Red setter vs irish setter

Vernal Pike · Post by **Vernal Pike** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:22 am

Same or different?

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:40 am

http://www.brytestar.com/redsetr.htm

Hope that helps.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:42 pm

http://nrsftc.com

The site above is full of great info. Read the history of the club...it is very interesting.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:36 pm

The story is pretty simple. They are outwardly the same dogs, but the Field bred setters are visually and functionally, very different dogs than the show bred dogs.

In the late 18th century and early 20th century, Irish setters were premier upland dogs..a little slow to mature, but awesome bird dogs once they did. The show fancy got hold of the breed and in a very short time, they bred the hunt almost completely out of the breed. Rumor has it they crossed with Afghan hounds to get the long flowing coats and bigger stature, but the fact is the show fancy turned a great bird dog into a hairball that could not find a bird if it was put in the same sack with it.

The FDSB registered dog breeders went back to dogs with hunting roots and they started beating the snot out of the show bred Irish in the field. The demand for show bred dogs dropped off. Since the show folks were in control of the Irish Setter Club of America, they voted to close their registry to dogs they could not compete with, rather than change. They closed several loopholes, and prevented several "end arounds" that have been used by folks of other breeds to cross register.

The split is almost compete today. From a practical standpoint...if the dog is solely registered AKC, it probably won't hunt to the level one can expect from an English setter. If it is dual registered or FDSB registered...it probably can hunt just fine.

There are some decent hunting AKC dogs, and there are some great folks who do try hard to keep and develop the field skills...but they are the exception. Most of the show bred Irish can't hunt very well.

RayG

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:08 pm

The other side of the coin is that during the time reciprocity was an option, some red setter breeders got on their high horse and said to heck with running AKC and they refused to register their pups with other than FDSB. Then when reciprocity ended, those breeders had no other options. Some of them didn't and don't care, while others regretted that decision. It's a loss to both sides because the gene pool is small on both sides, and is getting smaller.

FWIW FDSB didn't register dogs crossed with Vs, GSPs, or Brittanies ( if this actually happened, as back in the 50s those breeds didn't have much to offer as far as needed improvements to Irish Setters go) as crossbred setters. Crossbred setters of any variety are setters crossed with other setter breeds. There have been crosses made to pointers but those breedings weren't advertised as such and papers were altered.

It wouldn't be all that difficult to find an Irish Setter that can hunt. There are plenty of them out there. Anyone interested in a red dog can find one to suit in looks and or ability within the ranks of dual-type Irish, fieldbred Irish, or red setters.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:34 pm

shags wrote:The other side of the coin is that during the time reciprocity was an option, some red setter breeders got on their high horse and said to heck with running AKC and they refused to register their pups with other than FDSB. Then when reciprocity ended, those breeders had no other options. Some of them didn't and don't care, while others regretted that decision. It's a loss to both sides because the gene pool is small on both sides, and is getting smaller.

FWIW FDSB didn't register dogs crossed with Vs, GSPs, or Brittanies ( if this actually happened, as back in the 50s those breeds didn't have much to offer as far as needed improvements to Irish Setters go) as crossbred setters. Crossbred setters of any variety are setters crossed with other setter breeds. There have been crosses made to pointers but those breedings weren't advertised as such and papers were altered.

It wouldn't be all that difficult to find an Irish Setter that can hunt. There are plenty of them out there. Anyone interested in a red dog can find one to suit in looks and or ability within the ranks of dual-type Irish, fieldbred Irish, or red setters.

Amen! One thing always sticks out when I hear how show dogs can't hunt. That isn't true in most cases. it is much harder to breed hunt out of a dog than to breed it in. I think we all agree the show bred dogs do not hunt like the field bred but most do hunt and if you start selecting for it then it can reappear rather quickly. But we all need to understand that our field bred dogs are just as far away from the original intent as the show bred dogs are and maybe further. The main difference is in what the owners want and in many cases hunters are more than happy with the slower, closer dog than they are with the fast distant hunter that many of us like.

