tug o war

[ezzy333]

I am yet to hear a pro advise anyone to do things that later can cause problems. And note, I said can and not does.

I took a 7 month old springer on a live game shoot day for the first time never having seen a bird before never mind a gun .
But I have also advised many with an 18 month old to wait till next season

Robert, as you well know when to take a pup hunting is determined by the pup and is an individual thing and has nothing to do with a training procedure.

[ezzy333]

Teaching a puppy to give is the opposite of creating a problem. Failing to train puppies to give is failing to train.

Training a puppy under age-approprite levels of stress, which includes training to "give" under tug conditions, leads to outstanding results. Puppies are always learning. If one is not training, one is failing to train. Capitalizing on play is a great thing. Tug is NOT the only way to teach the concept to young pups, but it is ONE way that complements future training.

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

I will accept this when I see the pros of today do it and see what it produces. But sorry, I just am having problems due to never hearing it, seeing it, or even reading about it from anyone but someone that says he a lot of well trained dogs that he credits tug of war as a primary training method and ridicules anyone that doesn't agree..

[polmaise]

I am yet to hear a pro advise anyone to do things that later can cause problems. And note, I said can and not does.

I took a 7 month old springer on a live game shoot day for the first time never having seen a bird before never mind a gun .
But I have also advised many with an 18 month old to wait till next season

Robert, as you well know when to take a pup hunting is determined by the pup and is an individual thing and has nothing to do with a training procedure.

Exactly ,but I wouldn't advise it to the masses

[ezzy333]

I took a 7 month old springer on a live game shoot day for the first time never having seen a bird before never mind a gun .
But I have also advised many with an 18 month old to wait till next season

Robert, as you well know when to take a pup hunting is determined by the pup and is an individual thing and has nothing to do with a training procedure.

Exactly ,but I wouldn't advise it to the masses

I AGREE

[Spy Car]

I will accept this when I see the pros of today do it and see what it produces. But sorry, I just am having problems due to never hearing it, seeing it, or even reading about it from anyone but someone that says he a lot of well trained dogs that he credits tug of war as a primary training method and ridicules anyone that doesn't agree..

So to re-cap. You were for it, then you were against it, then you were "not taking sides", and now you're against it? Am I getting that correctly?

And (yet again) you mis-characterize. I never said I used tug as THE PRIMARY TRAINING METHOD (please read more carefully), I said a puppy learning to "give" during a tug match is learning something that complements further training. Which is the case.

I haven't ridiculed anyone. I disagree on the methods, and have stated the reasons for my disagreements. Please don't confabulate.

Bill

[shags]

Teaching a puppy to give is the opposite of creating a problem. Failing to train puppies to give is failing to train.

Training a puppy under age-approprite levels of stress, which includes training to "give" under tug conditions, leads to outstanding results. Puppies are always learning. If one is not training, one is failing to train. Capitalizing on play is a great thing. Tug is NOT the only way to teach the concept to young pups, but it is ONE way that complements future training.

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

I will accept this when I see the pros of today do it and see what it produces. But sorry, I just am having problems due to never hearing it, seeing it, or even reading about it from anyone but someone that says he a lot of well trained dogs that he credits tug of war as a primary training method and ridicules anyone that doesn't agree..

Where did Bill say playing tug is a primary training method, and where did he ridicule anyone? He said he uses a game of tug as an opportunity to train a give command and to bond with a pup. He disagrees with those who say nothing good comes of playing tug, just as they disagree with us that do. No ridicule, just differences.

Mistakes by 'idiots' keep pros in business. They should be grateful to us, if we weren't so stupid how would they make the truck payment?

[Spy Car]

Another good thing to do with a young pup is to get a really great chew, like a bully stick, they they will just love. And then you hand it to them saying "take" (or whatever), let them just start to enjoy it, say "give" and remove, give praise (take a beat) and return the chew with a "take" and more praise, and let them enjoy the rewards.

Every little opportunity in the day can be a training lesson. Not THE PRIMARY WAY, but the little interactions add up.

Bill

[polmaise]

Another good thing to do with a young pup is to get a really great chew, like a bully stick, they they will just love. And then you hand it to them saying "take" (or whatever), let them just start to enjoy it, say "give" and remove, give praise (take a beat) and return the chew with a "take" and more praise, and let them enjoy the rewards.

Every little opportunity in the day can be a training lesson. Not THE PRIMARY WAY, but the little interactions add up.

