Any of you feed raw?

[Angus]

I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

Really? Can you please provide some sources for this info?

[displaced_texan]

Be careful if you give 'em peanut butter, don't glop on too much as it tends to glue their tongues to the roof of their mouths and their lips to their teeth

That's the best thing about giving them peanut butter!

[displaced_texan]

I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.

[ezzy333]

I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.

Sounds a little like your vet world is rather shaky. You do know the only difference between white brown eggs is the color of the shell. I would be more inclined to think that your vets do not know as much about nutrition to day as they used to when they actually had to study about all of the animals. But you can call it opening up.. Could you maybe get some of these vets that you converse with ti come on here and tell us what they know about nutrition and put a lot of stories to rest?

[walkos5]

I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.

Check out Roger Biduk; Some of the best vets comments on commercial diets.

Dr. Laurie Coger DVM of Albany NY- The AVMA is the puppet of the pet food industry.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst DVM- Commercial pet foods help provide patients for vets.
William Pollak DVM- Survival is insured by commercial pet food, nothing more, not health, not robustness for life.
Christina Chambreau DVM- Meats should be fed raw, cooking destroys enzymes and denatures the proteins rendering them less digestible.

Check out the 2012 lawsuit that involved a petition of 4000 in Connecticut, and some were even vets that feed raw.

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

[birddogger]

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

I can and will.

Charlie

[walkos5]

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them![/quote]
I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.[/quote]
Sounds a little like your vet world is rather shaky. You do know the only difference between white brown eggs is the color of the shell. I would be more inclined to think that your vets do not know as much about nutrition to day as they used to when they actually had to study about all of the animals. But you can call it opening up.. Could you maybe get some of these vets that you converse with ti come on here and tell us what they know about nutrition and put a lot of stories to rest?[/quote]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?

[Angus]

Check out Roger Biduk; Some of the best vets comments on commercial diets.

Dr. Laurie Coger DVM of Albany NY- The AVMA is the puppet of the pet food industry.
Dr. Ian Billinghurst DVM- Commercial pet foods help provide patients for vets.
William Pollak DVM- Survival is insured by commercial pet food, nothing more, not health, not robustness for life.
Christina Chambreau DVM- Meats should be fed raw, cooking destroys enzymes and denatures the proteins rendering them less digestible.

Check out the 2012 lawsuit that involved a petition of 4000 in Connecticut, and some were even vets that feed raw.

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

Honestly, you should learn how a Forum works. You claim and provide a source. Arguing opinions do not provide sources until you do.

Sources are a link or quote. Not telling us who or where to look. You provide the info.

If you want to be taken as anything more than a lap dog, ankle bitter, loving podium dog person, you better come up with factual info backing your claims. You made the claim, I am not going to search it. You provide it.

[Angus]

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.[/quote]
Sounds a little like your vet world is rather shaky. You do know the only difference between white brown eggs is the color of the shell. I would be more inclined to think that your vets do not know as much about nutrition to day as they used to when they actually had to study about all of the animals. But you can call it opening up.. Could you maybe get some of these vets that you converse with ti come on here and tell us what they know about nutrition and put a lot of stories to rest?[/quote]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?[/quote]

And what would a Natural Dog Diet consist of? Are dogs natural or man made? Can dogs survive without humans?

A wolf is not a Dog. DNA may be close, but Humans are close to Whales to on the DNA level. MOst living things on earth are related, only so many compounds and elements.

[walkos5]

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

I can and will.

Charlie

Ok I give up, why?

[slistoe]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?

NO. Nature provides a diet of opportunity only. It has nothing to do with good, better or best, simply "Hope I get to eat something today". If nature knew best then deer wouldn't starve to death in the winter with a full belly.

[slistoe]

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

I can and will.

Charlie

Ok I give up, why?

Because there is absolutely no evidence anywhere, of any kind, to substantiate the claim. So really, a 3 year old kid could deny the claim and be able to articulate his side as well as you can yours.

