Why is whoa not important

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:58 pm

There you go folks. thread just for you! I promise not to make another post here! Unless of course none of you can come up with a reason it's not!

h&t · Post by **h&t** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:50 pm

I haven't read the other thread, but whoa is not essential, it's certainly not needed to make the dog point or hold point and as a matter of control it can be replaced by any other command - sit, down, halt, whatever.

What's his name of that dog trainer..?

said about a dog trial - you'd think every dog's name there, was whoa!

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:21 pm

If you want a command that carries along way it has to end in a long vowel sound : whoooooooooooooooooa, stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, If it ends in a swallowed consonant like Halt etc. it isn't going to carry far.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:13 am

Sharon wrote:If you want a command that carries along way it has to end in a long vowel sound : whoooooooooooooooooa, stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, If it ends in a swallowed consonant like Halt etc. it isn't going to carry far.

So Sharon, when using all my four letter words training the dog's, I'm OK as long as I drag them out? That'll piss off my wife.

Nice post Sharon, actually I'd never thought about that in all these years.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:59 am

I never train the whoa command, haven't found any need to . Never even thought about training it. I do use the word "wait" in a very soft, quiet, calm and long drawn out manner but only for as long as it takes for a pup to hold point ....usually a couple of months at most. Not sure if that is exactly the same thing as a Whoa command but even with that word it isn't usually a thing I teach in a yard or with any check cord attached to the pup . I just let the wild birds my pups hunt do the training for me.

I'm not sure about this but perhaps if I competed in U.S. pointing dog trials I would have to train "Whoa ?" My dogs are expected to follow up very cautiously with no commands from me if a bird runs from the point and then point again when the bird stops moving. I think if a dog did that in a U.S. trial it might be eliminated ???

So ....is the Whoa command the same thing as me blowing the Stop whistle ?

Bill T.

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:51 am

Trekmoor wrote:I never train the whoa command, haven't found any need to . Never even thought about training it. I do use the word "wait" in a very soft, quiet, calm and long drawn out manner but only for as long as it takes for a pup to hold point ....usually a couple of months at most. Not sure if that is exactly the same thing as a Whoa command but even with that word it isn't usually a thing I teach in a yard or with any check cord attached to the pup . I just let the wild birds my pups hunt do the training for me.

I'm not sure about this but perhaps if I competed in U.S. pointing dog trials I would have to train "Whoa ?" My dogs are expected to follow up very cautiously with no commands from me if a bird runs from the point and then point again when the bird stops moving. I think if a dog did that in a U.S. trial it might be eliminated ???

So ....is the Whoa command the same thing as me blowing the Stop whistle ?

Bill T.

I agree with you about not teaching whoa and letting the birds teach whoa or the concept of whoa. I've heard a lot of people claiming to be dog trainers in the field hunting/training YELLING WHOOOOOAAAA to even get their dog to stop to point or just stop and the dog just keeps running!

In the US from my experience, it depends what venue you're in but if your dog moves a muscle until that bird is shot and hits the ground, forget about it. You might as well just pack up and go home. In field trials, they don't even shoot the bird from what I've heard and been told. I think in NSTRA you can get away with a little movement but it has been a while since I played that game.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:08 am

In my earlier NAVHDA days (40+ years ago!!), I put dogs on tables and birds in front of them and kept repeating whoa...thank you Don Smith. Don't do it anymore. I now teach stop to flush (thrown object), stop to shot, combine them and then condition the dog that if it stays in place, I will go and bring the bird to the dog..dog carries bird to truck (FF)...young dogs are intermittently allowed to run for the retrieve...keep them off center.....all done with check cord. All this starts with a 10 week old pup in a slow conditioning process.

There is nothing wrong with "WHOA"...its just a word...you can use "aardwark"...its the conditioning to the situation that counts. I guess over the years I have come to the conclusion that what I say is less important than the situations/exposure/stimuli to which I condition the dog. Teach a dog what it has to do to get what it wants...then repeat. All my pups know a limited vocabulary by the time they are 6 months old.

I have always chuckled when a handler will take his dog to the field and say "Hunt 'em up!!"....then go to the track, tap the ground and say "Track!!"...then go to the water and say "Fetch!". I just say "Find it!!"...by the time I get to that point in a dog's training (FF has been done), if the grass in the fields, the tap on the ground and the smell of swamp doesn't communicate clearly to the dog what we are doing, then I have a bag of rocks on the end of the lead.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:56 pm

Well no reason's not to use it so far. But several comment's on why they don't use it. BTW, any command to get a dog to stop and still is a whoa command, just using a different word!