And one other point, it is my understanding the big pretty solid red setters were being bred for in Ireland long before any were brought across the pond. Not sure why the solid red dogs were thought more attractive but ................

Ezzy

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:55 pm

After reading the OP a second time, I would say they are overall very different. If your interest lies in akc showing an akc Irish setters would be a wise choice. If you are looking for a hunting dog the red setter would be your best bet.

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:24 pm

ymepointer wrote:After reading the OP a second time, I would say they are overall very different. If your interest lies in akc showing an akc Irish setters would be a wise choice. If you are looking for a hunting dog the red setter would be your best bet.

Lots of AKC and CKC Irish Setter breeders out there producing some top notch hunting dogs.

Have had English and Gordons and this guy ranks up at the top over dogs I have hunted over.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:23 pm

Pretty Irish...what kennel?

Fran Seagren · Post by **Fran Seagren** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:03 pm

I'm not sure about the one description of our FDSB registered Irish Setters - that we call Red Setters - being "barrel chested and stocky" and not as good looking as the big, long haired, show variety. But, that's probably why we have so many choices in hunting dogs. People still get to decide which dog they prefer. Here's some pics of Robert. Some of his relatives are also members of this forum and their dogs don't fit that descriptions either.

I trim hair on Robert's legs and tail, but his body coat is slick as a seal and is naturally short and smooth which makes it really nice when hunting in the cover we do. To watch him hunt never fails to bring a thrill to my heart and a smile to my face. He glides over the ground almost like he floats.

I, too, believe that "any" dog can hunt. And, I've seen the show type Irish Setters hunt and there is no comparison. The part about the Irish Setter Club of America not wanting our field type Irish Setters allowed in AKC is true. It does beg the question, "why"?

In the last couple years, we've introduced our granddaughter to hunting. We have two labs and a brittany in addition to our two red setters. We've had Ashley hunt with all of the dogs so she can get experience with flushers as well as pointing dogs. She announced this December that she definitely wants a Red Setter. She apparently prefers that style of hunting. I think Robert prefers to hunt with Ashley because she's an "Annie Oakley" and I'm definitely not a good shot. He loves the retrieve, too.

Fran Seagren · Post by **Fran Seagren** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:06 pm

To, NLsetter: Great looking dog! Love the pics.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:39 am

http://www.dalecreekgundogs.com/index.html

National Champion Zansett Simply Red "Red"
Owned by Stan Zdanczewicz and Trained and Handled by Tom Waite
First (and only) red setter to win a National Open Shooting Dog Championship that was open to ALL breeds...beat 30+ pointers and setters.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:19 am

I know that many will disagree with me, and I know there are exceptions to every rule, but here is the advice that I give when someone asks me about buying a pointer or setter of any kind. "If you talk to someone that has puppies for sale, and they say that the puppies are AKC registered, do not walk but RUN in the opposite direction."

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:11 am

I may have come down a little harshly. If so, I apologize, especially to those who are trying to maintain and improve the field abilities in these grand dogs.

One of the most amazing and exciting dogs(of ANY breed) I ever had the pleasure to see in the field was a dual registered Irish setter. Her name was Speedy Edie O'Floin. Her brother Harry was no slouch either. I competed against, scouted for and judged both of them on several occasions. Win or lose...they made you sit up and watch. These dogs could compete in horseback shooting dog stakes anywhere, in any company, and make you look. Another,years back, that made me want to look was Bearcat, who was, I believe, only FDSB registered.

RayG

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:39 am

rinker wrote:I know that many will disagree with me, and I know there are exceptions to every rule, but here is the advice that I give when someone asks me about buying a pointer or setter of any kind. "If you talk to someone that has puppies for sale, and they say that the puppies are AKC registered, do not walk but RUN in the opposite direction."

Why? I have AKC dogs that I will run against any dog. I also have a CKC dog and 1 that isn't even registered and I will hunt them with any dog.

