Rabies vaccination

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:01 pm

At what point (age) do you stop taking your dog in for a rabies shot? I have a large breed dog that is now 7 1/2 who has had three rabies vaccinations. One as a puppy at 6 mos. another a year later, and then three years later. Legally, I am required to do this every three years which also serves as a registration for the county.Just not sure that it makes sense to continue vaccinating a dog this age.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:24 pm

It makes no sense, but thanks to the veterinary lobby it is the law. Your lucky, most states it is annual. We are over inoculating our dogs. When your vet goes to the Bahamas for continuing education/recertification training one of the courses he takes is how to improve business or what some call over billing.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:37 pm

It cost me $13 per dog per year and I haven't seen any negative signs. I would love to hear any proof that annual shots hurts in any way though.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:51 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:It cost me $13 per dog per year and I haven't seen any negative signs. I would love to hear any proof that annual shots hurts in any way though.

You have a found a reasonably priced and honest vet, most are trained to upcharge with additional tests and procedures, some unneeded. Still you are giving a 5 year vaccine (at a minimum) annually. When you have an average of 15 dogs, that is $800.00 that could be spent hunting.

You can do your own Google, there is not much proof, but agreement we are over innoculating. Dogs need the full regimen of puppy shots and a couple of boosters. The problem is titters tests are much more expensive that just giving the vaccine. No dog has ever been proven to need more than 3 rabies shots. I am not anti-vet, I have many good hunting friends that are vets, just anti most big city vets.

http://pets.webmd.com/features/pet_vaccination

I give my own shots, including rabies. I just buy them for the tags and throw the unneeded ones away.

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:53 pm

Neil wrote: When your vet goes to the Bahamas for continuing education/recertification training one of the courses he takes is how to improve business or what some call over billing.

That's funny. The Vet that I go to, when I have to go, went to Vet school in the Bahamas. They must have paid attention.

We can't do our own rabies in Pa. No rabies tag = not legit.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:02 pm

Neil wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:It cost me $13 per dog per year and I haven't seen any negative signs. I would love to hear any proof that annual shots hurts in any way though.
You have a found a reasonably priced and honest vet, most are trained to upcharge with additional tests and procedures, some unneeded. Still you are giving a 5 year vaccine (at a minimum) annually. When you have an average of 15 dogs, that is $800.00 that could be spent hunting.

You can do your own Google, there is not much proof, but agreement we are over innoculating. Dogs need the full regimen of puppy shots and a couple of boosters. The problem is titters tests are much more expensive that just giving the vaccine. No dog has ever been proven to need more than 3 rabies shots. I am not anti-vet, I have many good hunting friends that are vets, just anti most big city vets.

http://pets.webmd.com/features/pet_vaccination

I give my own shots, including rabies. I just buy them for the tags and throw the unneeded ones away.

I live far from the city but sometimes I have to board my dogs while I go visit the VA Hospitals and they require dogs be up to State standards on shots. If you travel, you will run into the same thing.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:20 pm

In Ontario we must have our dogs vaccinated every 3 years until the day they die. The answer to your question depends on the laws for your State.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:15 pm

ROTTnBRITT wrote:
Neil wrote: When your vet goes to the Bahamas for continuing education/recertification training one of the courses he takes is how to improve business or what some call over billing.
That's funny. The Vet that I go to, when I have to go, went to Vet school in the Bahamas. They must have paid attention.

We can't do our own rabies in Pa. No rabies tag = not legit.

And that is the vet lobby that does not allow the sale of rabies shots. Same with not selling Frontline without a test for heartworm. I buy about 150 doses of Ivermectin for $40.00. I only take my dogs to the vet for emergencies, and I have never complained about the bill, one was over $2,000 and she died. They deserve to be well paid for their skill, not for giving shots.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:44 pm

Neil wrote:
ROTTnBRITT wrote:
Neil wrote: When your vet goes to the Bahamas for continuing education/recertification training one of the courses he takes is how to improve business or what some call over billing.
That's funny. The Vet that I go to, when I have to go, went to Vet school in the Bahamas. They must have paid attention.

We can't do our own rabies in Pa. No rabies tag = not legit.
And that is the vet lobby that does not allow the sale of rabies shots. Same with not selling Frontline without a test for heartworm. I buy about 150 doses of Ivermectin for $40.00. I only take my dogs to the vet for emergencies, and I have never complained about the bill, one was over $2,000 and she died. They deserve to be well paid for their skill, not for giving shots.