[walkos5]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?

NO. Nature provides a diet of opportunity only. It has nothing to do with good, better or best, simply "Hope I get to eat something today". If nature knew best then deer wouldn't starve to death in the winter with a full belly.

No one said nature isn't cruel. But don't try and tell me that the natural diet that nature provides for wild animals is not the best source for nutrition. Deer don't die if they have a full belly of a good variety natural feed unless weather is extreme and they freeze to death. Sure when overpopulation is the issue problems arise but that is usually a man made problem. Over browsing leads to bad forest environment for deer and when they can't find choice foods, deer then eat anything they can find to try and survive. And some die with full bellies of laurels and pine needles.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Walkos I guess the only reason you came to this forum was to tell ALL of us what food source is best for OUR dogs! Guess what it's not working so move on to another subject & tell us something useful. :roll:
You probably don't even own a dog. No proof of that has shown up either!

[walkos5]

Because there is absolutely no evidence anywhere, of any kind, to substantiate the claim. So really, a 3 year old kid could deny the claim and be able to articulate his side as well as you can yours.

What's the matter do those vet endorsements make you angry?

[walkos5]

Walkos I guess the only reason you came to this forum was to tell ALL of us what food source is best for OUR dogs! Guess what it's not working so move on to another subject & tell us something useful. :roll:
You probably don't even own a dog. No proof of that has shown up either!

It's coming, It's just that I have been busy cleaning all the pheasants my dog has been putting up. I can't move on just yet, there is so much more to cover.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Sounds like you know about as much about what a pointing dog is supposed to do as you do dog food!!

[slistoe]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?

NO. Nature provides a diet of opportunity only. It has nothing to do with good, better or best, simply "Hope I get to eat something today". If nature knew best then deer wouldn't starve to death in the winter with a full belly.

No one said nature isn't cruel. But don't try and tell me that the natural diet that nature provides for wild animals is not the best source for nutrition. Deer don't die if they have a full belly of a good variety natural feed unless weather is extreme and they freeze to death. Sure when overpopulation is the issue problems arise but that is usually a man made problem. Over browsing leads to bad forest environment for deer and when they can't find choice foods, deer then eat anything they can find to try and survive. And some die with full bellies of laurels and pine needles.

I didn't try to tell you that, I did tell you that. Nutrition in nature is "adapt or die".
Every post you make there is something new you don't understand. Extreme weather is simply a fact of life for life forms like deer. If nature was such a perfect provider then they would be well equipped with the proper feed to deal with it wouldn't they. Overpopulation is simply the way of nature. It is not a man-made problem at all. Boom and Bust is natures motto, not mans.
Supposing nature is the perfect example, which of the canid species are we to model after? Should it be the wolf, the coyote or the fox? Suppose it is the wolf. Do we model after a diet of mice and lemmings with juniper berries, or perhaps a steady diet of elk with a few mule deer thrown in. Some huckleberries and blueberries for good measure. Or maybe we want the wolf that eats from the garbage dumps outside the city. Let's pick the elk and mule deer because there is a certain romance to that one. Now do we use the alpha pair who eat the "byproducts", the mainstream on a meat and hair diet or the lowly end that seem to survive on bones and pickings? Which is the ideal as modelled for us by nature?
Scratch the wolf, I am going with the ranchland coyote - rotted beef. I'll feed him 20 lbs a day for 3 days and then nothing for a week.
Do you feed your dog a regularly timed, measured amount of feed each day? That is not nature's way you know.

[ezzy333]

Walkos I guess the only reason you came to this forum was to tell ALL of us what food source is best for OUR dogs! Guess what it's not working so move on to another subject & tell us something useful. :roll:
You probably don't even own a dog. No proof of that has shown up either!

It's coming, It's just that I have been busy cleaning all the pheasants my dog has been putting up. I can't move on just yet, there is so much more to cover.