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:15 pm

Hmmm?.

Why is anything 'Not' important?..
I don't buy the 'Whooooooaaaagh' elongated bit no more than I buy the 'Siiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt' ! .Sorry Sharon . It doesn't mean I dis-regard the comment,just don't sit with me

..
I rather like the 'Nothing command' !..ie ..say nothing because it means not a jot ! and any intervention with a contact of scent (If we are talking about pointing breeds?) is only adding something to the mix!
Just my personal opinion

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:20 pm

So ....is the Whoa command the same thing as me blowing the Stop whistle ?

Bill T.

Yes

Charlie

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:16 pm

Is the contact with game or scent of game the same as 'whoa' or stop whistle ?
Many on here have repeatedly said that the 'bird' trains the 'Bird dog' ?...So why a command?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:31 pm

polmaise wrote:Is the contact with game or scent of game the same as 'whoa' or stop whistle ?
Many on here have repeatedly said that the 'bird' trains the 'Bird dog' ?...So why a command?

The Whoa command has little to do with birds though you can use around them if you like. I think of Whoa as nothing more than a command to stop moving such as approaching a road. Approaching a pond with thin ice when you dropped a bird on it, stop when you are coming from across a road with a bird in is mouth, wanting to chase a dear or meeting a strange dog or another hunter. These are all times you might want to stop you dog put not wanting it to come to you. Not a command you have to teach but a wonderful tool when needed.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:43 pm

Does the 'stop whistle' not do this?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:57 pm

polmaise wrote:Does the 'stop whistle' not do this?

If you have trained stop to a whistle that is exactly what we are talking about. What word you use or any other sound is immaterial. Whoa is a common term used in this country for years with horses as well as dogs and kids. What word or tool you use makes no difference. You have taught whoa, stop, desist, or any other word that the dog knows don't move and you are one of us.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:03 pm

That is what I was wondering , why yell out "Who-o-o-o-ah !" when one pip on a whistle does the same job ? Is it just customary ?
The retriever and the spaniel folk seem to stop dogs just fine with a whistle so why not the pointer folk too ?
Bill T.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:23 pm

So there is actually no requirement for a 'whoa' barrel or even a 'Whoooooooaaahhh' barrel!..just a a stop by any means

The whoa' would be descendant from John Wayne ,much like our 'Hi-loss' is generic with a hunt command

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:47 pm

Bill, my only answer to you is I would rather talk than find my whistle and blow it if I am in a hurry and that is about all I use it for unless the dog takes a step while I am flushing the bird and in that case a will quietly tell the dog whoa. And for you Polmaise, whoa was around long before John Wayne. Our draft horse operated on Giddup and Whoa for many years when we were in the field picking up bundles of oats or other grain. When we hand picked corn there was never anyone in the wagon to drive the horses, they pretty much worked on voice commands and I think that has carried over into our dogs.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:59 pm

ezzy333 wrote: And for you Polmaise, whoa was around long before John Wayne. Our draft horse operated on Giddup and Whoa for many years when we were in the field picking up bundles of oats or other grain. When we hand picked corn there was never anyone in the wagon to drive the horses, they pretty much worked on voice commands and I think that has carried over into our dogs.

Ezzy

For sure!..Like many of the generic references this side

Modernly though (and I'm a mere 55 years young) ..I say nothing

..but that's just me personally !

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:51 pm

Last summer at a NAVHDA test one of the dogs received a 2 in heel. To the untrained eye the dog did a great job. The handler told it to heel and the dog heeled. The handler said nothing after the first command so why the lower score. Well the handler said nothing, but did dance through the test and according to the judges doing the Cha Cha was a command even though no words were spoken. Whoa is a command whether it comes by voice, whistle, hand or any other method. I prefer voice as it's easy to get to and I always have it with me. I use the word, but sparingly. I don't care for a lot of hacking when I'm out with the dogs be it voice or whistle. Quiet is golden. I have this theory that the more you talk the less the dog listens. Same goes for children and spouses.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:21 pm

It is amazing that a simple obedience command can cause so much confusion, dissension, and discussion. It's a simple obedience command, same as sit for a retriever.

On a retriever board, you would never see a discussion as to why SIT was important.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:29 pm

Someone must be able to tell us why whoa is not important!