Remember Neil, most of the cost of the rabies shot is collected by the county for their taxes. And a vet can't sell you Ivomec for dogs since that you are buying has only been approved for cattle or horses.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:22 am

nanney1 wrote:At what point (age) do you stop taking your dog in for a rabies shot? I have a large breed dog that is now 7 1/2 who has had three rabies vaccinations. One as a puppy at 6 mos. another a year later, and then three years later. Legally, I am required to do this every three years which also serves as a registration for the county.Just not sure that it makes sense to continue vaccinating a dog this age.

Most likely to be in compliance with your state and county laws, you have to vaccinate. What is the penalty if he's picked up without proof of vaccination, or what if he bites someone? And are you willing to take the risk of disease if your dog tangles with a rabid coon, fox, or yote? At 7 1/2 you can anticipate another two rabies vaccinations in your dog's lifetime.
That's what another whole $50 for the rest of his life?
Seriously.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:55 am

No, Ezzy, the Ivermec that I use is injectable labeled for swine and cattle, but it is the active ingredient in Frontline, so the drug is approved, it is just the vet lobby controlling how it is sold.

Most of the big city people that I know that take their dog in for their annual rabies and health check end up with a $300.00 bill.

Over the last 60 years, both as a profession and for recreation, I have spent thousands of days afield, I have encountered exactly one rabid animal. That was a nearly dead skunk of no threat. I believe in using the rabies vaccine, but when it is labeled for 5 years, it is nonsense to give it annually.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:19 am

Pull your pants up Neil, your starting to show your a$$, just a little bit...
Arkansas state law says a rabies vaccine has to be given by a veterinarian. If your giving your own, presumably after buying them from one of your vet hunting buddys, then both of you are breaking the law. Not to mention the fact that by throwing them away and not giving them at all you are putting your dogs and potentially every other person or dog they come in contact with at risk. Do a little research into what happens when a dog or human contracts rabies (signs, symptoms, etc), and i think you will see why pretty much every state in the union has a rabies control act.

Admittedly, the incidence of rabies is very low, and therefore the chance of a dog contracting rabies is low... thats because rabies vaccination is very effective and has been the law in most states for a long time. You can thank the "vet lobby" for that. Just within this century, the number of human deaths in the United States attributed to rabies has declined from 100 or more each year to an average of 2 or 3 each year. Two programs have been responsible for this decline. First, animal control and vaccination programs begun in the 1940's and oral rabies vaccination programs in the 2000's have eliminated domestic dogs as reservoirs of rabies in the United States. Second, effective human rabies vaccines and immunoglobulins have been developed.

You dont need a heartworm test to buy Frontline... its for fleas and ticks, and you can get it at Walmart. And the active ingredient is NOT ivomec... not even close. And trust me, the FEDERAL laws regulating veterinary medicine and the use of medications in animals hinder my practice and profitability a whole lot more than they help it.

As always, i could be wrong, but i have never seen a rabies vaccine with a 5 yr duration of immunity on the label.

Ive never been to the Bahamas or any other tropical location for that matter, let alone for continuing education. Chicago is as exotic as it gets for CE conferences for me, AND I get to pay for the privelege. Just the 3 day conference will run you $500. That does NOT include room and board, and it also will get me just short of half of the CE hours the state says I have to have in a year.

I'll get off my soap box now. Hope I didnt come off as too much of a smart a$$, I just tend to get a little sensitive when folks accuse us vets of being money hungry quacks pushing "unnecessary" meds and procedures.

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:41 am

dog dr wrote: As always, i could be wrong, but i have never seen a rabies vaccine with a 5 yr duration of immunity on the label.

And what the label says doesn't match current science (look up "Rabies Challenge".
This research has shown that a rabies vaccination is good for at least 5 years and probably much longer (maybe lifetime).

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:59 am

Neil wrote:No, Ezzy, the Ivermec that I use is injectable labeled for swine and cattle, but it is the active ingredient in Frontline, so the drug is approved, it is just the vet lobby controlling how it is sold.

Most of the big city people that I know that take their dog in for their annual rabies and health check end up with a $300.00 bill.

Over the last 60 years, both as a profession and for recreation, I have spent thousands of days afield, I have encountered exactly one rabid animal. That was a nearly dead skunk of no threat. I believe in using the rabies vaccine, but when it is labeled for 5 years, it is nonsense to give it annually.