You have proven what you know and only partially where it came from. My take is when I want to know something about nutrition I go to a nutritionist and when I want to know something about dog illnesses I will go to a vet. The reason I do that is I found that neither do much studying about the other field.

I have always wanted to know more about nutrition and the feeding of all livestock including our dogs. So I made it my life's work. And after all of that you tell me I don't know what I am talking about. And that is OK. Because you saying it has little influence on what I know but says a great deal about what you know. And since you have decided to get back to nature when we talk dogs, how about you practicing that in how you eat and live. I have found that in practically every aspect of life we have improved on what was "natural". Believe it or not our food is improved to the point that you wouldn't even recognize what was natural. And the same with our dogs, they would much prefer a good loaf of corn bread than to have to eat the corn off of the cob like they had to before. They much prefer to get their vegetables in a prepared feed than to dig or pick as they hunted.

The way you live tells me much more about how sincere you are about telling us natural is the only way when you don't live it and from your posts you don't even know what is natural in a dogs life.

An old saying is you learn nothing when your mouth is open and that might be extended to when your fingers are typing on a machine that isn't natural.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

No one can deny the growing movement of feeding raw as a better way to care for our dogs.

I can and will.

Charlie

You say no one can deny what you stated [with no evidence to back it up] and I say that I and anybody else can because there is absolutely no evidence of it. However, there is plenty of evidence that high performance dogs all over the country are doing well and THRIVING on whatever kibble the owners choose to feed. Whether or not raw is better than kibble or vise versa is a matter of opinion, but what I just stated is fact!

Charlie

[SCT]

http://thewholisticvet.com/?p=217

http://www.truecarnivores.com/nutrition/what-vets-say/

Here are a couple links. The true carnivores link seems to just have quotes. Now I will have to spend some time reading what these folks say about feeding raw.

Steve

[birddog1968]

http://www.rgj.com/article/20060409/COL56/604090301/

[SCT]

I would like to question him on this quote;

"Nutritionally, feeding these raw ingredients decreases their bioavailability while the cooking process increases the bioavailablity of nutrients."

"Bioavailability" refers to how much the body uses ingested nutrients instead of the nutrients passing through unused."

I guess one thing that keeps me wanting to feed raw (at least on a limited basis) is the fact that when I feed raw meat my dogs stools are so small and tight. Now, I'm talking about comparing dry food to wet food so it's a tough comparison but, I've seen it and don't need a veterinarians opinion on it. Try it sometime, feed your dog 1/2 lb of hamburger and the next day 1/2 lb of kibble. I think most kibble is about 4 cups per lb, and a lb of hamburger is much smaller because it's tight and wet. Anyway, I would like to hear a reason for such better absorption from raw meat.

I'm not arguing either side of this, I'm just staying open minded to all of it.

[slistoe]

I would like to question him on this quote;

"Nutritionally, feeding these raw ingredients decreases their bioavailability while the cooking process increases the bioavailablity of nutrients."

"Bioavailability" refers to how much the body uses ingested nutrients instead of the nutrients passing through unused."

I guess one thing that keeps me wanting to feed raw (at least on a limited basis) is the fact that when I feed raw meat my dogs stools are so small and tight. Now, I'm talking about comparing dry food to wet food so it's a tough comparison but, I've seen it and don't need a veterinarians opinion on it. Try it sometime, feed your dog 1/2 lb of hamburger and the next day 1/2 lb of kibble. I think most kibble is about 4 cups per lb, and a lb of hamburger is much smaller because it's tight and wet. Anyway, I would like to hear a reason for such better absorption from raw meat.

I'm not arguing either side of this, I'm just staying open minded to all of it.

The fact that cooking increases digestibility has been well documented.
If you are feeding regular ground beef and a 30/20 kibble, you would need to give the dog 1 lb of hamburger to get the same protein and fat as you are getting from 1/2 lb of kibble. Compare the stool then. It stands to reason that you would have less stool when feeding 1/2 the amount. Not sure what you will see then. I know when I fed raw feed I always had much looser stool in my dogs.

