Shooting Dog vs All Age

[slistoe]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

[AZ Brittany Guy]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

Have you ever seen a dog that had great genetics that got ruined by a poor trainer?

[Allin13]

I would say 50% genetics

[slistoe]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

Have you ever seen a dog that had great genetics that got ruined by a poor trainer?

Maybe - how do you tell?
Have you ever known a dog with defective genetics that was made great by a good trainer? I haven't. If they aren't born with the requisite physical and mental aptitudes there is nothing anyone is going to do to change that. Once they are born they require the proper environment to fully develop the gifts they were given.
So - 100% genetics then 99% environment (to allow for the dogs that self develop in any environment)

[Saddle]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

This is not accurate at all. Even if a dog is gifted genetically if he's not developed right he won't turn out right. I agree the genetics have to be there but development is an equally important part.

[Allin13]

Saddle, i think seabiscuit sums that up. His trainer said he was to small, lazy and would never be anything. But in the right hands became a great horse.

[Grange]

You've got dogs that are capable getting it done in a trial and they go faster and further than a dog that has a hunting pace. That's not really much different than the point I made.

By the way, my dogs go at a hunting pace.

You want to argue that a hunting pace and trialing pace are the same. You said your dogs get wore down when hunting. When it is noticeable that a dog is getting wore down it is not going at a trial pace. So even if we assume your dogs are hunting at a trial pace they are only hunting at that pace for part of the hunt. Yet even when your dogs aren't going at a trial pace because they are getting wore down they are still going harder and further than other dogs going at more of a hunting pace.

[slistoe]

I'm sorry that you have comprehension problems Grange. When I am hunting my dogs are going at a hunting pace - they don't know the difference between hunting and trialing, all they know is that I am turning them loose again. To them, trialing is hunting and hunting is trialing and they just give it all they have till I put the lead on them.

[JKP]

Now the real tough concept for you to understand. I am 100% behind anyone who gets out and does something with their dogs and I wish them all the best and hope their dogs please them. Where it breaks down is when the courtesy is not returned - when I am told that because I run a dog in a trial I am not really a hunter, when someone who is enjoying their dog the way it is cannot be satisfied with that and tries to make out that a dog with greater stamina and speed is somehow inferior because of it. Hunt what you want, hunt them how you want, be happy about it - and have the common courtesy to respect that in others. I WILL hunt a hard charging, wide ranging dog in the tightest of ruffed grouse coverts and I WILL enjoy it, even if it may be outside the realm of comprehension of the arrogant and ignorant many who will vociferously protest otherwise.

Who is protesting?? I send in my dues to NRA, Phez Forever, DU, Boone and Crockett, etc, etc, etc every year and will defend your right to do with your dogs what you want with my last breath. My point through all of this is that what we are spending so much time on here at the fringe.....its the boy racer generation.....Formula 1 of the dog world....that is far removed from 99.99999% of today's hunters. We have already heard how the "top jockeys" regard the rest of us and our nags....heck, you have problems respecting one another.

My point is that 95% of the wild birds that are shot in this country require no more than a 200 yd walk to the dog....so bragging while pointing to the GPS pinned at 1200 yds is irrelevant....and for 99+% of the people who take out their dogs on the weekend. Have fun...I really mean that...but what comes through as I "listen" to this discussion is just a whole lot of ego, muscle flexing, and bravado and that's not why I have dogs, train and go hunting. Most folks slay the dragons 40-60 hours a week....at work.

BTW, if these dogs are so good...putting all others in the shade....covering 4X the ground with noses detecting single birds at 100 yds...why for the last 22 years are the longtailers not back at my local ND diner by noon limited out...
I know what the answer will be...."Well, the dogs pointed 150 birds before lunch...but...we only shot 3"...right????

But.... chatter on....I'll put on the "testosterone" filter...

[Grange]

I'm sorry that you have comprehension problems Grange. When I am hunting my dogs are going at a hunting pace - they don't know the difference between hunting and trialing, all they know is that I am turning them loose again. To them, trialing is hunting and hunting is trialing and they just give it all they have till I put the lead on them.

It doesn't matter what you dogs' know. I am not discussing if a dog knows the difference between hunting and trialing. Some dogs do while some, like yours, do not. What matters is what the judge at the trial thinks. A dog that is wearing down as you put it likely won't place in a trial. So assuming your dogs really are running like a good dog in a trial then they are running at trial pace while hunting. However when they start to wear down they are no longer running at a trial pace and they aren't running like a good dog in a trial.

When someone talks about a trial pace they should be talking about the overall or average pace of the dog during the trial whether it's 1/2 hour, 1 hour or three hours. When someone says a hunting pace that should mean about the overall pace while hunting. That includes when the dog is fresh and when it's getting wore down. So when someone says cover or walking trial dog's are akin to a hunting dog pace I will firmly disagree.

[brad27]

My point through all of this is that what we are spending so much time on here at the fringe.....its the boy racer generation.....Formula 1 of the dog world....that is far removed from 99.99999% of today's hunters. We have already heard how the "top jockeys" regard the rest of us and our nags....heck, you have problems respecting one another.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

Have you ever seen a dog that had great genetics that got ruined by a poor trainer?