Bill

Yea , well full circle comes retrieving and cut any thing you want to make it look like it ain't when it is , but I just chuck something and let the dog get it ,then when it comes back with it , we do it it again ...I reckon it's fun ?....chew on that .

[Spy Car]

Another good thing to do with a young pup is to get a really great chew, like a bully stick, they they will just love. And then you hand it to them saying "take" (or whatever), let them just start to enjoy it, say "give" and remove, give praise (take a beat) and return the chew with a "take" and more praise, and let them enjoy the rewards.

Every little opportunity in the day can be a training lesson. Not THE PRIMARY WAY, but the little interactions add up.

Bill

Yea , well full circle comes retrieving and cut any thing you want to make it look like it ain't when it is , but I just chuck something and let the dog get it ,then when it comes back with it , we do it it again ...I reckon it's fun ?....chew on that .

Not sure I'm fully taking your point (being separated by a common language), but tossing a toy is good fun that is a great complement to further training. I could use a malt myself.

Bill

[AlPastor]

I think that a lot of people, including many pros, are way too conservative. Dogs, like children, can learn through play.

Two of the things I've learned in life are: If you were a pro, you'd be darn conservative too. We work with enough problems in dogs; that's why they're sent to us.

Second, people are idiots. If you cautiously tell them it's OK to do something, you can be sure they'll carry it to the extreme and then blame you.

I'm not sure we disagree. Protecting idiots from themselves causes absolutism and extreme conservatism.

[polmaise]

Protecting idiots from themselves causes absolutism and extreme conservatism.

And requires a lot more than dialogue :roll:

[Spy Car]

A wise man once said, a man whose clients are idiots, has idiots as clients

Bill

[Soarer31]

I've used tug o war play training for pups for this....

.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQuPLfMlhY

[s223196]

well I do not play tug with her but I havent stopped my son, but she is so wild he doesnt play with her alot. she will fetch a toy and I put my hand over her nose and put my fingers in her mouth to make her let go. Is there a better way?

[Timewise65]

I will accept this when I see the pros of today do it and see what it produces. But sorry, I just am having problems due to never hearing it, seeing it, or even reading about it from anyone but someone that says he a lot of well trained dogs that he credits tug of war as a primary training method and ridicules anyone that doesn't agree..

So to re-cap. You were for it, then you were against it, then you were "not taking sides", and now you're against it? Am I getting that correctly?

And (yet again) you mis-characterize. I never said I used tug as THE PRIMARY TRAINING METHOD (please read more carefully), I said a puppy learning to "give" during a tug match is learning something that complements further training. Which is the case.

I haven't ridiculed anyone. I disagree on the methods, and have stated the reasons for my disagreements. Please don't confabulate.

Bill

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION!

[Spy Car]

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION!

You've been clear, but YELLING doesn't make things that are fallacious any more true. When a puppy learns to stop a game of tug and to "give" up the tug, this behavior complements future training. Now you have heard it. Whether you listen (or not) is up to you.

Bill

[Spy Car]

well I do not play tug with her but I havent stopped my son, but she is so wild he doesnt play with her alot. she will fetch a toy and I put my hand over her nose and put my fingers in her mouth to make her let go. Is there a better way?

I'll PM you.

Bill

[Timewise65]

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION![/quote]

I think some have a 'hearing problem'.....I second this comment....very well said. Dog people have been dreaming up new/better techniques for training dogs since time began. Over time only the good techniques stand the test of time. Bet, tug-of-war will never be one of the methods that survive, except for maybe one guy?

[Neil]

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION!

I think some have a 'hearing problem'.....I second this comment....very well said. Dog people have been dreaming up new/better techniques for training dogs since time began. Over time only the good techniques stand the test of time. Bet, tug-of-war will never be one of the methods that survive, except for maybe one guy? [/quote]

There are surely more than one guy. I don't use it to train, but have never seen any harm in doing it.

[shags]

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION!

Holy moly, calm down.
Can you not comprehend that Bill is merely using a playtime activity to introduce or reinforce a simple command? He is not setting up tug 'o war as a training exercise in and of itself. How much more clearly can he express it?

