it, I just know it's worked for me.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:55 pm

as pup gets older,it will get better.take stops while walking aND SAY HEEL.keep leash short and try to keep pup next to your leg with his head or just out a little. take treats and stop and say,COOKIE OR HEEL WHATEVER.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:49 pm

I would get a chain chock collar or one with the prongs. Have a knowledgable person show you how to put it on.If you put it on backwards it will not release properly. Then do regular obedience training.

aulrich · Post by **aulrich** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:10 pm

I use the flank half hich and that works real well. just over the weekend I had something I read pop back into mind. I think it was Hundsmiths "figure 8", but basically it's a half hitch over the muzzle, mine always want to know where the end if the leash is but after he pitched the initial fit it worked like a charm. The dog in essence self corrects if they get to far ahead they clamp down on themself. The last part of that walk was the best he has ever been on leash and I layed on the "atta boy's" real thick on the way home.

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:04 pm

I just tried the half hitch around the belly. It worked remarkably well until the heavens opened up on us. Just my luck! The dog tried his usual pulling twice and was quite surprised at having his belly squeezed and collar pulled. He bit at the lead both times. I got him settled back down and started our walk again. He was hessitant to pull after that. I'm eager to get a full walk in and see how he does tomorrow.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:10 pm

You are training your dog to pull you, to go forward . Since you have been giving the dog consistent reinforcement and reward for this behavior it will continue to happen. If you chose to go with a corrective measure such as a pinch or prong collar it may work as long as you have the pinch or prong collar on the dog. The dog may also accept the correction to get what it wants and continue to pull in spite of the collar. If you would like to use training to teach your dog how to walk on the leash. Simply stop allowing the dog to pull and stop rewarding it by moving forward. When the dog pulls on you, stand still. When the dog starts to relax, move forward. Your forward momentum should be the cue that tells the dog to walk. As soon as the leash gets tight stop moving. This may take some time since your dog has been trained to pull. This method works with out putting the dog in pain.

pkbirdog · Post by **pkbirdog** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:53 pm

I appreciate all the quick responses.

Ray, the book I am reading focuses on conditioning and keeping everything fun and it dosen't go into any detail on how to get your pup to walk calmly on a leash. Your method seems correct. Im going to give the half hitch around the waist a try along with 4dabirds method of only walking when the leash is loose. Is there a book that will go into more details or a DVD that will help with this kind of puppy stuff?

4dabirds, you are right, I have done nothing but reinforce this behavior, I have a lot to learn. Pup is a quick learner, but she is a pup and tests me constantly. I'm sure I will be asking a lot more questions in the next year or two.

By the way, what is the deal with my pup digging in her water bowl? My old shorthair has always done this and my new pup has done this since day one. Is it just a bird dog thing? I always thought they did it to keep cool but here we are in almost winter and she is still doing it.

Thanks,
Paul

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:57 pm

4dabirds wrote:You are training your dog to pull you, to go forward . Since you have been giving the dog consistent reinforcement and reward for this behavior it will continue to happen. If you chose to go with a corrective measure such as a pinch or prong collar it may work as long as you have the pinch or prong collar on the dog. The dog may also accept the correction to get what it wants and continue to pull in spite of the collar. If you would like to use training to teach your dog how to walk on the leash. Simply stop allowing the dog to pull and stop rewarding it by moving forward. When the dog pulls on you, stand still. When the dog starts to relax, move forward. Your forward momentum should be the cue that tells the dog to walk. As soon as the leash gets tight stop moving. This may take some time since your dog has been trained to pull. This method works with out putting the dog in pain.

This will work though it takes longer to get the same results.

Ezzy

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 pm

pkbirdog wrote:I appreciate all the quick responses.

Ray, the book I am reading focuses on conditioning and keeping everything fun and it dosen't go into any detail on how to get your pup to walk calmly on a leash. Your method seems correct. Im going to give the half hitch around the waist a try along with 4dabirds method of only walking when the leash is loose.

Sounds like a very intelligent way to proceed. You are allowing the dog to learn in two ways instead of just one. Just keep it as positive as you can when the dog does what you want it to.

Keeping it fun and fresh, especially when doing repetitive lessons, is absolutely the thing to do with a youngster, and not always easy. Sometimes you gotta press it a little.

However, as you so correctly observed...what we allow the dog to do...we teach the dog to do. Took me a looong time to figure that one out. I still mess up on that one occasionally.

RayG

dreamerofdreams · Post by **dreamerofdreams** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:08 pm

My girl is not a fan of loose leash. We've had success with the half hitch. Also, carrying a treat in your hand around your belly helps. If she thinks she's going to get a nibble, she'll stick right by my side. Don't have to do it all the time, just sometimes.

birdyhunter · Post by **birdyhunter** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:53 am

With my gsp it took a steady dose of short 10 minute walks every day on the lead with a pinch collar. Be consistent and it won't take the dog long to understand what you are wanting from him.

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:07 pm

Ive tried everything with my GSP, even trainers, and nothing seems to work except a pinch collar. I hate using them, but its the only way my wife can walk her. The one trainer I used had a leather collar with metal pins in it and she responded well to that. I read something on here a while back about a guy who took a weight lifting belt and made a few mods and made it to where he could hook a leash into it. It was meant to let the dog pull with a harness while getting a workout for you as well. I think he is onto something. I live in a city so I am goping to do the same thing. Good workout for both parties. Good luck and let me know if you find something that works.

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