You can register a dog in FDSB, NASTRA, AKC or any other organization. It doesn't prove what they can be.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:04 am

There are some spectacular trial dogs in the akc side. Brophy's history speaks for itself. Cedar creek competes actively on both sides of the fence (meaning akc and AF) and wins in both places, rightfully so. Brownhaven Irish setters, along with iskote and eshod are some other consistent performers with records that speak for themselves, regardless if it is AKC or FDSB.
Dual type breeders like Russell's, Mythodical's, Bright Star, Runnymede, etc have seen success on both the field and show ring with dual champions, etc.
The majority of show dogs have the ability to use their nose. It is style, ground speed, and range which is variable, but at least the owners and breeders are reaching out and stepping into the field.
I hate the lack of reciprocal, and I will continue to push ISCA for the change. The people who make the decisions are largly owners of dogs who are no more or less genetically clean than those dogs I am unable to access on the FDSB side. As breeders, I don't think we are lost without the ability to breed to those dogs, but it certainly would be nice to have the options.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:06 am

NLsetter wrote:
ymepointer wrote:After reading the OP a second time, I would say they are overall very different. If your interest lies in akc showing an akc Irish setters would be a wise choice. If you are looking for a hunting dog the red setter would be your best bet.

Lots of AKC and CKC Irish Setter breeders out there producing some top notch hunting dogs.

Have had English and Gordons and this guy ranks up at the top over dogs I have hunted over.

Russell's?

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:35 pm

I'd take exception to some of the description in http://www.brytestar.com/redsetr.htm write up also.

Cooper is 15 months and weighs 33 lbs. The last time I had him out running he averaged 8.9 MPH on a 55 minute run with a top end of 21. That average includes drink stops as well as peeing, pooping and pointing, not necessarily in that order. I've never considered him or my females as barrel-chested and short legged. Like mine theirs reach the ground. The Red Setters are smaller generally 30 to 40 lb females and 40 to 50 lb males opposed to the AKC standard of

"The make and fit of all parts and their overall balance in the animal are rated more important. 27 inches at the withers and a show weight of about 70 pounds is considered ideal for the dog; the bitch 25 inches, 60 pounds."

Another interesting web site is from the country of origin, you might notice how they refer to the dogs also. http://www.irishredsetterclub.com/home/

As far as claims that one or the other faction has "changed" the breed. I find it interesting to look up old pictures, those from the early 1900's back and compare those dogs even show champions to the modern typical from each linage.

Craig O.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:17 pm

Brophy kennels used to be and may still be NRSFTC members.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:43 pm

ymepointer wrote:Brophy kennels used to be and may still be NRSFTC members.

Don't believe so but I'll check and get back to you.

Craig O.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Red Delicious wrote:I'd take exception to some of the description in http://www.brytestar.com/redsetr.htm write up also.

Cooper is 15 months and weighs 33 lbs. The last time I had him out running he averaged 8.9 MPH on a 55 minute run with a top end of 21. That average includes drink stops as well as peeing, pooping and pointing, not necessarily in that order. I've never considered him or my females as barrel-chested and short legged. Like mine theirs reach the ground. The Red Setters are smaller generally 30 to 40 lb females and 40 to 50 lb males opposed to the AKC standard of

"The make and fit of all parts and their overall balance in the animal are rated more important. 27 inches at the withers and a show weight of about 70 pounds is considered ideal for the dog; the bitch 25 inches, 60 pounds."

Another interesting web site is from the country of origin, you might notice how they refer to the dogs also. http://www.irishredsetterclub.com/home/

As far as claims that one or the other faction has "changed" the breed. I find it interesting to look up old pictures, those from the early 1900's back and compare those dogs even show champions to the modern typical from each linage.

Craig O.

Craig,

Just because that is the AKC standard doesnt mean all AKC dogs are that size and weight. They might not be registered FDSB, but they could fit right in with the crowd.
My best,
Kelli

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:42 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
Red Delicious wrote: Craig,

Just because that is the AKC standard doesnt mean all AKC dogs are that size and weight. They might not be registered FDSB, but they could fit right in with the crowd.
My best,
Kelli

I realize that but wouldn't the undersized AKC dogs be laughed out of the show ring also?