[Mountaineer]

If one wants to surf the web then they will find information of all manner and degree of truth and spin to support just about any view.....and many experts will have capital letters after their name.
Too many fall in live with the keyboard and all the "Yes, high-five" answers it can appear to provide them.
Often, simply to substitute for experience and to give a feeling of fitting into some group and having a voice at the cool table.

I'm going hunting, my kibblers need to burn off some energy.

[walkos5]

http://www.rgj.com/article/20060409/COL56/604090301/

Sorry birddog 1968, But I can't take the word of a someone who steals money and is accused of having plagiarized his students work. And it seems he is also out of a job.

[walkos5]

I would like to question him on this quote;

"Nutritionally, feeding these raw ingredients decreases their bioavailability while the cooking process increases the bioavailablity of nutrients."

"Bioavailability" refers to how much the body uses ingested nutrients instead of the nutrients passing through unused."

I guess one thing that keeps me wanting to feed raw (at least on a limited basis) is the fact that when I feed raw meat my dogs stools are so small and tight. Now, I'm talking about comparing dry food to wet food so it's a tough comparison but, I've seen it and don't need a veterinarians opinion on it. Try it sometime, feed your dog 1/2 lb of hamburger and the next day 1/2 lb of kibble. I think most kibble is about 4 cups per lb, and a lb of hamburger is much smaller because it's tight and wet. Anyway, I would like to hear a reason for such better absorption from raw meat.

I'm not arguing either side of this, I'm just staying open minded to all of it.

Steve, I just have to say it is a pleasure to read your posts and to have someone who is sincere about getting the truth out of this discussion. I came into this forum looking for answers or something that could lead me to the truth because I just want to do the best I can to care for my dog. And there are many in this forum that are more intent on an argument then getting to the truth, so if I have said anything to upset you then I apologize because any of my negative remarks are meant for the few troublemakers who seem to know what nature does not.

[SCT]

Thanks malkos5, I'm just trying to get the most I can out of this discussion. The reason I started feeding hamburger in the first place a couple years ago is because a friend who has been breeding and field trialing pointers for 40+ years told me "if a dog has diarrhea, give it some hamburger and a little tomato juice". Well, it works, and it works fine without the juice too. Also, it seems to compliment the kibble, where the raw chicken can cause diarrhea if given too much, in my experience. So, I'm careful with the chicken portion sizes.

This is a great discussion guys, but like Mountaineer, I'm off to the field with my dogs.

Steve

[walkos5]

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.

Sounds a little like your vet world is rather shaky. You do know the only difference between white brown eggs is the color of the shell. I would be more inclined to think that your vets do not know as much about nutrition to day as they used to when they actually had to study about all of the animals. But you can call it opening up.. Could you maybe get some of these vets that you converse with ti come on here and tell us what they know about nutrition and put a lot of stories to rest?[/quote]

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?[/quote]

And what would a Natural Dog Diet consist of? Are dogs natural or man made? Can dogs survive without humans?

A wolf is not a Dog. DNA may be close, but Humans are close to Whales to on the DNA level. MOst living things on earth are related, only so many compounds and elements.[/quote]

Angus,
Your first question will always remain a mystery to both raw feeders and the dog food industry because only nature knows that answer. But I think through research we can come close to a natural diet. Dogs are direct decendants of the grey wolf, so yes they are creation of nature. And yes they can survive without humans but domestication by humans tells us that they are more reliant on us to care for them. DNA is more than close it is almost exact or 99% from what I read, and their digestive system has remained the same as it was thousands of years ago.

