dog turning aggressive

[deke]

Im trying to figure out what is going on with my 5 year old lab, I have some thoughts but would like to hear what some of you who have gone through a similar situation before think.


He has gone his entire life being the nicest dog I personally have ever been around, never gotten in a fight, never even growled or barked. Until recently, about 6 months ago we were playing fetch with him and a puppy was there ( 8 months). Everything was going good until the puppy started trying to rip the bouy from Deke's mouth, which normally isnt a problem, he just shrugs it off and keeps going like he has done a thousand times before. The pup went for the bouy and instead got Deke's ear in his mouth and bit down, hard enough to break skin. Deke dropped the bouy and bit the pup on the face, then picked up the bouy and continued his retrieve. I smacked him , and threw him in his kennel. Fast forward a few months, and we are sitting around the pool and the he is laying out in the lawn, when another buddy of mine shows up with his pup, different pup than last time. The pup see's deke sleeping in the yard and runs over to him trying to get him to play ( these two have been around each other since pup was born) The puppy starts jumping all over deke, and then starts licking his face and then boom, no warning deke bites that pup in the face, not hard and not a fight, just a quick bite on the face. Pup runs away barking/ crying to my buddy. This years trip to SD, 4 dogs all in a house, and by day two he had gotten in a fight with two of the three others. First was as soon as we got there, a gsp with a serious attitude issue started the fight right as deke walked through the door, the next one was the same pup he had bitten before ( the second one), kind of the same thing as the first time, Deke was sleeping on the couch and the pup was biting/licking his face trying to get him to play. The strangest ones happened once we got home, with my other dog, who he has been around since we brought him home, and they have never had any issues. I let deke lick some frosting off of a plate , and my other dog walked over to the plate to see if there was going to be any left, and as soon as he got close deke turned on him and let him have it. He didnt break skin, and i think there was alot more bark then bite to that little spat. Then last night we are sitting on the couch watching the football game, and deke is passed out on the floor, when my other dog walks up to him and sniffs him, And it was like a switch got flipped and Deke went after him, until the old dog(11 yrs old) was hiding in the corner howling. At this point i lost it, and me and deke had a come to jesus meeting, for a few minutes. I am super confused about how to proceed with him, like i said up until 6 months ago he was just a big sweetie, and then something flipped, im not sure if its just him getting older or what is happening. All of the fights have been with unclipped males, and all were dogs he has been around hundreds of times. Any thoughts?

[shags]

Have his thyroid levels checked. Get the full panel including antibodies, don't settle for just T4 or TSH. Keep in mind that low normal levels could cause problems, so look for optimal in the mid to high normal ranges. TSH would be the opposite, you want mid to low.
Google "Jean Dodds thyroid" and find her article about behavioral changes in adult dogs.

[shags]

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/JR_Articles/do ... havior.htm

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/JR_Articles/do ... hanges.htm

[Cicada]

Not that it should matter but is he intact or clipped I have seen neutered males get a bit tired of being at the bottom of the pecking order.

Good luck with this sounds like a tough one

Grant

[deke]

Not that it should matter but is he intact or clipped I have seen neutered males get a bit tired of being at the bottom of the pecking order.

Good luck with this sounds like a tough one

Grant

He is intact. Along with all the dogs that he has had issues with

[mnaj_springer]

I can't speak to this much without seeing the events, but there are some cases in which I let my dogs "sort things out." But I referee the action. Those moments generally are: when another dog is trying to steal a retrieve and when their sick of the pestering of another dog. Usually it goes like this-- lip curl, growl, bark/yip, a quick/precise snap, and done. It usually only happens once. If it goes beyond that I step in.

Good luck.

[deke]

I can't speak to this much without seeing the events, but there are some cases in which I let my dogs "sort things out." But I referee the action. Those moments generally are: when another dog is trying to steal a retrieve and when their sick of the pestering of another dog. Usually it goes like this-- lip curl, growl, bark/yip, a quick/precise snap, and done. It usually only happens once. If it goes beyond that I step in.

Good luck.

That is basically what is happening with my dog, quick and precise, no blood or any wounds. Besides the gsp, but that was him getting jumped by the gsp as he walked through the door.