IMHO there are two sub-species of the Irish as there are with a lot of working dogs. As I told my son who just bought a duel purpose motorcycle remember it won't do either as well as your other bikes. If you try I'll see you in the hospital. Very, very few Duel purpose dogs do both really well.

If the Red Dog is of the hunting strain it doesn't matter if it's AKC or FDSP registered its' genes probably stem from the same source, Askew's Carolina Lady.

Just my thoughts

Craig O.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:21 pm

Red Delicious wrote:
ymepointer wrote:Brophy kennels used to be and may still be NRSFTC members.
Don't believe so but I'll check and get back to you.

Craig O.

Ken was a member of NRSFTC at the time of his passing several years ago.

Craig O.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:33 pm

Red Delicious wrote:I realize that but wouldn't the undersized AKC dogs be laughed out of the show ring also?

Not taking issue with your post, Red, but your comment brings to mind a misconception I've noticed over time, crossing over between AKC and AF trials...it seems some folks think that because a dog is AKC registered, it is a show dog, or a show dog wannabe. I've experienced it myself at times, going to new-to-me AF trials. As we introduce ourselves around the parking lot, and mention that we run a lot of AKC, it isn't unusual for guys to ask, "oh, pretty dogs, are they show champions?" about my setters which are from AF AA or coverdog lines.

It's amusing but alarming at the same time

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:35 pm

Taking a FDSB dog and registering it AKC then using that dog to defend AKC dogs as good hunters is illogical. You could take a AKC show champion and register it FDSB then use it as an example of elegantly conformed AF dogs too but it would not be logical.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:58 pm

ymepointer wrote:Taking a FDSB dog and registering it AKC then using that dog to defend AKC dogs as good hunters is illogical. You could take a AKC show champion and register it FDSB then use it as an example of elegantly conformed AF dogs too but it would not be logical.

Your assumptions are clogging your ability to see the point.
Not all AKC Irish setters are show standard. Those dogs whom excellent in the field that I speak of are also not all a product of the FDSB.

At this point, in Irish, a dual who is great in both is the diamond in the ruff. Sometimes you get one that is great and in area and good enough in another. Some of the time you will see dual bred dogs who are "good enough" at both.

We are all masters of our own minds and we have our own preferences. Most akc show bred dogs I have seen COULD make good hunters. My meat dog is a dog I showed to her ch. She produces birds. She should be taken to her MH... But I prefer trials, and for that, I have my field bred dogs. My show dog may not have the ground speed, but she can last as long as the field dogs, she works as hard, her tail may be level, but she is every bit of intense that I ask for.
The show dogs can do it. They just won't do it in the eyes of everyone.
For craig-
I just bred a litter on the field side, and one male is structurally super impressive to my show eye. He will just never be of size or produce the coat. But in the right areas... He may have a chance. I'm debating keeping him around to see how he develops. I am not scared of showing smaller dogs. A bropby dog named Rio (Brophys Rio Grande) is the best structured field bred dog I've ever seen, photo or in life. He runs, he oozes style, he's resilient. He earned show points last year. For someone of my background, it is very exciting to see that it is possible.

I'm sorry I'm ranting. I just mean my point is that they can't just all be lumped together, regardless of what area of red dog we are talking about.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:06 pm

shags wrote:
Red Delicious wrote:I realize that but wouldn't the undersized AKC dogs be laughed out of the show ring also?
Not taking issue with your post, Red, but your comment brings to mind a misconception I've noticed over time, crossing over between AKC and AF trials...it seems some folks think that because a dog is AKC registered, it is a show dog, or a show dog wannabe. I've experienced it myself at times, going to new-to-me AF trials. As we introduce ourselves around the parking lot, and mention that we run a lot of AKC, it isn't unusual for guys to ask, "oh, pretty dogs, are they show champions?" about my setters which are from AF AA or coverdog lines.

