Springer Spaniel E-Collar introduction

[13ZacMe]

Greetings everyone! I have a year old springer spaniel that I'm attempting to finish up obedience training with. She knows the majority of commands (hup, down, kennel, come, release, get-it, etc) and complies roughly 85% of the time, including in the field. I'm trying to start e-collar training with her, but I can't establish a baseline "pressure setting" to train her with. If I let her loose in the yard where she is running around freely, and turn the collar (sport dog 825) to the lowest setting and hit her with continuous stimulation, she'll lower her head and just lay down. I've tried giving her a hup command inside on the check cord in conjunction with the e collar and she did the same thing. She didn't even want to stay seated once she was in the "sit" position, she just wanted to lay down at my feet. This is my first dog and I don't want to ruin her, so I figured I'd come to everyone on here for advise? So how do I introduce this seemingly sensitive dog (she's really not sensitive in any other way), to e collar training? Thanks, Zack

[Sharon]

I could be misreading what you've said, but it is unclear to me what you actually want the dog to do. Maybe it is unclear to the dog too.
The dog is on the check cord, you say "come" and use the lowest continuous setting , shutting it off the moment the dog reaches you. Is that what you are doing?

[13ZacMe]

I could be misreading what you've said, but it is unclear to me what you actually want the dog to do. Maybe it is unclear to the dog too.
The dog is on the check cord, you say "come" and use the lowest continuous setting , shutting it off the moment the dog reaches you. Is that what you are doing?

The problem I'm having is that when any e collar stimulation is applied, the dog just wants to lay down.

[13ZacMe]

I'm hesitant to start e collar training with her because it appears every stimulation level is too much for her. Like I mentioned earlier, the lowest setting makes her lower her head slightly and curl up at my feet. It doesn't seem like she's in pain, it's almost as if she's saddened by it.

[cjhills]

if you have not already done this let her wear it in the field without using it for a couple weeks.
get George Hickox puppy video,it is easy to understand and follow.........CJ

[CDN_Cocker]

I can't establish a baseline "pressure setting" to train her with. If I let her loose in the yard where she is running around freely, and turn the collar (sport dog 825) to the lowest setting and hit her with continuous stimulation, she'll lower her head and just lay down.

First of all STOP doing this! Her laying down is telling you you're frying her! That is not how you condition a dog (especially a spaniel) to an e-collar. Put her on a leash and start at the lowest setting and say hup, giving her a leash correction (don't touch the ecollar). Do this a few times then, with that lowest setting say Hup and nick her instead of leash correction. Continuous has absolutely no place in training a springer. Keep walking her on leash and saying hup and nick, increasing the setting until you see just the slightest sign that she notices it (this could be a twitch or a look at you). I really think you should be doing this with someone experienced. I am concerned for your dog after reading this post.

[13ZacMe]

if you have not already done this let her wear it in the field without using it for a couple weeks.
get George Hickox puppy video,it is easy to understand and follow.........CJ

She's wore it since she was just about six months old. I'll have to look into those videos, thank you!

[13ZacMe]

I can't establish a baseline "pressure setting" to train her with. If I let her loose in the yard where she is running around freely, and turn the collar (sport dog 825) to the lowest setting and hit her with continuous stimulation, she'll lower her head and just lay down.

First of all STOP doing this! Her laying down is telling you you're frying her! That is not how you condition a dog (especially a spaniel) to an e-collar. Put her on a leash and start at the lowest setting and say hup, giving her a leash correction (don't touch the ecollar). Do this a few times then, with that lowest setting say Hup and nick her instead of leash correction. Continuous has absolutely no place in training a springer. Keep walking her on leash and saying hup and nick, increasing the setting until you see just the slightest sign that she notices it (this could be a twitch or a look at you). I really think you should be doing this with someone experienced. I am concerned for your dog after reading this post.

I understand your concern, and have only done it twice. I've read multiple books and countless articles on training working dogs, so I was just doing what was recommended in the texts. Jim Dobbs suggested this method and it seemed like a good fit for my dog. She is extremely persistent and energetic. The fact that anything was able to get her to behave like that was a real surprise to me, and obviously prompted me to come here. I would love to train with experienced owners, but unfortunately hunting dogs, especially springers, are fairly rare in central pa. I didn't see a single E.S.S. the entirety of hunting season. I will try just nicking on the lowest setting like you recommended, and will let you know how i fair; thank you.