The vet lobby has nothing to do with itor at least didn't when I was involved. The manufacturer has not done the testing necessary to get it approved for dogs so it can not be on the label till that is done and approved. I know Frontline is approved but that is not the injectable type you and I are using. The problem is that there is so many tests required the manufacturer will never recover the huge amount of money spent in doing the test for minor species so no one does it. Testing costs usually amount to millions of dollars.

We only have to do rabies every three years and even that is ioo often especially after the dog has had a couple of shots.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:06 am

Neil wrote:No, Ezzy, the Ivermec that I use is injectable labeled for swine and cattle, but it is the active ingredient in Frontline, so the drug is approved, it is just the vet lobby controlling how it is sold.

Most of the big city people that I know that take their dog in for their annual rabies and health check end up with a $300.00 bill.

Over the last 60 years, both as a profession and for recreation, I have spent thousands of days afield, I have encountered exactly one rabid animal. That was a nearly dead skunk of no threat. I believe in using the rabies vaccine, but when it is labeled for 5 years, it is nonsense to give it annually.

The vet lobby has nothing to do with it or at least didn't when I was involved. The manufacturer has not done the testing necessary to get it approved for dogs so it can not be on the label till that is done and approved. I know Frontline is approved but that is not what you and I are using. The problem is that there is so many tests required the manufacturer will never recover the huge amount of money spent in doing the test for minor species so no one does it. Testing costs usually amount to millions of dollars.

We only have to do rabies every three years and even that is too often especially after the dog has had a couple of shots but with something like rabies it is a heck of a lot better to be safe than sorry. My problem stems from what the counties collect as a tax for animal owners that is collected in many states when you pay for the shots.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:16 am

I believe Neil just conflated Frontline (for fleas and ticks) with Heartgard (which contains Ivermectin for heart worms).

Simple mistake.

As to rabies shots, if there were an inexpensive and legal way to do due blood titers to confirm rabid antibodies that would be my preference, but in the current state of things I'd prefer slight over-vaccination against rabies to making dogs vectors in such a dangerous and deadly disease. Not a close call.

Bill

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:40 am

Eric wrote:
dog dr wrote: As always, i could be wrong, but i have never seen a rabies vaccine with a 5 yr duration of immunity on the label.
And what the label says doesn't match current science (look up "Rabies Challenge".
This research has shown that a rabies vaccination is good for at least 5 years and probably much longer (maybe lifetime).

Correct, IF you get a proper immune response to the vaccine, which we never know. and Neil said it was "labeled" for 5 yrs.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:46 am

dog dr wrote:
Eric wrote:
dog dr wrote: As always, i could be wrong, but i have never seen a rabies vaccine with a 5 yr duration of immunity on the label.
And what the label says doesn't match current science (look up "Rabies Challenge".
This research has shown that a rabies vaccination is good for at least 5 years and probably much longer (maybe lifetime).
Correct, IF you get a proper immune response to the vaccine, which we never know. and Neil said it was "labeled" for 5 yrs.

Dog dr, is it correct that some dogs don't produce antibodies (or that the antibodies are not always sustained) even after getting a rabies shot?

Do you think doing titers (assuming the cost could be reduced through improved technologies) would be a reasonable option in the future, or just too cumbersome?

Bill

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:55 am

within any population of vaccinates, animal or human, you will have a very small segment of that population that will not respond to the vaccine appropriately. AND, what I have been told in regards to cattle and particularly swine vaccines (so I would have to imagine it would be similar across all species) is that a high titer level does NOT ensure protective immunity. Im not sure why, but thats what the immunologists say. So measuring titers may not be the answer in the form we have today. regardless, its gonna be cumbersome because your gonna have to pull blood and send it off to be tested.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:27 pm

Dog Dr,

You took a lot of things out of context, skipped more, and childlessly took advantage of my obvious error. You know full well I meant Heartguard.

I have a lot of respect for you personally, and most in your profession, I believe you are underpaid as a whole. I have paid some large vet bills without complaint. I understand your protecting your profession, it is a noble one.

But please answer these questions:

Is it necessary to vaccinate for rabies annually?

Do they offer continuing education for office management, on how to be more profitable?

Do the vets write the state dog health requirements?

Do you think it possible that some of my accusations are partially true?

I took a pup in for a pre-flight health cert, they gave him a shot and charged me $120.00. They did not do a fecal, nor take his temperature, did not check his heart, eyes, ears, gums, throat, nor his skeleton structure. As I do those things often, I knew he was healthy, they didn't.

Sorry I offended you, but we are over vaccinating our dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:44 pm

Sorry I offended you, but we are over vaccinating our dogs.