It's amusing but alarming at the same time

I didn't mean to come across to strong, hope it wasn't taken that way. I don't know much about AKC and how they work but seems to me there should be a purpose to a breed standard. I'm not even sure what the correct emotion is when a person involved with AKC says dogs the size of Red Setters would be laughed at and then there are AKC registered dogs the same size and are from the same gene pool. Maybe we all think what I'm doing is right and you all need to do it just like me. I don't know people confuse me, probably why I spend so much time with dogs. :roll:

Craig O.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:55 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
ymepointer wrote:For craig-
I just bred a litter on the field side, and one male is structurally super impressive to my show eye. He will just never be of size or produce the coat. But in the right areas... He may have a chance. I'm debating keeping him around to see how he develops. I am not scared of showing smaller dogs. A bropby dog named Rio (Brophys Rio Grande) is the best structured field bred dog I've ever seen, photo or in life. He runs, he oozes style, he's resilient. He earned show points last year. For someone of my background, it is very exciting to see that it is possible.

I'm sorry I'm ranting. I just mean my point is that they can't just all be lumped together, regardless of what area of red dog we are talking about.

I guess I haven't thought of it from that side of the fence. I'll need to go ponder that one for awhile.

Craig O.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:27 am

ymepointer wrote:Taking a FDSB dog and registering it AKC then using that dog to defend AKC dogs as good hunters is illogical. You could take a AKC show champion and register it FDSB then use it as an example of elegantly conformed AF dogs too but it would not be logical.

On the other hand one cannot assume that because a dog is "purely" FDSB, that it's a good bird dog.

Which registry an owner prefers is totally irrelevent as to an individual dog's ability.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:32 am

This discussion seems to miss an important point. To make good hunting dogs, you need gene pool....to get genepool, you need a good group of folks that share priorities. The real question is not whether you can find a good dog in any registry, but how many folks are working together and headed in the same general direction. Unfortunately, my experience with AKC clubs has been that they are usually a group of different factions, each pursuing a favorite activity or interpretation of a breed.
Very often you're left in the dark about the all around abilities of a lot of dogs.

I would guess that the best future for an Irish working setter lies with the Red Setter group.

As far as show dogs making good hunting dogs...I'm sure there are some. I'm also sure that the true Dual enthusiasts can get pretty frustrated looking for good breeding stock.

Amen! One thing always sticks out when I hear how show dogs can't hunt. That isn't true in most cases

Depends on what level of ability you expect. I don't know of anyone that has gone to an AKC dog show looking for a hunting Springer, English Cocker or Irish Setter for that manner. So whether the Springer ring is full of super hunting dogs or not,
the whole AKC "blue ribbon, 8x10 glossy" mania is not serving breeds well.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:32 am

JKP wrote:the whole AKC "blue ribbon, 8x10 glossy" mania is not serving breeds well.

Lay the the blame where it belongs - on the breed parent clubs. Not on a registry.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:00 am

shags wrote:
JKP wrote:the whole AKC "blue ribbon, 8x10 glossy" mania is not serving breeds well.
Lay the the blame where it belongs - on the breed parent clubs. Not on a registry.

I agree with Shags on this one.

The FDSB dogs are registered that way and continue to be registered that way because the owners and breeders do not care about competing in conformation events. Their focus is almost solely on field performance and the field events which attempt to measure that field performance. It is, and always has been a relatively small gene pool, but it is a gene pool that is, and has been focused on field performance. To my mind, it is a safer bet to get an FDSB bred Irish than most other breeds, if one is only interested in field performance.

Some of the very nicest bird dogs I have ever seen in my geographic area are FDSB Irish Setters and if I ever decided to get another breed of bird dog besides pointers...it would very likely be a FDSB or(ideally) a dual registered Irish. That dog CAN hunt.

I will give all the credit in the world to those folks who are attempting to keep, maintain and improve the field characteristics and performances of the AKC Irish Setter. They are working with one hand tied behind their backs, IMO, as far as the breed club is concerned, but they are trying nonetheless. They are to be commended and encouraged.