Hey Bill, what does one pip on the whistle mean?

Polmaise, what does the stop whistle mean?

h&t · Post by **h&t** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:45 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:It is amazing that a simple obedience command can cause so much confusion, dissension, and discussion. It's a simple obedience command, same as sit for a retriever.

ah, but its (ab)use is inseparable from its initial function (stop).

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Bill, my only answer to you is I would rather talk than find my whistle and blow it if I am in a hurry and that is about all I use it for unless the dog takes a step while I am flushing the bird and in that case a will quietly tell the dog whoa. And for you Polmaise, whoa was around long before John Wayne. Our draft horse operated on Giddup and Whoa for many years when we were in the field picking up bundles of oats or other grain. When we hand picked corn there was never anyone in the wagon to drive the horses, they pretty much worked on voice commands and I think that has carried over into our dogs.

Ezzy

My whistle is always wedged between my teeth. No fumbling and bumbling. It's quick, quiet, and sounds nothing like a human voice, which is great when the roosters are wiley and spooky.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:30 pm

Springer, I can't remember ever whoa-ing a dog in rooster territory as it is used only as an emergency stop except when the dog is right beside me during a flush but my whistle is on a strap around my neck and usually nestle comfortably in a breast pocket. There is only one thing more irritating in the field than a persons voice and that is a whistle.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:37 pm

Ezzy, you need to hang around Spaniel folks more often. It'll help you loosen up! You'll also learn the art of whistling up your pup!

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:13 am

Hey Don-
Thanks for this thread!
Know what I just find absolutely incredible (?)
(And know you vowed not to respond to posts so it's all good!)
That a fella' submits that in 40 yrs of Pointin'Dawgs that they were ALL apparently born into this world staunch, ...steady to flush, steady to shot, .. steady to fall, and ALL of this without any kind of training for them NOT to break and bust up some birds!
Birds trained 'em to do this!

It's amazing/incredible!! I want to know the breeding!!
Sheesh-
What in the world were ALL the "old timers" thinking when they ALL came up with the silly, (over-used, command----> "Whoa" back in the 60's &70's(?)

That 's like "SIT" being waaay over rated , I mean geeze- everyone over uses it

So-
There's your reason to post now..because the reason why whoa isn't important is because dogs magically don-t break

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:22 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Ezzy, you need to hang around Spaniel folks more often. It'll help you loosen up! You'll also learn the art of whistling up your pup!

I learned all of those arts back before you were hatched I would guess. Used to have Spaniels but then they dropped the name and just made them Brittanys. Seriously I have bever trained or hunted with a Springer or a Cocker but they both make great pheasant dogs when you get them trained.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:43 am

the whoa crowd keep claiming it is the most important command

Why have a pointing breed if you have to keep them in site all the time . That's what flushing dogs are for. Especially keeping them in close enough that the command will stop him. Dogs adrenalin is so high during hunting that it takes more power to get them to obey. So to top it off why have a pointer in site all the time and also within 50 yards all the time when using voice command

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:36 am

Have you even read these many posts and understood what we are saying?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:38 am

Hi Don, I'm enjoying and learning from this thread you started because although I often read on here and elsewhere about training for "Whoa" I assumed it was only used when dogs began to creep on point.
I think you are already well aware of the answer to the question you posed to me and Polmaise about what one pip on a whistle means and what the stop whistle means.

One pip means Stop ! Obviously we could yell out " Sit !" and get the same result but in Britain we have the theory that the human voice scares game so we substitute a whistle at any distance.

If I have read all of this correctly then the "Whoa" command does not mean "sit" it means "Stop/stand." Our one pip might mean the dog sat on point which wouldn't get you good marks in a pointing trial over on your side of the pond !

Our dogs ,whether or not they are trialed, have different responses to a pip on the whistle (apart from totally ignoring it

) Some dogs sit and some dogs stand often depending on what sort of cover they are in or upon the underfoot conditions.

It seems to me that two different STOP commands are needed. One for use only when a dog is in a point situation and the other for general use . I have trained dogs to stop/sit to one pip on the whistle for most of my life but when I started training a pointing breed I found that one tiny "pip" on the whistle was enough to stop my dog but not enough to cause it to sit while on point ....it is the whistle equivalent of your Whoa command in a point situation. I use one fairly long pip on the whistle to stop/sit a dog and one very short , very quiet pip if a dog needs it in a point situation. That tiny pip is seldom used but it is useful to have it in reserve. Basically I have two STOP to whistle commands but use them to suit the situation.