Maybe - how do you tell?
Have you ever known a dog with defective genetics that was made great by a good trainer? I haven't. If they aren't born with the requisite physical and mental aptitudes there is nothing anyone is going to do to change that. Once they are born they require the proper environment to fully develop the gifts they were given.
So - 100% genetics and 99% environment (to allow for the dogs that self develop in any environment)

I do agree with you that there may be little hope for bad genitics but I have seen dogs (great genitics) that showed terriffic potential as a pup / derby that got sent to a trainer that came back a completely different dog. There may be the next Ban Dee sitting one someones couch that will never be able to develop his great potential. What makes a champion vs a non champion? Sometimes it just the opportunity (read enviornment). I think there are better handlers / trainers than me and they can get more out of a dog then I can. Thats why some of us send our dogs to a pro.

[Aslowhiteguy]

100% genetics. If they don't have it, environment will not give it to them.
Once they are born, 99% environment (everyone knows of "that dog" that is great despite the owner/trainer)

Have you ever seen a dog that had great genetics that got ruined by a poor trainer?

You've just described every dog I've owned.

[slistoe]

I do agree with you that there may be little hope for bad genitics but I have seen dogs (great genitics) that showed terriffic potential as a pup / derby that got sent to a trainer that came back a completely different dog. There may be the next Ban Dee sitting one someones couch that will never be able to develop his great potential. What makes a champion vs a non champion? Sometimes it just the opportunity (read enviornment). I think there are better handlers / trainers than me and they can get more out of a dog then I can. Thats why some of us send our dogs to a pro.

Which is why I said, after the genetics are determined (at conception?) whether the dog develops to its full genetic potential is 99% environment. But if the genetics aren't there in the first place, environment is meaningless.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I do agree with you that there may be little hope for bad genitics but I have seen dogs (great genitics) that showed terriffic potential as a pup / derby that got sent to a trainer that came back a completely different dog. There may be the next Ban Dee sitting one someones couch that will never be able to develop his great potential. What makes a champion vs a non champion? Sometimes it just the opportunity (read enviornment). I think there are better handlers / trainers than me and they can get more out of a dog then I can. Thats why some of us send our dogs to a pro.

Which is why I said, after the genetics are determined (at conception?) whether the dog develops to its full genetic potential is 99% environment. But if the genetics aren't there in the first place, environment is meaningless.

Agreed. I misread what you said....my bad. To me I equate training a dog to "home schooling" a child. I can take them through K - 12th grade but if the child has the talent to be a Doctor then I will need to send him to med school.

[Redneck]

Now the real tough concept for you to understand. I am 100% behind anyone who gets out and does something with their dogs and I wish them all the best and hope their dogs please them. Where it breaks down is when the courtesy is not returned - when I am told that because I run a dog in a trial I am not really a hunter, when someone who is enjoying their dog the way it is cannot be satisfied with that and tries to make out that a dog with greater stamina and speed is somehow inferior because of it. Hunt what you want, hunt them how you want, be happy about it - and have the common courtesy to respect that in others. I WILL hunt a hard charging, wide ranging dog in the tightest of ruffed grouse coverts and I WILL enjoy it, even if it may be outside the realm of comprehension of the arrogant and ignorant many who will vociferously protest otherwise.

Who is protesting?? I send in my dues to NRA, Phez Forever, DU, Boone and Crockett, etc, etc, etc every year and will defend your right to do with your dogs what you want with my last breath. My point through all of this is that what we are spending so much time on here at the fringe.....its the boy racer generation.....Formula 1 of the dog world....that is far removed from 99.99999% of today's hunters. We have already heard how the "top jockeys" regard the rest of us and our nags....heck, you have problems respecting one another.

My point is that 95% of the wild birds that are shot in this country require no more than a 200 yd walk to the dog....so bragging while pointing to the GPS pinned at 1200 yds is irrelevant....and for 99+% of the people who take out their dogs on the weekend. Have fun...I really mean that...but what comes through as I "listen" to this discussion is just a whole lot of ego, muscle flexing, and bravado and that's not why I have dogs, train and go hunting. Most folks slay the dragons 40-60 hours a week....at work.

BTW, if these dogs are so good...putting all others in the shade....covering 4X the ground with noses detecting single birds at 100 yds...why for the last 22 years are the longtailers not back at my local ND diner by noon limited out...
I know what the answer will be...."Well, the dogs pointed 150 birds before lunch...but...we only shot 3"...right????

But.... chatter on....I'll put on the "testosterone" filter...

You should have put it on before you wrote the last paragraph.......it was a decent post til then

[slistoe]

I do agree with you that there may be little hope for bad genitics but I have seen dogs (great genitics) that showed terriffic potential as a pup / derby that got sent to a trainer that came back a completely different dog. There may be the next Ban Dee sitting one someones couch that will never be able to develop his great potential. What makes a champion vs a non champion? Sometimes it just the opportunity (read enviornment). I think there are better handlers / trainers than me and they can get more out of a dog then I can. Thats why some of us send our dogs to a pro.

Which is why I said, after the genetics are determined (at conception?) whether the dog develops to its full genetic potential is 99% environment. But if the genetics aren't there in the first place, environment is meaningless.

Agreed. I misread what you said....my bad. To me I equate training a dog to "home schooling" a child. I can take them through K - 12th grade but if the child has the talent to be a Doctor then I will need to send him to med school.

And if the home schooling is being done by a doctor?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I hope it's not Dr. Kivorkian.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I hope it's not Dr. Kivorkian.