RayG

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:57 am

Red Delicious wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:
ymepointer wrote:For craig-
I just bred a litter on the field side, and one male is structurally super impressive to my show eye. He will just never be of size or produce the coat. But in the right areas... He may have a chance. I'm debating keeping him around to see how he develops. I am not scared of showing smaller dogs. A bropby dog named Rio (Brophys Rio Grande) is the best structured field bred dog I've ever seen, photo or in life. He runs, he oozes style, he's resilient. He earned show points last year. For someone of my background, it is very exciting to see that it is possible.

I'm sorry I'm ranting. I just mean my point is that they can't just all be lumped together, regardless of what area of red dog we are talking about.
I guess I haven't thought of it from that side of the fence. I'll need to go ponder that one for awhile.

Craig O.

Kwik:

Done pondering and you are right. We have the same goal, to keep the hunting ability of the Irish Red Setter competitive with any breed of bird dog. The difference is you and others are working from within while myself and others are working from the outside. I actually have a decided advantage in that if I find an AKC Irish that has what I'm looking for I can simply use it in my breeding program and register the litter with FDSB. You on the other hand have the smaller gene pool to work with and thus the harder row-to-hoe. Keep up the good fight and I'll try to be more supportive.

Hope to see you at a trial again soon.

Thanks for the food for thought.

Craig O.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:36 pm

When Red or Irish Setters are brought my husband always talks about a female owned by Ken Ruff . Ken spent a week hunting ruffed grouse with Howie back in late 80's. The dog name was Ruby,Nat CH. Howie always says Ruby was as fine of a bird dog as any you would want to put down in the grouse woods. Anybody know her registered name?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:25 pm

Lay the the blame where it belongs - on the breed parent clubs. Not on a registry.

Can't argue with your statement...but remember...AKC clubs are about the "big tent"...the "rainbow coalition" where everyone can belong and pursue his/her favorite activity.
There is a clearly defined focus in the performance clubs that at the minimum keep most folks marching in the same direction.

Don't forget, that unless things have changed, the AKC has to review and accept a breed standard...they discourage disqualifications and performance requirements. Bad for "gate receipts"....

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm

I have seen a decent number of Irish Setter's in my life but until a few years ago, I'haven't seen one I would have as a hunting dog. They were all very large, very hairy and goofy. I have read from other people about Kwik Irish's dog's and have seen field photo's of them. They seem to be nice dog's and an exception to the rule. Her avatar dog is the only one I've ever seen with a high tail and doesn't appear to be a large boned dog. A few years ago I was asked to judge an Irish field trial and I watched my Stormy's parent's run. When they got there and were tied out the morning of the trail, they were absolutely nothing like I'd ever seen before. Their coats are fairly slik with feathering on the hind legs, front legs, logger hair under the chest and Stormy has longer hair on the front of his chest. Neither Breelie, Robert, Cooper, Stormy or any of the other reds I've seen since then in any way other than color, resemble an AKC Irish. They are much smaller, Stormy is 44.5# and, I just measured, 22" at the shoulder. Breelie and Robert are about the same size. In that first trial, Gordon's, English Setter's and Pointer's ran in the shooting dog stake. Breelie didn't win that stake, she absolutely blew every other dog out of the water, stunning doesn't describe her. Robert is pretty much the same, just terrific! He did crash and burn but his ground race and style on a bird was not matched by any other dog except Breelie. I got an over dose of Red Setter that day and got my name in for a pup in a future litter, about 1 1/2 years later I got Stormy. He developed slow but boy when he started turning on he was amazing. I never lose him in the field and he never runs off. One of the things that really impressed me with Robert and Breelie in their brace's was that the handler's never handled them! Those dog's stayed to the front and kept their handler in sight most the time, big as they went was about 400yds but them this was a foot stake.