Sorry for a rather muddled post but my wife is hurrying me along to go Xmas shopping ! :roll:

Bill T.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:34 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Have you even read these many posts and understood what we are saying?

That is a question you should ask yourself. you tell me how affective whoa is when the dog is out of site 99% of the time. And holding birds waiting for you to show up that 1%

I will use it to reinforce stop to flush and not reaching for 30 different ways to justify using whoa

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:30 am

blanked wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Have you even read these many posts and understood what we are saying?

That is a question you should ask yourself. you tell me how affective whoa is when the dog is out of site 99% of the time. And holding birds waiting for you to show up that 1%

I will use it to reinforce stop to flush and not reaching for 30 different ways to justify using whoa

Wait, wait, wait! You will use it to reinforce stop to flush? That is not a reason it's not important, for you it is a reason it is important!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:06 am

blanked wrote:the whoa crowd keep claiming it is the most important command

Why have a pointing breed if you have to keep them in site all the time . That's what flushing dogs are for. Especially keeping them in close enough that the command will stop him. Dogs adrenalin is so high during hunting that it takes more power to get them to obey. So to top it off why have a pointer in site all the time and also within 50 yards all the time when using voice command

Because that is where the hunter's comfort level is at. Different strokes for different folks.

Don't get me wrong...I feel very much as you do, on a personal level....BUT... what works for you and works for me may not work so well for the next guy and the situation they find themselves in.

That is OK too...there is room for all of us in the field. I like to consider that the hunter with the closer working dog leaves more room for me and my lunatics.

RayG

Becassier · Post by **Becassier** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:38 am

Let me try and answer your question “Why is Whoa not Important”

Assuming we agree Whoa is a verbal command that means to “STOP, STAND STILL, and DO NOT MOVE YOUR FEET”.

Under our method of training and our goals, by the time our dogs have completed formal training (manors on game); we have found it to be less important to use the verbal command WHOA. It is not until after our dogs have completed formal training that we may consider training a verbal command, if needed.

“Important”: Having a relevant and crucial value; Having serious meaning or worth; strongly affecting the course of events.

As I stated in the other thread, we hunt Grouse and Woodcock. With the goals we have set, we have no use for verbal commands around birds other than “here” or “leave it”.

IMO you truly only need 2 things to train a dog your eyes and your hands, if there is a third it would be duct tape for some people

My opinions are based on our goals and do not reflect the more versatile hunters. We do not duck hunt nor do we pursue fur with our dogs

If your method of training and your goals are to use more verbal commands by all means go for it. Train for it, use it, release your dog and move on..

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:54 am

Wait, wait, wait! You will use it to reinforce stop to flush? That is not a reason it's not important, for you it is a reason it is important![/quote]

As I stated way back when, the need for whoa today is a small issue compared to training methods 40 years ago. Using whoa to reinforce stop to flush is such a narrow window. I might use it once every 7 days of hunting, hardly an important command at that rate

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:37 pm

blanked wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Have you even read these many posts and understood what we are saying?

That is a question you should ask yourself. you tell me how affective whoa is when the dog is out of site 99% of the time. And holding birds waiting for you to show up that 1%

I will use it to reinforce stop to flush and not reaching for 30 different ways to justify using whoa

It is an obedience command. It would never be used in that situatuation.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:54 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
blanked wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Have you even read these many posts and understood what we are saying?

That is a question you should ask yourself. you tell me how affective whoa is when the dog is out of site 99% of the time. And holding birds waiting for you to show up that 1%

I will use it to reinforce stop to flush and not reaching for 30 different ways to justify using whoa
It is an obedience command. It would never be used in that situatuation.

I have finally come to realize that it is a waste of time trying to explain that it is simply an obedience command. It seems that some people must not even be reading the posts or just reading into them whatever they want to justify their view.

Charlie

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:43 pm

Let me get this straight. On 2 different threads for this same subject, over 50 post. Whoa on birds, whoa to stop from creeping, breaking, stop to flush and countless others . you say it's an obedience only command
That's the end of the discussion because you said it. Really

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:00 pm

Yep. It's an obedience command only and I'm bored to death of this subject.