[gonehuntin']

This is a post I did for someone else with an aggressive dog. His was different, the dog was aggressive to him. Try these same things with your dog and they may work.


I feel you have given him the mistaken idea that the house belongs to him. He guards you, he guards your mother. So, don't give him the right to do either. Get rid of his bed and keep him a kennel at night. Don't let him claim any area of the house as his own. A dog doesn't make house payments, you do. He has no rights other than those you give him.

These are the steps I would try with him.

1). De bolt him so the only safe area is at your side. Not his kennel, not his bed.
2). Keep him in a kennel whenever anyone visits you, especially children.
3). When someone knocks and he barks or growls, immediately command NO! and kennel him.
4). If he growls at another dog, command NO! and kennel him.
5). When you feed him, don't let him eat until commanded.
6). Don't let him do anything on his own; let him barge through doors, not come when called, etc.
7). It'll get worse as he ages, as it is now. Try not to let it progress.
. This is not fear biting; it's dominance. He's guarding you, his possessions and his home.
9). Contact the breeder and tell him this breeding is mentally flawed. He'll never admit he's had other complaints.
10) be careful. A dog like this will turn on you as fast as anyone else if he feels you are threatening his position.

That's all I got. I don't envy you one bit.

[deke]

This is a post I did for someone else with an aggressive dog. His was different, the dog was aggressive to him. Try these same things with your dog and they may work.


I feel you have given him the mistaken idea that the house belongs to him. He guards you, he guards your mother. So, don't give him the right to do either. Get rid of his bed and keep him a kennel at night. Don't let him claim any area of the house as his own. A dog doesn't make house payments, you do. He has no rights other than those you give him.

These are the steps I would try with him.

1). De bolt him so the only safe area is at your side. Not his kennel, not his bed.
2). Keep him in a kennel whenever anyone visits you, especially children.
3). When someone knocks and he barks or growls, immediately command NO! and kennel him.
4). If he growls at another dog, command NO! and kennel him.
5). When you feed him, don't let him eat until commanded.
6). Don't let him do anything on his own; let him barge through doors, not come when called, etc.
7). It'll get worse as he ages, as it is now. Try not to let it progress.
. This is not fear biting; it's dominance. He's guarding you, his possessions and his home.
9). Contact the breeder and tell him this breeding is mentally flawed. He'll never admit he's had other complaints.
10) be careful. A dog like this will turn on you as fast as anyone else if he feels you are threatening his position.

That's all I got. I don't envy you one bit.

Thank u for the list. I do most of this already, but I will start kenneling him at nights. Like I said he is a sweet dog and it is really out of his character. My cousins kids that live next door crawl all over him, kind of rethinking that though.

[seiowa]

I wouldn't do much. Sounds like pretty standard behavior for an adult in tact dog interacting with young pups (except your situations with older dogs).

Pups need to learn manners. Whenever my dogs have snapped, bit, charged, rolled, etc a dog for 1) Taking a toy, 2) encroaching on dinner time or 3) waking him up from a sleep or bothering while lying down, I let them be. No mentally sane dog will grip and shake a pup to death. Couple of warning snaps and its usually done. A 5 yr old could put a HURT on a dog <1 yr old if he wanted to. A couple of scratches or pin holes is nothing, its called bite inhibition. Your Deke isn't looking to kill or maim, he just wants some space.

Also, I wouldn't be punishing a dog for showing agression. That is how kids get bit. Let me explain:

Deke growls at a dog. You smack him and kennel him. He's fine for another couple months until he growls at another dog. You smack him, and kennel him. Pretty soon he doesn't learn "not to be grouchy" (dogs don't have that capability). He learns to NOT GROWL in front of you. So when the neighbors 5 year old comes over (or your niece or whoever), and pulls his ears or gets in his face, when NORMALLY a dog would growl, and you'd tell the kid to back off, Deke will sit there in silence fearing punishment for growling. Then when he absolutely can't take it anymore he will bite without warning. Dogs that get hit for growling/snapping are NOTORIOUS for becoming "Out-of-the-blue" or "No-warning" biters.