I think you are right but do not find any valid connection between what you think and the accusations you made about the veterinary profession. You are doing just what I said other are doing when you make accusations instead of posting your opinion so we all can discuss it.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:54 pm

dog dr wrote:within any population of vaccinates, animal or human, you will have a very small segment of that population that will not respond to the vaccine appropriately. AND, what I have been told in regards to cattle and particularly swine vaccines (so I would have to imagine it would be similar across all species) is that a high titer level does NOT ensure protective immunity. Im not sure why, but thats what the immunologists say. So measuring titers may not be the answer in the form we have today. regardless, its gonna be cumbersome because your gonna have to pull blood and send it off to be tested.

It is curious that a high titer level isn't proof of immunity. Hmm. I wish we had an immunologist to explain why.

Bill

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Sorry I offended you, but we are over vaccinating our dogs.
I think you are right but do not find any valid connection between what you think and the accusations you made about the veterinary profession. You are doing just what I said other are doing when you make accusations instead of posting your opinion so we all can discuss it.

And for that I apologize.

Collins1527 · Post by **Collins1527** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:09 pm

If your vet bills are high go to vet school and do all your own stuff.

Thanks. Matt Collins

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:06 pm

Collins1527 wrote:If your vet bills are high go to vet school and do all your own stuff.

Thanks. Matt Collins

I don't need to go to vet school to perform 90% of the care my dogs need, And I think vets should be paid very well for that other 10%. It is paying for things I can easily do myself that have been made unlawful by the vets that I question. Chiefly annual rabies.

Collins1527 · Post by **Collins1527** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:11 pm

So vets do 10% of things you can't do and charge 80% more, that will be fine with me. Need a stick taken out of your dogs chest cavity that will be $10,000 thank you. Look you can give a shot , ok great your 90% a vet.

vicia213 · Post by **vicia213** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:33 pm

A month ago, took our Springer into the vet.....$10.50 to express anal glands (ongoing issue) $24.00 for heartworm test and $10.00 for an "office visit" which included clipping his nails, and looking him over good.
He is watching a lump on his chest wall, moves around and soft, and says he needs his teeth cleaned in the back, and will answer any and every question you have.
I will pay that anyday--he does rabies every two years

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:42 pm

Well the good result is that Dog Dr started posting again. I've missed him.
Neil isn't anti vets ; he just wishes like a lot of us that he could give a few more vaccinations than is presently allowed.Never going to happen though as some folks would say they gave the shots when they didn't ,and we'd have a big rabies problem again.

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:46 pm

Why is it illegal in some states to vaccinate your own dogs for rabies? In my state it was fine a few years ago now it is not.

Collins1527 · Post by **Collins1527** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:58 pm

I wish I could go to walmart and buy all my kids' vaccines as well. But we can't. I have to pay a well educated dr with high college debt to stab him in the leg. You know how annoying it is hearing people bitch about how much it is to take the dog to the vet? Do you think it's free to go to college for 8 to 10 years? And after that only make 65 to 80 k? You guys act like it's an arm and leg to go. Try paying the 2500 a month for the loan after vet school.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:08 pm

Collins1527 wrote:So vets do 10% of things you can't do and charge 80% more, that will be fine with me. Need a stick taken out of your dogs chest cavity that will be $10,000 thank you. Look you can give a shot , ok great your 90% a vet.

Your math is a little foggy. But I am not trying to dissuade anyone from going to their vet, I do not want to be forced by law to do those things I can do myself, particularly those that I believe are unneeded.

I related the example of the non-health check on my pup because the justification most vets give for wanting to give shots is to be sure they are given and they will do a wellness exam.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:14 pm

Collins1527 wrote:I wish I could go to walmart and buy all my kids' vaccines as well. But we can't. I have to pay a well educated dr with high college debt to stab him in the leg. You know how annoying it is hearing people bitch about how much it is to take the dog to the vet? Do you think it's free to go to college for 8 to 10 years? And after that only make 65 to 80 k? You guys act like it's an arm and leg to go. Try paying the 2500 a month for the loan after vet school.

Dogs are not people.

If vets have to force us to do unneeded procedures, i. e. annual rabies, to make money, they need a different business model.