[walkos5]

No one said nature isn't cruel. But don't try and tell me that the natural diet that nature provides for wild animals is not the best source for nutrition. Deer don't die if they have a full belly of a good variety natural feed unless weather is extreme and they freeze to death. Sure when overpopulation is the issue problems arise but that is usually a man made problem. Over browsing leads to bad forest environment for deer and when they can't find choice foods, deer then eat anything they can find to try and survive. And some die with full bellies of laurels and pine needles.[/quote]
I didn't try to tell you that, I did tell you that. Nutrition in nature is "adapt or die".
Every post you make there is something new you don't understand. Extreme weather is simply a fact of life for life forms like deer. If nature was such a perfect provider then they would be well equipped with the proper feed to deal with it wouldn't they. Overpopulation is simply the way of nature. It is not a man-made problem at all. Boom and Bust is natures motto, not mans.
Supposing nature is the perfect example, which of the canid species are we to model after? Should it be the wolf, the coyote or the fox? Suppose it is the wolf. Do we model after a diet of mice and lemmings with juniper berries, or perhaps a steady diet of elk with a few mule deer thrown in. Some huckleberries and blueberries for good measure. Or maybe we want the wolf that eats from the garbage dumps outside the city. Let's pick the elk and mule deer because there is a certain romance to that one. Now do we use the alpha pair who eat the "byproducts", the mainstream on a meat and hair diet or the lowly end that seem to survive on bones and pickings? Which is the ideal as modelled for us by nature?
Scratch the wolf, I am going with the ranchland coyote - rotted beef. I'll feed him 20 lbs a day for 3 days and then nothing for a week.
Do you feed your dog a regularly timed, measured amount of feed each day? That is not nature's way you know.[/quote]

Preacher,
I didn't ask for a sermon." Usually", means most of the time but not always. Nature can sometimes throw a curveball into the animal world like overpopulation and yes they deal with it or die. But habitat loss, removal of predators, introduction of non native species can also cause overpopulation and they are man made issues. Some animals do indeed die due to extreme weather conditions, even if they have a good food source, that's just the way nature deals it. Coyotes prefer fresh meat but are opportunistic and have a wide variety of food preferences. Anyone would eat rotting beef if they were faced with starvation. I only feed my dog every other day or sometimes every 3 days but give large amounts of meat and bones and other stuff so that he completely fills and stretches his belly to allow those digestive juices to do their thing. How's that?

[birddog1968]

http://www.rgj.com/article/20060409/COL56/604090301/

Sorry birddog 1968, But I can't take the word of a someone who steals money and is accused of having plagiarized his students work. And it seems he is also out of a job.

Its also very easy for some muslims to dismiss facts (holocaust) because it doesn't fit what they want to believe......

One must take in all available info supporting and in opposition to ones views to be able to see clearly. In the end its a personal choice. and there is enough evidence and I have enough experience, feeding dogs that preform, a quality kibble diet is the best way for me and any dog I own.

Here's another read to balance all the hype on the internet for raw...
http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Artic ... 20Meat.pdf

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Talk about sermons Walkos that's all we have heard from you since you started all this BS.You have a one track mind you can't even go on to something more important & learn how to keep your dog from putting up birds instead of pointing them.But you will carry on with all this BS because you can't fathom being full of BS.How many times do you have to be told NO ONE cares what you feed your ONE INVISABLE dog we have fed 100s of dogs over the yrs & know what works for us.
I probably own more dogs right now then you will in your life time not counting the ones I have owned over the past 40 some yrs.

[walkos5]

Talk about sermons Walkos that's all we have heard from you since you started all this BS.You have a one track mind you can't even go on to something more important & learn how to keep your dog from putting up birds instead of pointing them.But you will carry on with all this BS because you can't fathom being full of BS.How many times do you have to be told NO ONE cares what you feed your ONE INVISABLE dog we have fed 100s of dogs over the yrs & know what works for us.
I probably own more dogs right now then you will in your life time not counting the ones I have owned over the past 40 some yrs.

It seems to me that the BS is put on a lot thicker from the kibble supporters. I already said I have no plans of entering my dog in any competitions. He does hold point well, and when the brush is too thick for me to get in to I will send him in to put up a bird, and that works just fine for me. Like many dogs he does bust birds from time to time but he is not yet 3 so what's the big deal. I got a dog to help me get game, and that he does.