I did some reading and what I understand about the Red is that in the early 50's a few guy's got fed up with the direction of the AKC Irish Setter. So they found the best female they could find and bred it to 1946 Nat Ch Mississippi Zev. The rest is history! They went through the process of recording breeding and maintaining breeding record's and Both AKC and Amer Fld recognized them but, called them Irish Setter's. I call them Red Setter's as it seem's everyone that has them does. Problem is, I don't want mine to be associated with the AKC bench setter, there is a world of difference in them. My Stormy is not eligible for AKC reg and I don't really care. He is what he is and he's turning into a very special bird dog. As I understand it he could be registered with AKC but it would require a bunch of DNA test's. Sorry but I'm a field dog owner, doesn't really matter to me with which registery it's with but performance does matter and size matter's. I don't want a heavy, tall hairy dog with a level tail.

You've all seen my Stormy but here he is again. This is not an Irish Setter. To short, to light weight, to slick, and looks a ton on birds.

Can you get an Irish that will hunt? I think Kwik Irish has pretty much proven you can. But then you can also find diamond's in Oklahoma but if your serious about finding diamond's, you'll look in So. Africa!

DennisCanfield · Post by **DennisCanfield** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:46 am

Finding diamonds are you kidding

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:31 am

Is it fair to judge an entire breed by what you've seen in your backyard? Another consideration is because it's a small breed population-wise, sometimes in a region the breed is represented by only a couple of bloodlines, and often those dogs are related. So what you see isn't always more than a thin slice of the pie.
There plenty of good field Irish Setters in other parts of the country. I've competed against them, and owned some, and owner-trained and handled all my dogs finished field and/or amateur field championships in all breed competition.

Check out these AKC Irish Setters
http://www.brophysirishsetters.com
http://www.karrycourt.com/photo_album.html
There are other breeders of good field Irish - Look 'em up, I gotta go feed horses

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:48 pm

shags wrote:Is it fair to judge an entire breed by what you've seen in your backyard? Another consideration is because it's a small breed population-wise, sometimes in a region the breed is represented by only a couple of bloodlines, and often those dogs are related. So what you see isn't always more than a thin slice of the pie.
There plenty of good field Irish Setters in other parts of the country. I've competed against them, and owned some, and owner-trained and handled all my dogs finished field and/or amateur field championships in all breed competition.

Check out these AKC Irish Setters
http://www.brophysirishsetters.com
http://www.karrycourt.com/photo_album.html
There are other breeders of good field Irish - Look 'em up, I gotta go feed horses

Probably not but I go back a long way. In the 80's and 90's I never saw a field Irish. First one was last year maybe year before, at a pointing dog test. No idea how the dog did but it was huge and hairy. Those two things really turn me off. A field dog of any breed should look like an athlete, not a couch potato. the Red's don't get much attention, shoot, I'd never seen one till a few years ago, couldn't believe what I was seeing. for me, this is a different dog.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:48 pm

shags wrote:Is it fair to judge an entire breed by what you've seen in your backyard? Another consideration is because it's a small breed population-wise, sometimes in a region the breed is represented by only a couple of bloodlines, and often those dogs are related. So what you see isn't always more than a thin slice of the pie.
There plenty of good field Irish Setters in other parts of the country. I've competed against them, and owned some, and owner-trained and handled all my dogs finished field and/or amateur field championships in all breed competition.

Check out these AKC Irish Setters
http://www.brophysirishsetters.com
http://www.karrycourt.com/photo_album.html
There are other breeders of good field Irish - Look 'em up, I gotta go feed horses

Probably not but I go back a long way. In the 80's and 90's I never saw a field Irish. First one was last year maybe year before, at a pointing dog test. No idea how the dog did but it was huge and hairy. Those two things really turn me off. A field dog of any breed should look like an athlete, not a couch potato. the Red's don't get much attention, shoot, I'd never seen one till a few years ago, couldn't believe what I was seeing. for me, this is a different dog.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:39 pm

DonF wrote:They are much smaller, Stormy is 44.5# and, I just measured, 22" at the shoulder.