Collins1527 · Post by **Collins1527** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:22 pm

Most people don't understand that for in order for a vaccine to even be effective the animal needs to be in good health. Subtle changes that indicate illness may not be picked up by an average joe. I guarantee most people who give vaccines at home don't even take a rectal temperature before doing so. A sick animal may not even mount an effective immune response to a vaccine, making it pointless to even give it. Rabies vaccines (or any vaccine for that matter) are regulated by the FDA I believe, so vets are just going by the rules they are given --not trying to screw everyone out of their hard earned money. They have bills to pay too so yes they are going to charge you for their time and skills.

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:28 pm

Thats prolly why most people take there dogs to the vet. There are plenty of household pets in the world to keep the vets in business.
For the guys who really know dogs and have multiple dogs, it doesnt make sense to take them all to the vet for a yearly visit. It costs to much compared to what you can save doing it yourself.

Collins1527 · Post by **Collins1527** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Everything is unneeded until you get bit by a dog with rabies, then the "bleep" hits the wall... what is unneeded is the comment on the coffee at McDonald's that says "coffee is hot".. my wife paid over 600 bucks for her rabies vaccinations and has to have titers drawn every 5 years which is about another 200. You guys will send your dog to to a trainer for $500 to $700 a month and are pumped about it but when you have to pay $100 in 3 years omg that's high way robbery . I just laughed a little. Ha

zrp · Post by **zrp** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:52 pm

But please answer these questions:

Is it necessary to vaccinate for rabies annually?

Arkansas has approved a three year vaccine for adult dogs. Do they have a protective titer beyond that? Probably. When you look at risk vs benefit for your pet and the benefit is preventing a disease that's 100% fatal, is it worth the risk? Not for mine.

Do they offer continuing education for office management, on how to be more profitable?

Some conferences do have practice management sessions discussing various topics including personnel, client relations and profitability. Most states limit the number of CE hours spent on these topics. Arkansas, I believe, caps it at a max of 4 hrs per year. Those seminars, by the way, exist for every type of business there is.

Do the vets write the state dog health requirements?

Technically no. But would you prefer that the politicians and lawyers didn't consult us?

Do you think it possible that some of my accusations are partially true?

I think you are very informed. However, some of these things, you are over thinking. Also, people like you trashing vaccines instead of giving them as well as improper handling of vaccines ( ie not refrigerating etc) are the reasons they are required to be administered by a vet.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:53 pm

In many states, Arkansas for example, rabies must be given annually, that means every year. It is state law, not the FDA. I think that unreasonable.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:58 pm

Collins1527 wrote:Most people don't understand that for in order for a vaccine to even be effective the animal needs to be in good health. Subtle changes that indicate illness may not be picked up by an average joe. I guarantee most people who give vaccines at home don't even take a rectal temperature before doing so. A sick animal may not even mount an effective immune response to a vaccine, making it pointless to even give it. Rabies vaccines (or any vaccine for that matter) are regulated by the FDA I believe, so vets are just going by the rules they are given --not trying to screw everyone out of their hard earned money. They have bills to pay too so yes they are going to charge you for their time and skills.

You are right but then neither does my vet take their temp This a good argument I guess but I to get concerned when you walk in and there are three girls behind the counter and a nice big facility with 6 vets working in th3 busin4ess and they cHARGE OVER TWICE THAT MY SMALL TOWN VET 12 MILES SOUTH OF HERE. But then the real crunch came two years ago when the older vet retired and the five young vets added another one and they built a new brick building and the prices almost doubled again. One visit costs as much as I spent annually for my kennel a few years ago and I had 15 to thirty dogs most of the time.

I appreciate a good vet an awful lot but I do think you find a lot of the younger set think we should pay for their schooling with each visit. And they won't make house calls.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:02 pm

Neil wrote:In many states, Arkansas for example, rabies must be given annually, that means every year. It is state law, not the FDA. I think that unreasonable.

Neil it is politics. Your county wants it tjat way so they can collect as much tax as possible. Not the vets fault just plain old politics. Cost three times as much if your dog is intact instead of neutered.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:18 pm

Ezzy,

You are right, I checked, the state did change to first rabies shot at 4 months, booster 12 months later, then every 3 years, if it is an approved 3 year vaccine. My county still requires the shots annually. Some of the ways we are behind the times are better than others.

I have not explained myself very well, thanks for interpreting. I would like to let this go now, please.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:27 pm

Neil wrote:Ezzy,

You are right, I checked, the state did change to first rabies shot at 4 months, booster 12 months later, then every 3 years, if it is an approved 3 year vaccine. My county still requires the shots annually. Some of the ways we are behind the times are better than others.

I have not explained myself very well, thanks for interpreting. I would like to let this go now, please.

You got it.