[SCT]

This is the article that was commented on in the link Birddog 1968 posted. Haven't read it as I just pulled in from running my dog. Looks pretty comprehensive though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/

[Labs4Me]

1. The romantic myth that the modern gray wolf is the progenitor of the domestic dog is just that. A myth. Wolves continued to evolve alongside dogs and their nutritional adaptations are different from that of the domestic dog. The relationship is similar to ours with the chimpanzee. Think about that for a while.
2. Dogs have genetic differences which results in 5 times the capacity to use alpha amylase to digest carbs and 12 times the ability to turn maltose into glucose compared to wolves* (and evolutionary biologists believe this adaptive change is one of the key drivers in domestication)
3. Seeking confirmation of your views is not "looking for the truth" and such confirmation bias appears to be working against actually learning anything from this discussion.


* http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 11837.html

[shags]

I'll save you the trouble of reading the entire thing. There are facts in there you probably don't want to know. The last paragraph sums it up

"Clearly, there is some compelling evidence suggesting that raw food diets may be a theoretical risk nutritionally. In addition, raw food poses a substantial risk of infectious disease to the pet, the pet’s environment, and the humans in the household. What is lacking, however, is level 1 evidence from randomized controlled trials or strong level 2 evidence from large cohort studies to evaluate risks or benefits of raw meat diets in pets. There is, though, sufficient evidence available that veterinarians should feel obligated to discuss the human health implications of a client’s decision to use a raw meat-based food for their pet. CVJ"

[slistoe]

Preacher,
I didn't ask for a sermon." Usually", means most of the time but not always. Nature can sometimes throw a curveball into the animal world like overpopulation and yes they deal with it or die. But habitat loss, removal of predators, introduction of non native species can also cause overpopulation and they are man made issues. Some animals do indeed die due to extreme weather conditions, even if they have a good food source, that's just the way nature deals it. Coyotes prefer fresh meat but are opportunistic and have a wide variety of food preferences. Anyone would eat rotting beef if they were faced with starvation. I only feed my dog every other day or sometimes every 3 days but give large amounts of meat and bones and other stuff so that he completely fills and stretches his belly to allow those digestive juices to do their thing. How's that?

You really are wrapped up in the fairy tale version of nature aren't you. Overpopulation is very rarely a man made problem. Overpopulation with the resulting population crash is almost always the way it is in nature. Populations that are unable to recover from a crash are usually because of a man made problem.
How do you know coyotes prefer fresh meat? Did you ask them? All I know about it is that when one of my steers die the coyotes will rarely visit the carcass that night. Usually it is 2 to 3 days later when they hit it with a vengeance - and then it will be gone in 2 nights.

[SCT]

I'll save you the trouble of reading the entire thing. There are facts in there you probably don't want to know. The last paragraph sums it up

"Clearly, there is some compelling evidence suggesting that raw food diets may be a theoretical risk nutritionally. In addition, raw food poses a substantial risk of infectious disease to the pet, the pet’s environment, and the humans in the household. What is lacking, however, is level 1 evidence from randomized controlled trials or strong level 2 evidence from large cohort studies to evaluate risks or benefits of raw meat diets in pets. There is, though, sufficient evidence available that veterinarians should feel obligated to discuss the human health implications of a client’s decision to use a raw meat-based food for their pet. CVJ"

Trust me shags, I want to know. I will keep doing my limited raw feeding on top of the main stay kibble. Like I said my dogs do very well on the kibble, I'm not going to change that program from what I've seen. Long term, it's just to risky IMO, to change to a total raw diet. Just can't find enough definitive collaboration. I think we all love our dogs and want the best for them, I will stay with what works for me.

Steve

[Angus]

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!

I'm going to need some sources and numbers on that.