[ezzy333]

I have never seen a dog that laid down from being fried. Yelp, bark, go nuts maybe, but not laid down. She is laying down because she feels the stimulation and doesn't know what to do about it. Go back and work on the problem of what to do when you use the collar. But it sounds like your level is good just confusing.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

There is no dog that can not be trained with an electic collar but YOU have to know how to do it. What program have you bought or studied before trying this? My guess is none because that is NOT how you start a dog on the collar. The collar is used to enforce three basic concepts: coming to you, going from you, stopping. That's it. All else is a variation. You HAVE to have a leash on the dog and HAVE to force the dog to comply. For instance, say heel, stimulate, and walk, keeping tension on the leash and forcing the dog to walk with you. It's a rather complex process and I highly suggest you buy and watch one of the ecollar introduction cd's.

[13ZacMe]

There is no dog that can not be trained with an electic collar but YOU have to know how to do it. What program have you bought or studied before trying this? My guess is none because that is NOT how you start a dog on the collar. The collar is used to enforce three basic concepts: coming to you, going from you, stopping. That's it. All else is a variation. You HAVE to have a leash on the dog and HAVE to force the dog to comply. For instance, say heel, stimulate, and walk, keeping tension on the leash and forcing the dog to walk with you. It's a rather complex process and I highly suggest you buy and watch one of the ecollar introduction cd's.

I've primarily used a combination of Tom Dokkens Retriever Training, and Hup Training Flushing Spaniels the American Way. I understand you need to force the dog into compliance and that's what I've done up to this point. As I stated previously, I went with Jim Dobbs method because it seemed like it would work best for my specific situation. I'm certainly open to looking at getting DVDs to finish her training, and any and all suggestions are helpful. Thanks.

[gundogguy]

Greetings everyone! I have a year old springer spaniel that I'm attempting to finish up obedience training with. She knows the majority of commands (hup, down, kennel, come, release, get-it, etc) and complies roughly 85% of the time, including in the field. I'm trying to start e-collar training with her, but I can't establish a baseline "pressure setting" to train her with. If I let her loose in the yard where she is running around freely, and turn the collar (sport dog 825) to the lowest setting and hit her with continuous stimulation, she'll lower her head and just lay down. I've tried giving her a hup command inside on the check cord in conjunction with the e collar and she did the same thing. She didn't even want to stay seated once she was in the "sit" position, she just wanted to lay down at my feet. This is my first dog and I don't want to ruin her, so I figured I'd come to everyone on here for advise? So how do I introduce this seemingly sensitive dog (she's really not sensitive in any other way), to e collar training? Thanks, Zack

You mention the age of the dog however you fail to mention how long you have been trying to developing this spaniel. Are you training for AKC style obedience work or are actually trying to develop a hunting companion? Having train competitive spaniels for the field, trialing hunting and tests. I can count the number of spaniel that I needed to use the e-collar on one hand over the last 35 yrs. when I have had to use an e-collar it was a Dogtra brand with a Pager option. Which is a much more finesseful to correct known commands. There must be some reasoning you think you need to use the e-collar. what is your motivation? Also we do not know who you acquired this spaniel from or if you have any affiliation with one of the 70 or so spaniel clubs around the country. The seller of this pup or a club would be a much better place to acquire this type of specialized information from. They would be able to counsel you based on eye witness information instead of what has been offered. I do agree with Cass all e collar work should be stopped until you can work with a mentor or training partner. I like Cass am concerned for you and you dog, but neither of witness the behavior, Hope that you have not crossed any thresholds that maybe very difficult to cure or fix best of luck.

[polmaise]

Greetings everyone! I have a year old springer spaniel that I'm attempting to finish up obedience training with. She knows the majority of commands (hup, down, kennel, come, release, get-it, etc) and complies roughly 85% of the time, including in the field. I'm trying to start e-collar training with her, but I can't establish a baseline "pressure setting" to train her with. If I let her loose in the yard where she is running around freely, and turn the collar (sport dog 825) to the lowest setting and hit her with continuous stimulation, she'll lower her head and just lay down. I've tried giving her a hup command inside on the check cord in conjunction with the e collar and she did the same thing. She didn't even want to stay seated once she was in the "sit" position, she just wanted to lay down at my feet. This is my first dog and I don't want to ruin her, so I figured I'd come to everyone on here for advise? So how do I introduce this seemingly sensitive dog (she's really not sensitive in any other way), to e collar training? Thanks, Zack

I would work on the bold part aiming for 100% before overlaying a ''start e-collar training''
A phrase comes to mind ?...'If I get a bollocking for doing it wrong! I can't get a bollocking for doing nothing! ..Can I ?'