I agree, get his levels checked and a thorough physical. Including teeth. One of my dogs was a total sweetheart and over the course of about a couple weeks turned into an absolute b*tch. Turns out she had a cracked molar that was on the verge of abscessing so anyone/thing getting near her mouth or face or head set her off.

Practice resource guarding activities. When he is eating his food, walk up, throw a treat to the side, and when he goes for it pick up his bowl. After a couple minutes put it back down. Same with toys. If he has a bone/ball/etc, toss a treat to the side. When he goes for it, pick it up for a few seconds, and then put it back down. He will learn that there are higher value things in life than whatever he's got, and whenever something gets taken it is never permanent, this changing the "necessity" in his head to viciously guard what's his.

I know we all want to thump our dogs for acting like @ssholes or b*tches but trust me (if for nothing more than it looks bad/embarrassing on us as owners), I have seen MANY owners take a heavy handed approach at curbing dog agression, only to have that dog be "cured", but 2 years down the line it rips a neighbor boy's nose off "without warning". Dogs growling and snapping is a GOOD if not GREAT thing. It's dogs that learn to stifle their warnings that become truly, truly dangerous.


This dog is not dominant, he's not looking to turn on you, or anything else. In fact, dogs that guard viciously are often insecure. They live in constant paranoia that someone will steal from them and that they won't be big or bad enough to stop it. So they put on a showy display of flashing teeth and growls that sound straight from the depths of heck. If this dog didn't view you as a leader and wanted to turn on you, he would have done it already and you'd be missing a hand. Trust me, if a dog wanted to mess up another dog or human, he would know how to do it.

Don't waste the breeder's time complaining about a mentally unhinged dog and making him second guess his breeding program. You don't have a mentally unhinged or even a dangerous dog. It's a completely normal dog with some insecurity and guarding issues. More normal than you'd think (or owners would like to admit) for labs, especially intact ones.

Also, this will fall on deaf ears, but dominance/pack theory has been debunked in modern, domestic dogs: http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behav ... w_2009.pdf

and im certainly not saying you beat your dog, but agression being met with a smack or tossed in a kennel begs this question: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 141540.htm

I will probably be labelled soft, a leftie, animal rights activist or armchair psychiatrist for this post but I swear on my bank account this is the God's honest truth.

Alright, let my crowd stoning begin.

[Spy Car]

I wouldn't do much. Sounds like pretty standard behavior for an adult in tact dog interacting with young pups (except your situations with older dogs).

Pups need to learn manners. Whenever my dogs have snapped, bit, charged, rolled, etc a dog for 1) Taking a toy, 2) encroaching on dinner time or 3) waking him up from a sleep or bothering while lying down, I let them be. No mentally sane dog will grip and shake a pup to death. Couple of warning snaps and its usually done. A 5 yr old could put a HURT on a dog <1 yr old if he wanted to. A couple of scratches or pin holes is nothing, its called bite inhibition. Your Deke isn't looking to kill or maim, he just wants some space.

Also, I wouldn't be punishing a dog for showing agression. That is how kids get bit. Let me explain:

Deke growls at a dog. You smack him and kennel him. He's fine for another couple months until he growls at another dog. You smack him, and kennel him. Pretty soon he doesn't learn "not to be grouchy" (dogs don't have that capability). He learns to NOT GROWL in front of you. So when the neighbors 5 year old comes over (or your niece or whoever), and pulls his ears or gets in his face, when NORMALLY a dog would growl, and you'd tell the kid to back off, Deke will sit there in silence fearing punishment for growling. Then when he absolutely can't take it anymore he will bite without warning. Dogs that get hit for growling/snapping are NOTORIOUS for becoming "Out-of-the-blue" or "No-warning" biters.

I agree, get his levels checked and a thorough physical. Including teeth. One of my dogs was a total sweetheart and over the course of about a couple weeks turned into an absolute b*tch. Turns out she had a cracked molar that was on the verge of abscessing so anyone/thing getting near her mouth or face or head set her off.

Practice resource guarding activities. When he is eating his food, walk up, throw a treat to the side, and when he goes for it pick up his bowl. After a couple minutes put it back down. Same with toys. If he has a bone/ball/etc, toss a treat to the side. When he goes for it, pick it up for a few seconds, and then put it back down. He will learn that there are higher value things in life than whatever he's got, and whenever something gets taken it is never permanent, this changing the "necessity" in his head to viciously guard what's his.