[Spy Car]

LET ME BE CLEAR, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IT. I HAVE WORKED WITH MANY PRO'S WHO TRAIN FIELD TRIAL RETRIEVERS AND IN THOSE 30 YEARS, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVERY HAD ANYONE SUGGEST 'TUG A WAR' AS A TRIED AND TRUE TRAINING TECHNIQUE. END OF MY DISCUSSION!

Holy moly, calm down.
Can you not comprehend that Bill is merely using a playtime activity to introduce or reinforce a simple command? He is not setting up tug 'o war as a training exercise in and of itself. How much more clearly can he express it?

Yea, like I also say "whoa!" every single time I feed my Vizsla. He gets the most delicious meals imaginable: beef, elk, bison, goat, lamb, pork, chicken, oily fish, ostrich, green tripe, or organs might be in the mix. He loves his meals. The drool positively flows.

But he get a "whoa" every single time, since Day One at eight-weeks. It was a lesson learned quickly, that is reinforced daily under the stress of having to pause before eating a very desirable meal.

Such things reinforce other training, a statement I'm sure Mr Yelling-man will manage to misconstrue

Bill

[shags]

No offense Bill, but a *setter* pup would have learned to whoa like that after maybe two meals

[Spy Car]

No offense Bill, but a *setter* pup would have learned to whoa like that after maybe two meals

That's actually about how many it took for the Vizsla as a puppy. The rest is reinforcement.

It just shows how easy it is to condition desired behaviors.

Bill

[Sharon]

I don't know about retrieving breeds , but tug- of -war is a great training tool for a JRT. He learns to give , to sit and wait until I'm ready, he learns to leave it there when told . Useful tool.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

My Gundogs also compete in Agility Trials and their reward at the end of a "clean" run is a tug toy. They still retrieve feather and fur to hand and its never been a problem. I think its more of a wives tale than actual experience.

[polmaise]

My Gundogs also compete in Agility Trials and their reward at the end of a "clean" run is a tug toy. They still retrieve feather and fur to hand and its never been a problem. I think its more of a wives tale than actual experience.

Mine work in the shooting field and they get a tennis ball if they do the process correctly,and they still retrieve fur and feather to hand . Is that not 'Operant conditioning' ? just like them dolphins lol

[ezzy333]

I think there might be a difference at what age and the point in their training where it takes place.

[Swampbilly]

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

There's no such thing as "needless ear pinching" , you're pressure conditioning the dog whether it knows how to "give" or has "the basics" or not.
Big difference in a dog FETCHING because it understands pressure,.and one who does out of fear of getting it's ear pinched.
Also, we don't "needlessly" pinch an ear teaching DROP (or "give), in fact, there's no pressure at all.
In short-
Watcha' talkin' ' bout?

[Spy Car]

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

There's no such thing as "needless ear pinching" , you're pressure conditioning the dog whether it knows how to "give" or has "the basics" or not.
Big difference in a dog FETCHING because it understands pressure,.and one who does out of fear of getting it's ear pinched.
Also, we don't "needlessly" pinch an ear teaching DROP (or "give), in fact, there's no pressure at all.
In short-
Watcha' talkin' ' bout?

Or one can nuture a natural retrieve from week one with the puppy. The infliction of pain is not the only way to train a dog, as top trainers who employ operant conditioning methods are all aware is best way to train all animals, dogs included.

Bill

[crackerd]

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

There's no such thing as "needless ear pinching" , you're pressure conditioning the dog whether it knows how to "give" or has "the basics" or not.
Big difference in a dog FETCHING because it understands pressure,.and one who does out of fear of getting it's ear pinched.
Also, we don't "needlessly" pinch an ear teaching DROP (or "give), in fact, there's no pressure at all.
In short-
Watcha' talkin' ' bout?

Or one can nuture a natural retrieve from week one with the puppy. The infliction of pain is not the only way to train a dog, as top trainers who employ operant conditioning methods are all aware is best way to train all animals, dogs included.

Bill

Lord help us, Swamp, he's still at it, equivocating away. Even turned his benevolent blather point-blank on Gonehuntin' now: http://www.versatiledogs.com/forum/view ... 5&start=15

MG

[mnaj_springer]

A puppy that will "give," is set up to be a great dog. Not training a puppy the basics just leads to a lot of needless ear-pinching later on. Not the smart play.

Bill

There's no such thing as "needless ear pinching" , you're pressure conditioning the dog whether it knows how to "give" or has "the basics" or not.
Big difference in a dog FETCHING because it understands pressure,.and one who does out of fear of getting it's ear pinched.
Also, we don't "needlessly" pinch an ear teaching DROP (or "give), in fact, there's no pressure at all.
In short-
Watcha' talkin' ' bout?