[Sharon]

After reading this whole thread , it sounds like you have already done everything folks have suggested and you know how to condition to an e collar.
You've :
. read and studied programmes
. dogs been wearing the collar for months
. You are using the lowest setting

suggestions given:
. work more non obedience without a collar
. use nick instead of continuous
. force to comply with a cc ( Although it sounds like you will be dragging the dog across the lawn.)
. change e collars . Consider a Dogtra brand with pager (Gundoggy)
. Get help from a Pro
. Don't use a collar.

I'll be interested to see how this actually works out. Let us know please.

(Sorry for the summary but I'm an old teacher. )

[welsh]

I can count the number of spaniel that I needed to use the e-collar on one hand over the last 35 yrs ... There must be some reasoning you think you need to use the e-collar. what is your motivation?

Absolutely spot on and I hope the OP takes this post to heart along with Cass's point re being worried what this can lead to.

Don't go planning to use a collar just because books say to use a collar and everyone online tells you to use a collar and all the stores are selling collars. I can't claim 35 years of experience in training spaniels but among all the people I've had the good fortune to learn from in the spaniel world I've very rarely seen e-collars used. They simply aren't essential to spaniel training, and whether you're frying the dog or confusing her the chances are you're doing it needlessly. Unless there is some specific problem you're working on that is best solved with the collar -- i.e. that requires a correction with split second timing -- then I'd say just stop using the thing.

To Polmaise's point if you're getting 85% compliance to basic obedience then there's work to be done before advancing anyway.

[13ZacMe]

"You mention the age of the dog however you fail to mention how long you have been trying to developing this spaniel. Are you training for AKC style obedience work or are actually trying to develop a hunting companion? Having train competitive spaniels for the field, trialing hunting and tests. I can count the number of spaniel that I needed to use the e-collar on one hand over the last 35 yrs. when I have had to use an e-collar it was a Dogtra brand with a Pager option. Which is a much more finesseful to correct known commands. There must be some reasoning you think you need to use the e-collar. what is your motivation? Also we do not know who you acquired this spaniel from or if you have any affiliation with one of the 70 or so spaniel clubs around the country. The seller of this pup or a club would be a much better place to acquire this type of specialized information from. They would be able to counsel you based on eye witness information instead of what has been offered. I do agree with Cass all e collar work should be stopped until you can work with a mentor or training partner. I like Cass am concerned for you and you dog, but neither of witness the behavior, Hope that you have not crossed any thresholds that maybe very difficult to cure or fix best of luck.

She's going to be used solely for hunting.I've been working with her since last June. This dog is not AKC certified and there aren't any clubs in close proximity to me. Upland hunting is done by an extremely small portion of hunters in central Pennsylvania. I don't think I've crossed any thresholds with shocking her 3 times essentially. She acts like it never even happened and continues to behave in the same manner as before I tried to establish a minimum setting. I assume I need the e collar to finish training where a check cord is no longer practical. Such as doing field work and her not hupping on the whistle when she's 25 yards from me. So assuming there's no one around me with spaniel experience, how would YOU continue training her? I'm looking for viable solutions.

[polmaise]

So assuming there's no one around me with spaniel experience, how would YOU continue training her? I'm looking for viable solutions.

Fill up the truck with gas .

[welsh]

I assume I need the e collar to finish training where a check cord is no longer practical. Such as doing field work and her not hupping on the whistle when she's 25 yards from me. So assuming there's no one around me with spaniel experience, how would YOU continue training her? I'm looking for viable solutions.

This is going to sound rather facetious, but if the dog won't hup when she's 25 yards from you, don't work her 25 yards from you. Reading between the lines, you're using a check cord when she's closer. If you need a check cord when she's closer, she's not ready to work farther away yet. But you can get her there.