Sounds a little like your vet world is rather shaky. You do know the only difference between white brown eggs is the color of the shell. I would be more inclined to think that your vets do not know as much about nutrition to day as they used to when they actually had to study about all of the animals. But you can call it opening up.. Could you maybe get some of these vets that you converse with ti come on here and tell us what they know about nutrition and put a lot of stories to rest?

If there is a perfect balanced diet for dogs and the commercial dog food industry has it, wouldn't you think it would mimic that of a dogs diet that nature would provide?[/quote]

And what would a Natural Dog Diet consist of? Are dogs natural or man made? Can dogs survive without humans?

A wolf is not a Dog. DNA may be close, but Humans are close to Whales to on the DNA level. MOst living things on earth are related, only so many compounds and elements.[/quote]

Angus,
Your first question will always remain a mystery to both raw feeders and the dog food industry because only nature knows that answer. But I think through research we can come close to a natural diet. Dogs are direct decendants of the grey wolf, so yes they are creation of nature. And yes they can survive without humans but domestication by humans tells us that they are more reliant on us to care for them. DNA is more than close it is almost exact or 99% from what I read, and their digestive system has remained the same as it was thousands of years ago.[/quote]

I think you have your "facts" wrong here. Anyhow, it is obvious that you only want to parrot what you read elsewhere and provide no sources, sites, or evidence, to back up your claims.

There is a big difference in accepting dogs are descended from wolves, and claiming that Dogs are essentially Wolves.

I'll just leave this here and bow out of this thread.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/raw ... -you-barf/

[shags]

You'll be grossed out by the pathogens you most likely will be bringing into your/your family's environment. Salmonella? Yummy! E.Coli? Have another helping! And for anyone with children in the house...

There isn't anything in the article that positively identifies any nutritional benefit to feeding raw; but it cites some serious deficiencies or excesses in various components.

Pay attention to the first page or two of this report. It explains the types of research studies. Then as you research, you have an idea of validity of various claims. Interesting to note that some proponents of raw as per their postings here wouldn't even make the lowest end of the information scale.

I'd still be interested to know what kind of parasites feeders of raw game animals are exposing their dogs to. Liver flukes and trichinosis are a couple of possibilities.

[SCT]

Yeah, the parasites are scary too

[Angus]

You'll be grossed out by the pathogens you most likely will be bringing into your/your family's environment. Salmonella? Yummy! E.Coli? Have another helping! And for anyone with children in the house...

There isn't anything in the article that positively identifies any nutritional benefit to feeding raw; but it cites some serious deficiencies or excesses in various components.

Pay attention to the first page or two of this report. It explains the types of research studies. Then as you research, you have an idea of validity of various claims. Interesting to note that some proponents of raw as per their postings here wouldn't even make the lowest end of the information scale.

I'd still be interested to know what kind of parasites feeders of raw game animals are exposing their dogs to. Liver flukes and trichinosis are a couple of possibilities.

Is your post in reference to the link I just posted?

[shags]

No, it's about Steve's

Edited to add...

Your article corroborates many of the points in the previous one. Good reading

[walkos5]

Preacher,
I didn't ask for a sermon." Usually", means most of the time but not always. Nature can sometimes throw a curveball into the animal world like overpopulation and yes they deal with it or die. But habitat loss, removal of predators, introduction of non native species can also cause overpopulation and they are man made issues. Some animals do indeed die due to extreme weather conditions, even if they have a good food source, that's just the way nature deals it. Coyotes prefer fresh meat but are opportunistic and have a wide variety of food preferences. Anyone would eat rotting beef if they were faced with starvation. I only feed my dog every other day or sometimes every 3 days but give large amounts of meat and bones and other stuff so that he completely fills and stretches his belly to allow those digestive juices to do their thing. How's that?