Or one can nuture a natural retrieve from week one with the puppy. The infliction of pain is not the only way to train a dog, as top trainers who employ operant conditioning methods are all aware is best way to train all animals, dogs included.

Bill

You may be confused about operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is a learning process that causes change in behavior due to consequences. That includes positive reinforcement (rewards/treats), negative reinforcement (ear pinch), positive punishment, and negative punishment. Force fetch and collar conditioning fall under this as well.

Bill, it seems in general you need to work on speaking your "truth" with a small "t," rather than speaking the Truth with a big "T."

I don't think doing nothing until it's time to FF is a good idea, but it doesn't seem others are suggesting that either. Encourage the natural retrieve and then teach the specifics later in FF. I know with my current spaniel, FF helped us create a stronger bond, and a clearer understanding of each other.

[Spy Car]

You may be confused about operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is a learning process that causes change in behavior due to consequences. That includes positive reinforcement (rewards/treats), negative reinforcement (ear pinch), positive punishment, and negative punishment. Force fetch and collar conditioning fall under this as well.

Bill, it seems in general you need to work on speaking your "truth" with a small "t," rather than speaking the Truth with a big "T."

And smart trainers know that only relying on pain and negative reinforcement is the least effective method of training. Only gun-dog folks seem not to have gotten the memo. Every other professional trainer working with animals (dog included) knows the balance for training should lean heavily towards positive reinforcement. That seems to be lost on many.

Bill

[ezzy333]

You may be confused about operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is a learning process that causes change in behavior due to consequences. That includes positive reinforcement (rewards/treats), negative reinforcement (ear pinch), positive punishment, and negative punishment. Force fetch and collar conditioning fall under this as well.

Bill, it seems in general you need to work on speaking your "truth" with a small "t," rather than speaking the Truth with a big "T."

And smart trainers know that only relying on pain and negative reinforcement is the least effective method of training. Only gun-dog folks seem not to have gotten the memo. Every other professional trainer working with animals (dog included) knows the balance for training should lean heavily towards positive reinforcement. That seems to be lost on many.

Bill

We have known for years that somewhere near 70% positive and 30% negative seems to work best and quickest. The biggest difference is that some think any negative is bad for a dog. Those same people have reared their kids the same way and we are seeing the consequences of that everyday. There are times when I don't agree with someone else's methods but I have learned to keep quiet till I see what their method produces. Many times it works very well so I think the best approach is to tell people how I do it without telling them their methods are bad, because often they aren't bad, just different. And one of the real benefits of listening and watching is you learn something and others think more highly of you.

[Swampbilly]

Lord help us, Swamp, he's still at it, equivocating away. Even turned his benevolent blather point-blank on Gonehuntin' now: http://www.versatiledogs.com/forum/view ... 5&start=15

MG

No doubt in my mind M.G., it's going to take a "not of this world" being to ... (1), enlighten our Spy friend, and (2), decipher some of his posts
Lots of regurgitation on Operant Conditioning, yet fails to understand that that darned dreaded FF' actually employs it, both positive/ neg. re- enfcmnt, along with doses of indirect pressure.
Even more amusing is the mindset that Positive Re-enforcement offers up no "negative vibes" , or any kind of pressure, seems it's ALL Sunshine and Butterflies every day in the training field, dog always does what it's asked to do because it "likes" it's owner.

[Neil]

Folks,

It would really help to understand your positions if you would either use communally understood terms or define your useable.

Negative reinforcement is not punishment, but the removal of something from the situation.

Positive reinforcement is not always a reward, but the addition of something.

Think simple math, plus and minus.

Here is a pretty good tutorial on it:

http://psychology.about.com/od/operantc ... cement.htm

And in truth operant conditioning has little to do with playing the game tug of war.

[mnaj_springer]

Folks,

It would really help to understand your positions if you would either use communally understood terms or define your useable.

Negative reinforcement is not punishment, but the removal of something from the situation.

Positive reinforcement is not always a reward, but the addition of something.

Think simple math, plus and minus.

Here is a pretty good tutorial on it:

http://psychology.about.com/od/operantc ... cement.htm

And in truth operant conditioning has little to do with playing the game tug of war.