I know we all want to thump our dogs for acting like @ssholes or b*tches but trust me (if for nothing more than it looks bad/embarrassing on us as owners), I have seen MANY owners take a heavy handed approach at curbing dog agression, only to have that dog be "cured", but 2 years down the line it rips a neighbor boy's nose off "without warning". Dogs growling and snapping is a GOOD if not GREAT thing. It's dogs that learn to stifle their warnings that become truly, truly dangerous.


This dog is not dominant, he's not looking to turn on you, or anything else. In fact, dogs that guard viciously are often insecure. They live in constant paranoia that someone will steal from them and that they won't be big or bad enough to stop it. So they put on a showy display of flashing teeth and growls that sound straight from the depths of heck. If this dog didn't view you as a leader and wanted to turn on you, he would have done it already and you'd be missing a hand. Trust me, if a dog wanted to mess up another dog or human, he would know how to do it.

Don't waste the breeder's time complaining about a mentally unhinged dog and making him second guess his breeding program. You don't have a mentally unhinged or even a dangerous dog. It's a completely normal dog with some insecurity and guarding issues. More normal than you'd think (or owners would like to admit) for labs, especially intact ones.

Also, this will fall on deaf ears, but dominance/pack theory has been debunked in modern, domestic dogs: http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behav ... w_2009.pdf

and im certainly not saying you beat your dog, but agression being met with a smack or tossed in a kennel begs this question: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 141540.htm

I will probably be labelled soft, a leftie, animal rights activist or armchair psychiatrist for this post but I swear on my bank account this is the God's honest truth.

Alright, let my crowd stoning begin.

Nice to read a voice of reason. Spot on!

Given the age of the dog, 5 years, I'd be especially keen to rule out any health issues that might account for the behavior change, be it thyroid, bad tooth, the onset of arthritis, or other issues that leave the dog feeling more vulnerable.

Bill

[seiowa]

I feel the need to add after re-reading this thread:

No dog on this planet, male, female, 5 pounds or 95 pounds, intact or altered, of any sporting breed (possible exceptions include Guardian or Primitive breeds like Tibetan Mastiffs or Great Pyrenese, etc) will ever try to exert "dominance" over a human. They simply don't possess the brain capacity. Dogs can exert dominance over other dogs, and they show dominance/submissiveness through body language, body posture, eye contact, vocalizations, teeth showing, etc. Dogs don't speak human. On the surface it looks like if you lord over your dog he is submissive (and some would say "properly" so) to you, but in fact that's a learned fear response. It means one time he acted up and you smacked him for it and he remembers. It has nothing to do with you "putting him in his place". Not to call out personal attacks here but whoever made the statement "Dogs don't make house payments, you do" couldn't be more far off.

Dealing with animals (and children) are a real shot to a man's ego because no matter how responsible, upright, and proper you are in your life, a dog or a child is going to test you and make you look foolish at one point or another. Just because a dog doesn't listen to you, it doesn't mean he wants to over throw you as master of the house or lead some bloody coup to steal your family and home. It means he just hasn't learned what TO do. Too often we spend HOURS teaching what NOT TO DO and rarely 5 minutes on what TO do. You can be heavy handed and create a broken down robot of a dog (or kid) or you can learn to adapt. Adapting doesn't mean weakness or defeat. It means work smarter, not harder.

Dog culture dies HARD. There are thousands of pages of scholarly literature out there written by people who are paid 6 figures to study such things 40 hours a week. These folks are making the (correct) claim that dominance and pack theory has no place in human - dog relationship. I'm not saying some dog men/breeders/trialers here don't make that kinda money or put in that amount of time, but how many also have PhD's in animal behavior, psychology, or anything halfway relevant? Or have conducted months of closely controlled, scientific, peer reviewed experiments?

Saying dogs are to be dominated because they are related to wolves is off base. That's like saying we should try to train cats with stools and whips because they are related to lions and tigers. Tens of thousands of years of domestication would do things to the brain of any species that you couldn't possibly imagine. That's why retrivers retrieve without eating birds for themselves, that's why pointers point but don't attack the critters, and why herding dogs chase but don't attack or maim stock.