You really are wrapped up in the fairy tale version of nature aren't you. Overpopulation is very rarely a man made problem. Overpopulation with the resulting population crash is almost always the way it is in nature. Populations that are unable to recover from a crash are usually because of a man made problem.
How do you know coyotes prefer fresh meat? Did you ask them? All I know about it is that when one of my steers die the coyotes will rarely visit the carcass that night. Usually it is 2 to 3 days later when they hit it with a vengeance - and then it will be gone in 2 nights.

The Oklohoma Department of Wildlife & Conservation states the fact that coyotes prefer fresh meat from a kill but are opportunistic predators. Here in PA where I live we have a good population of whitetail deer and every interstate shows it. I have never seen a coyote feeding on a road kill deer, not saying they don't do it just never saw it and I travel the interstates 3 nights per week.

[walkos5]

You'll be grossed out by the pathogens you most likely will be bringing into your/your family's environment. Salmonella? Yummy! E.Coli? Have another helping! And for anyone with children in the house...

There isn't anything in the article that positively identifies any nutritional benefit to feeding raw; but it cites some serious deficiencies or excesses in various components.

Pay attention to the first page or two of this report. It explains the types of research studies. Then as you research, you have an idea of validity of various claims. Interesting to note that some proponents of raw as per their postings here wouldn't even make the lowest end of the information scale.

I'd still be interested to know what kind of parasites feeders of raw game animals are exposing their dogs to. Liver flukes and trichinosis are a couple of possibilities.

Shags,
Your right, I'm never going to butcher up another deer or any game for that matter. I never realized so many pathogens and parasites existed. It's a wonder my family is still alive with all of the meat I process and use every year. Good thing I read this post.

[Mountaineer]

...The Oklohoma Department of Wildlife & Conservation states the fact that coyotes prefer fresh meat from a kill but are opportunistic predators. Here in PA where I live we have a good population of whitetail deer and every interstate shows it. I have never seen a coyote feeding on a road kill deer, not saying they don't do it just never saw it and I travel the interstates 3 nights per week.

Traveling the superslabs in Pa, Oh and WVa since the late 60s thru all hours, I also have never seen a coyote feeding on a roadkill...nor would I expect to.
Too much other food out and about and...they are sly critters.
'Course, Pa. has recently and wisely reduced their deer numbers...even so, I saw 8-9 made good on the roadside today.
Plus, lived on this place for over 30 years and never saw a bobcat till one of the deerhunters got one this week on a trail cam....your conclusion re coyote sightings on roadkill is a bad one.
I know your birdy on this W but I would rein in the silly stuff just a bit.

Found a birddog photo yet?

[birddogger]

Talk about sermons Walkos that's all we have heard from you since you started all this BS.You have a one track mind you can't even go on to something more important & learn how to keep your dog from putting up birds instead of pointing them.But you will carry on with all this BS because you can't fathom being full of BS.How many times do you have to be told NO ONE cares what you feed your ONE INVISABLE dog we have fed 100s of dogs over the yrs & know what works for us.
I probably own more dogs right now then you will in your life time not counting the ones I have owned over the past 40 some yrs.

Good post!! Walkos is the only one doing the preaching and accusing the rest of us being argumentive :roll: . And he still refuses to accept the evedince, which is the thousands of dogs that thrive and have thrived for many years on commercial dog food. I know there are others who feed a raw diet that works for them and their dogs but not too many come on here preaching that 99 percent of dog owners are feeding a harmful diet.

Charlie

[birddogger]

Your right, I'm never going to butcher up another deer or any game for that matter. I never realized so many pathogens and parasites existed. It's a wonder my family is still alive with all of the meat I process and use every year. Good thing I read this post.

I am glad to hear that you and your family have had no ill effects from eating raw meat all these years. That is what we are talking about isn't it?

Charlie

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Charlie I was thinking the same thing but that's something I have no experience with so left it alone!

[Sharon]

Be careful if you give 'em peanut butter, don't glop on too much as it tends to glue their tongues to the roof of their mouths and their lips to their teeth

That's the best thing about giving them peanut butter!

LOL Thanks for the bedtime laugh.