Neil, I would add that reinforcement results in the increase of a particular behavior and punishment results in a decrease in a particular behavior. That's why I referred to the ear pinch when I said negative reinforcement (grabbing the dowel results in the stimulus being removed, the behavior of grabbing the dowel increases, hence negative reinforcement).

I have a degree in psychology, and trust me, the principles of conditioning were covered ad nauseam.

[Sharon]

We have known for years that somewhere near 70% positive and 30% negative seems to work best and quickest. The biggest difference is that some think any negative is bad for a dog. Those same people have reared their kids the same way and we are seeing the consequences of that everyday. There are times when I don't agree with someone else's methods but I have learned to keep quiet till I see what their method produces. Many times it works very well so I think the best approach is to tell people how I do it without telling them their methods are bad, because often they aren't bad, just different. And one of the real benefits of listening and watching is you learn something and others think more highly of you.

.....................................

So well said.

[polmaise]

I have a degree in psychology, and trust me, the principles of conditioning were covered ad nauseam.

Only if one is exhausted by ones own understanding.
I have a certificate for 25m breast stroke
There can be a winner in tug of war,often the one that releases the restraint then applies the 'strain' by digging in at the right moment with sustained pressure ,how the mighty will fall,or win,or succeed. Operantly condition a dog to not piss on a post that another dog has been before is annoyingly frustrating for a dog trainer.
..
It shouldn't be about pull, more push
Reckon the psycho's will pull that to shreds

[Neil]

Folks,

It would really help to understand your positions if you would either use communally understood terms or define your useable.

Negative reinforcement is not punishment, but the removal of something from the situation.

Positive reinforcement is not always a reward, but the addition of something.

Think simple math, plus and minus.

Here is a pretty good tutorial on it:

http://psychology.about.com/od/operantc ... cement.htm

And in truth operant conditioning has little to do with playing the game tug of war.

Neil, I would add that reinforcement results in the increase of a particular behavior and punishment results in a decrease in a particular behavior. That's why I referred to the ear pinch when I said negative reinforcement (grabbing the dowel results in the stimulus being removed, the behavior of grabbing the dowel increases, hence negative reinforcement).

I have a degree in psychology, and trust me, the principles of conditioning were covered ad nauseam.

While it just hinders communication here, I know many college psychology professors that don't fully understand, I have even seen it misrepresented in text books. And trust me, I met and heard Dr. Skinner lecture, yes I am that old. And he would consider an ear pinch positive reinforcement, stopping the pinch is negative reinforcement.

[mnaj_springer]

Neil, maybe I'm misreading your last comment, but the ear pinch in, and of itself, is not reinforcement (positive or negative). The ear pinch is simply a stimulus. When the dog increases the grabbing behavior to remove the stimulus, that's negative reinforcement. Maybe you misunderstood Burrhus.

You may know some professors, but I didn't pay as much as I did for Mr. Joe Schmoe. My professors were all highly touted and nationally recognized for their work, so much so that one consulted the military regarding personality profiles of foreign leaders, and another was a co-author to college textbooks used across the country. I think they have operant conditioning figured out.

[polmaise]

Some of those that 'Tug at war' and philosophy the terms of it are often very educated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc

[Neil]

I have had and won this same argument with Harvard professors, they capitulated by saying terms are not static, language changes, and Skinner does not own a copyright on operate conditioning. You are referencing words I never heard spoken by Dr. Skinner.

How about we agree to speak plainly and just use punishment and reward? As a favor, please?

[Neil]

Some of those that 'Tug at war' and philosophy the terms of it are often very educated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc

You win.

[polmaise]

I wasn't after a contest Neil
merely an understanding . lol
atb Robert

[polmaise]

Don't You dare agree Sharon!!!!!! that will spoil the party

[Sharon]

LOL

[Spy Car]

Some of those that 'Tug at war' and philosophy the terms of it are often very educated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc

I was thinking of a different movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE

Bill

[polmaise]

Yea, well that one can take a different twist :roll:

[birddogger]

FWIW, I do not play tug of war with my dogs. It may do no harm with most dogs but I just don't see anything positive or reasoning to do it. There are plenty of other ways to play/bond with the pup without causing potential problems down the road, JMO.

Charlie

[polmaise]

I reckon it's a problem for some and not for others .
Played that game for them that don't want to ,and the same game with different rules for those that want to.
Playing games with their head is more about training them really