Dominance is a quick fix that made sense (America likes blanket solutions) at the time, and people subscribed to it. And guys like Caesar Milan are on TV leash yanking, hand pinching, rib kicking, and choke chaining dogs until they don't pull on the lead anymore. I don't doubt that it WORKS because it obviously does. Dude's a millionaire with a tv show for a reason. But thats all fear and physical correction. Mental understanding of what TO do is much more foolproof and lasts a lifetime. More importantly a dog trained in the proper way will obey ANYONE in the family. If the dad is leash yanking, shocking, etc all the time, you can bet that dog will run wild over the wife or kids.

Sorry to get on a soapbox here (especially with only 11 posts when forums often view post count as the be all end all of credibility) but it is an issue I feel very strongly about, and could back up both with personal experience, professional peer reviewed scholarly literature, and modern science. If anyone has any real problem with it PM me so as not to competely destroy this thread or start a pissing match. Civil, well written PMs will receive the same back.

[shags]

I let my dog read this ^^^ and he laughed and laughed. Then he told me to give him a cookie because he didn't crap on my carpet today.

[gonehuntin']

Anyone that has not seen a dog show dominance over other dog's, people and families has not been around a lot of dog's. I have seen people and families live in fear of aggressive dog's. Not that the one in this thread is that way, but some are and I despise them all.

[Chukar12]

Dogs can become dangerous, their reasoners do not work well, or maybe theirs do and ours don't. In any event, an "evolving" culture would like us to believe in; and exert less force in many circumstances because it isn't nice. Well often it isn't. However, there is one irrefutable law that says nature is ruled by the willful use of force. We can manipulate it, mitigate it, lie to ourselves and others right up until the point a balance of power has shifted and the empowered party decides that things will be different. There are literally hundreds of combinations for types of aggressions in dogs, fear, possessive, human, dog on dog, game, etc... It is too complex to diagnose generally on the internet and the price of poor execution or inaction can be very high, and some times fatal for the animal.

There are circumstances where aggression can be mitigated by force with an adult, but only a fool would ever trust again. To the original poster: try what you can, always keep control of the situation, and never believe that the dog is "cured." As far as the comment that short of some examples identified as "Guardian or Primitive Breeds" dogs do not have the brain capacity to exert dominance over humans ... that is poppycock. Spoiled purse dogs can be viewed doing it daily on reality TV and every breed down the scale will do it given the circumstances. Dogs are a life long responsibility of behavioral control and must be treated as such.

[seiowa]

I let my dog read this ^^^ and he laughed and laughed. Then he told me to give him a cookie because he didn't crap on my carpet today.

Just the response I expected. Clearly your understanding of conditioning is lacking. Ideally you would watch your puppy crap outside and give him a treat rather than rub his nose in it or bring out the rolled up paper when he goes inside. All that does is teach the dog to crap inside where you can't see him.

Again, send me a PM if you want to learn more about it.

[Sharon]

Shags needs to learn more ? On what subject?

[ezzy333]

This is somewhat humorous and also is an interesting subject that is a focal point of some of younger people who are enamored with the political correctness that is running ramped throughout the country now. Fun part is someone telling many of the older experienced and highly successful people who have written the books that they know not of what they speak. I am sure there are new and occasionally better ways to do something but seldom will they be something completely new but rather a modification of the way it has been done for years. This doesn't mean we shouldn't listen and respond and should not have to suffer insults about what they know or how to act.

A for instance, you can teach a child what hot is but they won't really learn or know till they experience hot. You can put a sign or even a book on a bench about wet paint and the first thing everyone has to do is touch it to see if it is wet. You can read a book on how to drive a car, fly a plane, or even how to get to grandma's but you won't know how till you do it. Way too many educated people think a book written by someone with an opinion is far superior to experience, while forgetting the book is nothing more than a recording of someone's experience. Hence, the old saying someone is book smart but wouldn't last a minute out on the street.

