Training collars

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:50 pm

From the land of the non-e collar to (some) of those in the land of the collar.
Y'all perhaps'? want to understand the dog before the collar is used?...If One thinks the collar will 'run the dog down' for you without the conditioning and early training before ,then perhaps It is being used for a different plain?...

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:58 pm

I think the biggest thing polmaise is the differing ways the different types of folks use an e-collar. HPR and pointing dog people have a very different method of using an e-collar then people with retrievers (and spaniels). I try to think of how the dog is perceiving the situation. If the collar is being used to "run down the dog" I would think that could be quite confusing for the dog, if it had never been ran down the old fashioned way in the first place. I wouldn't use an e-collar to enforce anything the dog hasn't been taught by more.... traditional means first. I don't think an e-collar lets you skip any steps - it is just the opposite - using an e-collar is an additional step that builds on what has already been taught.... more of a polishing/finesse tool.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:22 pm

No one has mentioned the collar to "run down a dog" The collar is used to make corrections at a distance immediately on an untethered animal. In my case always after a long process of behavioral shaping and overlaying the collar on cues taught at the end of a lead. The" running down" talk comes into play as the means of making a correction without or pre collar. Any speculation that it is a short cut is simply ignorance or a ploy in an alternate agenda.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:35 pm

Chukar12 wrote:No one has mentioned the collar to "run down a dog" The collar is used to make corrections at a distance immediately on an untethered animal. In my case always after a long process of behavioral shaping and overlaying the collar on cues taught at the end of a lead. The" running down" talk comes into play as the means of making a correction without or pre collar. Any speculation that it is a short cut is simply ignorance or a ploy in an alternate agenda.

Elkhunter wrote:I cannot imagine "running" down my dog to correct behavior....

I would never catch him.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:40 pm

Polmaise I would like to learn more. If that is you in video, it is great!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:13 pm

Polmaise I believe he is saying he couldn't imagine catching the dog if that was his option. In days of old they had to saddle up and ride hard to catch a dog like Elks and they had a tendency to make the correction worth their effort. Softer dogs had little chance their odds are much better today

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:43 pm

MJB64 wrote:Evan, you just made my point. There is no level where it changes. At level 1 my dog is getting a shock, and yes I have tried it on myself.

Mike

Let me ask you at what speed does a load of buckshot have to be moving to cause a shock to you? Bet I can open a shell with buckshot and dump it on you and you wouldn't think you had been shot or that it was a shock to your system. Let me fire it out of a gun and you might have a completely difference sensation and a different reaction.

Just don't see where your point makes much sense since we all know there are different levels that produce completely different sensations of most things in this world.

Ezzy

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:44 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Polmaise I believe he is saying he couldn't imagine catching the dog if that was his option. In days of old they had to saddle up and ride hard to catch a dog like Elks and they had a tendency to make the correction worth their effort. Softer dogs had little chance their odds are much better today

Maybe so, but I'll bet neither type of dog understood why it was being corrected.

Nate

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:51 pm

by CDN_Cocker » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:58 pm

I think the biggest thing polmaise is the differing ways the different types of folks use an e-collar. HPR and pointing dog people have a very different method of using an e-collar then people with retrievers (and spaniels). I try to think of how the dog is perceiving the situation. If the collar is being used to "run down the dog" I would think that could be quite confusing for the dog, if it had never been ran down the old fashioned way in the first place. I wouldn't use an e-collar to enforce anything the dog hasn't been taught by more.... traditional means first. I don't think an e-collar lets you skip any steps - it is just the opposite - using an e-collar is an additional step that builds on what has already been taught.... more of a polishing/finesse tool." quote
................
Yeh but aren't you 23 years old? I saw your picture.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:58 pm

They understood after enough reps and if they were tough enough to take it. I will be speaking in code to some but you will understand based on your education...the dog was notified at the transgression then came a correction...the notification generally a loud you SOB. Often times dogs get pulled out of the field and worked again at arms length. My finished dogs get worked without a collar...they know when they are wrong....the key is to know when the dog knows it