Merry Christmas.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:04 pm

blanked wrote:Let me get this straight. On 2 different threads for this same subject, over 50 post. Whoa on birds, whoa to stop from creeping, breaking, stop to flush and countless others . you say it's an obedience only command
That's the end of the discussion because you said it. Really

You just proved my point.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:12 pm

People who want to argue can do it even when there is nothing to argue about.

bagofdonuts · Post by **bagofdonuts** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:21 am

Any well bred dog will point his birds if he sees enough of them. You don't have to teach them any commands, just take them hunting. When my brothers and I were young we'd get off the school bus, grab a shotgun, and let a couple of dogs out of my dad's pen. No training whatsoever. Plus we'd make all the mistakes - kick the pups in the butt if they hunted too close, shoot everything that flew. And guess what, we had a bunch of fine hunting dogs(some better than others, but all would point, back, and fetch).

I'm with Sharon, it's an obedience command, and like all obedience commands its a personal preference if you want to use or not.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:43 pm

41 post's and no reason why whoa is not important! One major finding is that at least one nay sayer actually admitted he did use it, just not frequently!

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:09 am

I think everyone uses whoa,stay,stop or whatever,I use "stay" voice and or whistle for whatever reason , weather clipping toe nails or stopping the dog from chasing cats,who on here says they don't use it ???

britkart · Post by **britkart** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:05 pm

First dogs don't speak English so any queue that means stop and hold still is the equivalent to Whoa. Having listened to and closely observed the "let the birds teach'em crew, they all use a cue, the Va clan loves "Stand" to death. For those grouse guys that never ue the word, What do you do when you get to a road?? which side of the road is the dog on as that car approaches?? Whoa or its equivalent is prevalent and important

Nebraska · Post by **Nebraska** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:05 pm

JKP wrote:I now teach stop to flush (thrown object), stop to shot, combine them and then condition the dog that if it stays in place, I will go and bring the bird to the dog..dog carries bird to truck (FF)...young dogs are intermittently allowed to run for the retrieve...keep them off center.....all done with check cord. All this starts with a 10 week old pup in a slow conditioning process.

Sounds very interesting! Could you please give the details on your process??

kcbullets · Post by **kcbullets** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:32 am

Just curious, why would you want to have the dog stay in place, and you fetch the bird, and then have him carry to the truck? Why wouldn't you want the dog to hunt dead bird and find the bird?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:59 am

kcbullets wrote:Just curious, why would you want to have the dog stay in place, and you fetch the bird, and then have him carry to the truck? Why wouldn't you want the dog to hunt dead bird and find the bird?

It is just a variation of the method of steadying a retriever by not letting the dog have every training bird down. Supposedly, makes they less likely to break. The only value in having the dog carry the bird to the truck is as a sort of reward and an enforcement of the hold command.

If it works, it works, but it's kind of an odd way to train.

Becassier · Post by **Becassier** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:43 pm

britkart wrote:First dogs don't speak English so any queue that means stop and hold still is the equivalent to Whoa. Having listened to and closely observed the "let the birds teach'em crew, they all use a cue, the Va clan loves "Stand" to death. For those grouse guys that never ue the word, What do you do when you get to a road?? which side of the road is the dog on as that car approaches?? Whoa or its equivalent is prevalent and important

I always know where I'm hunting, before I get to the road I get my dog to come around, I get control of them. As I get closer to the road I heal them across, it doesn't really matter what side of the road we are on. :roll:

Years ago I was under the opinion YOU HAD to teach it.. I have seen my share of people yelling WHOA, WHOA to no avail.. ON birds, off birds, to stand still.. and they don't.. I don't use it while hunting or around birds and I DO NOT USE it while cutting nails..

Here's the thing "How Important is the word WHOA?" not so much for me, less now than when I started. But if you use the word, than make it important..

Let me try to explain, Icing on the cake and candles to a 3 year old and their parents taking the pictures it's important. As we have gotten older we have chosen poppy seed cake with powder sugar, no candles. The icing and candles are not important in my house any longer.

When you have decided to teach WHOA, as with any other command you teach, it becomes EXREMELY important.

duckn66 · Post by **duckn66** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:38 pm

When I firsf got my pointer pup I had never really formally trained one. With that being said I was a sponge soaking up training advice (still am). Most everyone said whoa is not to be used around birds. Often wonder why not? I have the video of wing and shot and hear wehle saying whoa around his dogs on point, very softly and drawn out.

I did teach whoa tho. I use it while he's on the tailgate getting his collars on so he stands still. Otherwise he is fighting to get going. Guess I could have used any word I wanted.