Dogs are dogs, and we breed them to know what to do but then we have to train them on how to do it. That's been pretty much the way it has worked since the beginning of time, but if we would read the books we would maybe be able to start at a slightly advanced place, we might be able to learn a little faster since we have a guideline to work off of, but we will still end up doing basically what has worked for years though granted, there will be some modifications due largely to better equipment, but the real learning starts when you finish the books and start doing. Gonehunting, a successful trainer, Chukar12 an educated and highly successful trainer, Shags, a successful breeder and trainer, and many more on here that you and I can learn a whole bunch from even after reading the books

Most of us have learned that there are more than OUR way to do things though a few just can't accept that concept. Guess which ones are really learning and which ones are stuck in the mud spinning their wheels. Just a hint, it isn't the successful old timers who are still doing and not just reading.

[seiowa]

Ezzy

I by no means claim to be some book headed wannabe. I have had raised and hunted with dogs of all sorts my entire life. My kind isn't even welcome here because although I hunt every species able to be legally hunted with a dog more days a week than not (I'm not kidding), I am a lowly meat hunter. I have not ever titled even one dog, trialed one dog, or even tried to.

Everyone always gets defensive. I'm not saying you can't succeed using both schools of thought. There are authors, trainers, pros and breeders that smack the crap out of their dogs regularly and have more trophies in one case than I've ever won in my life at anything. More power to them. Your response is also textbook as far as how people respond to me on this issue; I'm not saying I know anyone job better than them. When it comes to trailing and testing I undoubtedly know less.

I'm merely pointing out that as far as resource guarding, fear directed aggression, etc (NOT giving training or breeding advice here because as I'm sure youd love to point out, its not my forte ) and other behavioral issues not related to the field, heavy handed approaches are often counterproductive or even dangerous long term.

If this world were governed solely by the majority's experience we would all still believe the world is flat. The human species and dogs have coexisted for what historically is the blink of an eye. I'm not satisfied with anyone who says after only a few hundred years we've got it all as figured out as its gonna get.

For the record, I vote Republican straight ticket, I carry. So any hippie granola muncher argument is just gonna roll right off.

[cjhills]

I let my dog read this ^^^ and he laughed and laughed. Then he told me to give him a cookie because he didn't crap on my carpet today.

Just the response I expected. Clearly your understanding of conditioning is lacking. Ideally you would watch your puppy crap outside and give him a treat rather than rub his nose in it or bring out the rolled up paper when he goes inside. All that does is teach the dog to crap inside where you can't see him.

Again, send me a PM if you want to learn more about it.

I think you are confusing dominance with aggression. they are not even remotely related. If you spend some time observing wolf packs you quickly see that the pack leader ( there definitely is a pack leader in spite of your research)
is not aggressive and has no need to be. The other wolves trust a calm leader. without a pack system the canine species would not survive. they could not hunt good enough or defend themselves.
My dog absolutely view me as the pack leader. Every adult dog that comes to my kennel buys into my system in a day or two. It is not done with any kind of abuse or enforcement, other than an occasional look. We just run the dog with our dogs for a few days, sometimes on a check cord so he does not run away for the first day or two. My dogs respect me as the leader and the new dog does the same thing. Some owners are amazed at what they see. I do not beat or abuse my dogs and I do very little treat training. My dogs obey because they are expected to obey. They are also not robots.
To the Op: If the dog has no health issues maybe he just does not like puppies bugging him. I would look for some other way than punishment. He does not think he is wrong................Cj

[cjhills]

One other thing. I have watched some Ceasar Milan shows and I have never seen him abuse a dog. whether you like his methods or not, he does some pretty remarkable things with some pretty bad dogs.

[ezzy333]

SEiow, I am not questioning what or how you train. I have no idea where you got the impression that a bird hunter is low on the totem pole. What I did write was more as a response to what you wrote as that I can read but I have no idea how you train a dog. What you wrote was pretty much a put down on other people who are hunters though some of them trial also. I just tried to tell you that you do not make points telling successful people they do not know what they are doing as it just isn't true. I too spent most of my time with dogs in the upland fields and not trialing and we raised and trained dogs for hunters. And I have voted straight republican though not because they were Republicans but just that they were usually more conservative. I don't think the dogs cared who I voted for so I never included it in my resune.

Good luck with your dogs and hunting. Enjoy it as there may be a time when you just can't do it anymore. It is what I miss most .

Ezzy