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:23 pm

Sharon wrote:by CDN_Cocker » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:58 pm

I think the biggest thing polmaise is the differing ways the different types of folks use an e-collar. HPR and pointing dog people have a very different method of using an e-collar then people with retrievers (and spaniels). I try to think of how the dog is perceiving the situation. If the collar is being used to "run down the dog" I would think that could be quite confusing for the dog, if it had never been ran down the old fashioned way in the first place. I wouldn't use an e-collar to enforce anything the dog hasn't been taught by more.... traditional means first. I don't think an e-collar lets you skip any steps - it is just the opposite - using an e-collar is an additional step that builds on what has already been taught.... more of a polishing/finesse tool." quote
................
Yeh but aren't you 23 years old? I saw your picture.

LOL I'm a bit older than that

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:23 pm

polmaise wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:No one has mentioned the collar to "run down a dog" The collar is used to make corrections at a distance immediately on an untethered animal. In my case always after a long process of behavioral shaping and overlaying the collar on cues taught at the end of a lead. The" running down" talk comes into play as the means of making a correction without or pre collar. Any speculation that it is a short cut is simply ignorance or a ploy in an alternate agenda.

Elkhunter wrote:I cannot imagine "running" down my dog to correct behavior....

I would never catch him.

Thanks Robt!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:31 pm

polmaise wrote:From the land of the non-e collar to (some) of those in the land of the collar.
Y'all perhaps'? want to understand the dog before the collar is used?...If One thinks the collar will 'run the dog down' for you without the conditioning and early training before ,then perhaps It is being used for a different plain?...

polmaise, this would be very improper use of the e collar. I am aware that there are people out there who do use the collar improperly, by not conditioning,teaching/training first, etc. but I think I would be correct in saying that those same people will abuse or use any other training tool or method improperly also.

Charlie

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:34 pm

birddogger wrote: polmaise, this would be very improper use of the e collar. I am aware that there are people out there who do use the collar improperly, by not conditioning,teaching/training first, etc. but I think I would be correct in saying that those same people will abuse or use any other training tool or method improperly also.

Charlie

Well said Charlie

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:56 pm

Crackerd not sure of your meaning. Am i giving a linguistics lesson? Wasn't claiming Ezzy to be right or wrong. I am very comfortable in the 1% as i have stated before.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:02 pm

It amazes me how many people know so little about e collars and their use.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:04 pm

polmaise wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:No one has mentioned the collar to "run down a dog" The collar is used to make corrections at a distance immediately on an untethered animal. In my case always after a long process of behavioral shaping and overlaying the collar on cues taught at the end of a lead. The" running down" talk comes into play as the means of making a correction without or pre collar. Any speculation that it is a short cut is simply ignorance or a ploy in an alternate agenda.

Elkhunter wrote:I cannot imagine "running" down my dog to correct behavior....

I would never catch him.

You are confusing yourself, I would never be able to "run down my dog" to make a correction when he is 500+ yards away. I use the e collar to correct negative behavior at a distance. Its really very simple, I dont understand your confusion.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:23 am

Frankug wrote:Crackerd not sure of your meaning. Am i giving a linguistics lesson? Wasn't claiming Ezzy to be right or wrong. I am very comfortable in the 1% as i have stated before.

Crackerd, Don't worry about the remarks as he has a chip on his shoulder and is more concerned about what I say than he is about learning or helping teach. Makes him feel better I guess, since there really isn't any other reason for it. Just too bad since I think he is someone that really could be a productive member of our board.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:04 am

What happens to the dog at 400-500 yds. Proper use of a Collar. From a Bird Dog Person or Birddogger himself. ???

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:19 am

Frankug wrote:What happens to the dog at 400-500 yds. Proper use of a Collar. From a Bird Dog Person or Birddogger himself. ???

It is me himself and the answer is nothing more than a tug on a CC would do but you don't have the ability or desire to understand that.