That's interesting Don, I had cooper (Stormy's liter mate brother) to the vet Monday and he is 23.5" at the shoulder and 33.6 lbs. I've thought from looking at your pictures that Stormy was a litter stocker then Cooper.

Craig O.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:01 pm

DonF wrote:Probably not but I go back a long way. In the 80's and 90's I never saw a field Irish. First one was last year maybe year before, at a pointing dog test. No idea how the dog did but it was huge and hairy. Those two things really turn me off. A field dog of any breed should look like an athlete, not a couch potato. the Red's don't get much attention, shoot, I'd never seen one till a few years ago, couldn't believe what I was seeing. for me, this is a different dog.

LOL Don...you're making me feel REALLY old. In the 80s and 90s I already had a couple of FC/AFC Irish.

I'm glad you found a good red dog. They are awesome!

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:07 pm

shags wrote:Is it fair to judge an entire breed by what you've seen in your backyard? Another consideration is because it's a small breed population-wise, sometimes in a region the breed is represented by only a couple of bloodlines, and often those dogs are related. So what you see isn't always more than a thin slice of the pie.
There plenty of good field Irish Setters in other parts of the country. I've competed against them, and owned some, and owner-trained and handled all my dogs finished field and/or amateur field championships in all breed competition.

Check out these AKC Irish Setters

Here is a list of Kennels that are NRSFTC (National Red Setter Field Trial Club) members who produce some ACK Red Setters. Most duel register their litters FDSB/AKC and some produce FDSB only litters also. It should be noted that most if not all of the field Irish around today owe their genetics to the efforts of Ned LaGrande and others starting in 1949. It wasn't until the 1970's (I'm pretty sure) that reciprocity became an issue. Many of the Red Setter breeders maintained their AKC registration ability.

If you are interested in the history here is a link Ned LaGrande wrote about their efforts.

http://www.fireflyfarmandkennel.com/
http://celtickennels.nrsftc.com/

I can only but in 2 urls per post. The rest will come.

There may be others but these are the ones I know about.

Thanks

Craig O.

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:07 pm

http://www.nrsftc.com/ConneautCreek/
http://silvercreek.nrsftc.com/

Red Delicious · Post by **Red Delicious** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:07 pm

http://www.nrsftc.com/ZZZ/
Ken Ruff (Brophy kennel) was a NRSFTC member at the time of his passing.

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:45 pm

ymepointer wrote:Pretty Irish...what kennel?

Russell's in BC Canada

Sire is Brophy's Rio Grande

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:49 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
NLsetter wrote:
ymepointer wrote:After reading the OP a second time, I would say they are overall very different. If your interest lies in akc showing an akc Irish setters would be a wise choice. If you are looking for a hunting dog the red setter would be your best bet.

Lots of AKC and CKC Irish Setter breeders out there producing some top notch hunting dogs.

Have had English and Gordons and this guy ranks up at the top over dogs I have hunted over.

Russell's?

Yes, from the Hope X Rio Litter. He is a running and bird finding machine. No problems doing 60-70kms a day on the tundra here in Newfoundland

RyanDoolittle · Post by **RyanDoolittle** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:20 pm

There is a difference between being able to hunt and hunting.

I have had both, an old school bench bred Irish that was a great pheasant dog. Boring as heck to watch but would put birds in the bag. I now have a field bred dog out of Chukarhill Burn Notice and he even though he puts birds in the bag he is much more exciting to watch.

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:22 pm

I love that the classic point has come through in this dog, historically here in Newfoundland no setters have pointed with 12 O'clock tails, many local bred English actually lay down and crawl on point. Dogs have been bred to hunt over a very flighty willow ptarmigan population.

This guy stands around 26 inches and is about 53-55lbs, average hunt is 40 miles for him a day and averages normally 8-10mph over a hunt. 200-400 yard ranger depending on terrain. I run him an hour every night off leash and he is always 12-13mph average speed on open terrain. How would he do in a show ring? have no idea as I dont have much of a show eye but he is great in the field.

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:28 pm