Charlie

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:39 am

It looks like another thread has broken down to personal attacks. All of this because "The Big Four" puckered up when Muleskinner used the term "shock collar".
Mike

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:54 am

MJB64 wrote:It looks like another thread has broken down to personal attacks. All of this because "The Big Four" puckered up when Muleskinner used the term "shock collar".
Mike

The attacks started before muleskinner said anything.

Charlie

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:39 am

Could I get Ezzy to delete my profile or have a kind person tell me how to do it. I am going to get on out of hearing and leave you good people alone. Not my intent to offend sorry if I did. Thanks for responding Birddogger.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:57 am

Frankug wrote:Could I get Ezzy to delete my profile or have a kind person tell me how to do it. I am going to get on out of hearing and leave you good people alone. Not my intent to offend sorry if I did. Thanks for responding Birddogger.

Really isn't that hard to stop typing the address in the browser, no need to be dramatic about it.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:12 am

Chukar12 wrote:They understood after enough reps and if they were tough enough to take it. I will be speaking in code to some but you will understand based on your education...the dog was notified at the transgression then came a correction...the notification generally a loud you SOB. Often times dogs get pulled out of the field and worked again at arms length. My finished dogs get worked without a collar...they know when they are wrong....the key is to know when the dog knows it

I understand and concur.

Nate

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:58 am

Chukar12 wrote:They understood after enough reps and if they were tough enough to take it.

Just to clarify, is this your understanding of collar conditioning? "They understood after enough reps and if they were tough enough to take it", of is this your understanding of e-collar use in general?

EvanG

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:22 am

Elkhunter wrote:It amazes me how many people know so little about e collars and their use.

Is there a sticky somewhere on this site to address some of these misconceptions? Ezzy had mentioned physical therapy. I've also been through several knee rehabs, etc., and agree that speaking as to my Dogtra at, say, a 20, it is on my wrist or neck no different than an e-stim buzz that I've gotten after an operation.

I don't want to jump on usage of "shock collar" on here, but I am aware that even some of my family thinks the e-collar is somewhat cruel for my dog, or represents a failure in training. I can give my dog a neck or throat injury with inappropriate use of a check cord...the list goes on.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:42 am

Nutmeg247 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:It amazes me how many people know so little about e collars and their use.
Is there a sticky somewhere on this site to address some of these misconceptions? Ezzy had mentioned physical therapy. I've also been through several knee rehabs, etc., and agree that speaking as to my Dogtra at, say, a 20, it is on my wrist or neck no different than an e-stim buzz that I've gotten after an operation.

I don't want to jump on usage of "shock collar" on here, but I am aware that even some of my family thinks the e-collar is somewhat cruel for my dog, or represents a failure in training. I can give my dog a neck or throat injury with inappropriate use of a check cord...the list goes on.

Don't give up. The best and only real way to dispel ignorance about e-collars is sound education and truthful information.

EvanG

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:49 am

No Evan, this is a long confusing thread. I was referencing pre collar corrections...the old days...hands on corrections AFTER you actually caught the dog.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:56 am

Chukar12 wrote:No Evan, this is a long confusing thread. I was referencing pre collar corrections...the old days...hands on corrections AFTER you actually caught the dog.

Thanks. I almost hate to say I remember the days. But they gave us what we now have, and for that I'm grateful.

EvanG

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:40 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:Polmaise I believe he is saying he couldn't imagine catching the dog if that was his option. In days of old they had to saddle up and ride hard to catch a dog like Elks and they had a tendency to make the correction worth their effort. Softer dogs had little chance their odds are much better today
Maybe so, but I'll bet neither type of dog understood why it was being corrected.

Nate

And I'll bet you would be wrong. I have run down scores of dogs, of the pointy variety, at all types of yardages (including elks 4-500 yards) and they understood quite well what they had done wrong - because they knew quite well what they had done wrong when they did it.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:56 pm

slistoe wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:Polmaise I believe he is saying he couldn't imagine catching the dog if that was his option. In days of old they had to saddle up and ride hard to catch a dog like Elks and they had a tendency to make the correction worth their effort. Softer dogs had little chance their odds are much better today
Maybe so, but I'll bet neither type of dog understood why it was being corrected.

Nate
And I'll bet you would be wrong. I have run down scores of dogs, of the pointy variety, at all types of yardages (including elks 4-500 yards) and they understood quite well what they had done wrong - because they knew quite well what they had done wrong when they did it.

I believe it would depend on the situation. If the dog was not notified for the undesired behavior at the time of the infraction, it would likely not understand why it was being corrected after a period of time had elapsed. The dog could easily think it was being corrected for the act of being chased and caught. This logic gives an argument in favor of e-collars. Correction can be given immediately, and alleviate confusion of the dog with the use of electronics.

Nate

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:09 pm

Chukar12 wrote:No Evan, this is a long confusing thread. I was referencing pre collar corrections...the old days...hands on corrections AFTER you actually caught the dog.

Must be confusing for some I agree!..
If you have to catch the dog then it's probably too late.How one corrects the dog at that point is where the old days got it wrong/ or / right in various degrees.
If the 'Sequential training ---'Pre-collar' , or those that used No-collar' was followed then there would be corrections/ but also rewards.

That should make some think?

..Or not.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:24 pm

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:
slistoe wrote:
DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote: Maybe so, but I'll bet neither type of dog understood why it was being corrected.

Nate
And I'll bet you would be wrong. I have run down scores of dogs, of the pointy variety, at all types of yardages (including elks 4-500 yards) and they understood quite well what they had done wrong - because they knew quite well what they had done wrong when they did it.
I believe it would depend on the situation. If the dog was not notified for the undesired behavior at the time of the infraction, it would likely not understand why it was being corrected after a period of time had elapsed. The dog could easily think it was being corrected for the act of being chased and caught. This logic gives an argument in favor of e-collars. Correction can be given immediately, and alleviate confusion of the dog with the use of electronics.

Nate

Not saying that e-collars are less effective, but simply pointing out that your blanket assertion that a dog run down would not understand why it was being corrected is absolutely false. A dog stimulated with an e-collar can just as equally understand why or be absolutely confused by the application of the stimulus. Depends on the trainer to properly evaluate the situation and take the appropriate action. Every dog I ever ran down understood very well what it did wrong and why it was being corrected. I have never developed a dog that thought the correction was for getting caught.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:30 pm

My experience has been the same as slistoe's on this one.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:51 pm

I think when you walk into the house, find the wastebasket tipped over and the contents spread around and the dog looking very sheepish when you walk into the living room pretty well proves a dog has more memory of mistakes made than most try to tell us they have.

JMO

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Frankug wrote:Could I get Ezzy to delete my profile or have a kind person tell me how to do it. I am going to get on out of hearing and leave you good people alone. Not my intent to offend sorry if I did. Thanks for responding Birddogger.

Frankug, I wish you would reconsider but when words like lazy, insecure and electrocution are used, it is bound to draw a negative response. Sometimes things get a little heated but then we move on. Good luck with your dogs.

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:03 am

MJB64 wrote:It looks like another thread has broken down to personal attacks. All of this because "The Big Four" puckered up when Muleskinner used the term "shock collar".
Mike

I didn't know I was one of the "big four"? I'm honored.

muleskinner · Post by **muleskinner** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:09 pm

What a fire a little spark can kindle! I have the advantage of remembering what it was like trying to break hounds from running deer without a training/e-/shock collar. I tried all of the methods known to man with a black&tan coon hound. Nothing worked. I ended up having to keep him on a leash until we struck a fresh track...once on a coon track he would ignore deer. Unbelievable amount of nights and days spent running that dog down or retrieving him from somewhere in the next county. I promise you I would have fired him up if I had a training collar. That may not set too well with some....oh well. On the other hand, my first GSP was a dream too hunt with...never needed anything other than verbal commands. Wouldn't have needed a training collar if I had one. I am hoping that my GSP pup turns out to be that way. However, call em what you like, training/e/shock collars are marvelous inventions in my un-learned opinion! Peace be unto all and may your collars never go dead!