I know what you're going through ... been there and done that, before I joined up with some more experienced people. I worked with check cords and collars because I didn't realize the fundamental problem: I was expecting too much of the dog. A dog that won't obey at 25 yards is telling you she's not ready to work at that distance, and you need to step back one level. Keep on top of the dog and keep her working closer until you're getting the performance you want. You can do that without the collar or the check cord, and getting the dog solid without either of those means you get a more solid dog period. Remember that English authorities from pre-e-collar days such as Peter Moxon or Keith Erlandson didn't even use check cords unless they absolutely needed them ... they used patience and they didn't push the dog too far too fast. When you have the dog absolutely solid at 15 yards sans check cord then she's ready to work at 25.

Are any of these folks near you? You may not have a club nearby but often someone in the trial and test community can put you in touch with someone who knows his stuff.
http://www.essfta.org/resources/regiona ... -clubs/#PA

[13ZacMe]

Thanks for the responses everyone. You've pretty much beaten me into submission to stop e collar training. Since this is the case, can I have recommendations on additional books and DVDs? She's a great dog in general and I have a lot of confidence that she will continue to be a great hunting partner if I just continue with a solid training platform. Thanks.

[polmaise]

Thanks for the responses everyone. You've pretty much beaten me into submission to stop e collar training. Since this is the case, can I have recommendations on additional books and DVDs? She's a great dog in general and I have a lot of confidence that she will continue to be a great hunting partner if I just continue with a solid training platform. Thanks.

Put a blank dvd in your machine then go see a trainer who can film you while you learn from them .
When it's finished post it here ,it will be great to see.

[gundogguy]

"You mention the age of the dog however you fail to mention how long you have been trying to developing this spaniel. Are you training for AKC style obedience work or are actually trying to develop a hunting companion? Having train competitive spaniels for the field, trialing hunting and tests. I can count the number of spaniel that I needed to use the e-collar on one hand over the last 35 yrs. when I have had to use an e-collar it was a Dogtra brand with a Pager option. Which is a much more finesseful to correct known commands. There must be some reasoning you think you need to use the e-collar. what is your motivation? Also we do not know who you acquired this spaniel from or if you have any affiliation with one of the 70 or so spaniel clubs around the country. The seller of this pup or a club would be a much better place to acquire this type of specialized information from. They would be able to counsel you based on eye witness information instead of what has been offered. I do agree with Cass all e collar work should be stopped until you can work with a mentor or training partner. I like Cass am concerned for you and you dog, but neither of witness the behavior, Hope that you have not crossed any thresholds that maybe very difficult to cure or fix best of luck.

She's going to be used solely for hunting.I've been working with her since last June. This dog is not AKC certified and there aren't any clubs in close proximity to me. Upland hunting is done by an extremely small portion of hunters in central Pennsylvania. I don't think I've crossed any thresholds with shocking her 3 times essentially. She acts like it never even happened and continues to behave in the same manner as before I tried to establish a minimum setting. I assume I need the e collar to finish training where a check cord is no longer practical. Such as doing field work and her not hupping on the whistle when she's 25 yards from me. So assuming there's no one around me with spaniel experience, how would YOU continue training her? I'm looking for viable solutions.

Well then get her to hup really solid at 2 yds then 3 then 5 then 10. For a dog to stop and hup there has to be a pay off. normally it is the opportunity to make a retieve, work up to those longer ditance in small steps. I'll include a short video clip of this. Paul McGagh and a 8-9 month old spaniel, no e collar no check cord, quiet handling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcsJKQdpzOE

Pennsylvania is an absolute hot bed for spaniel activities. The state is just lousy with spaniel people. Go to ESSFT.com it is a large site loaded with information spend some time checking trialing schedules and the various clubs in the Penn. There are no Spaniel e-collar training video's to be had, and a check cord is never impractical if it was introduce properly. Training by the way is never finished if this is one of your 1st spaniel then you would probable not know when she was finished in the first place. as Polmaise wrote do a video of your training sessions with a Penn training partner and there are many share it chance are the training collar will not even be part of the routine.

[marysburg]

You are wise to seek more help with your dog, and meanwhile, to continue training without using the ecollar. Along with the great advice which you have already received here, I will add that all ecollars are not created equal. My Brittanies (3) were all brought up on a Tri Tronics ecollar with no problems, but when I bought a SportDog setup, I found that there was not a setting low enough to keep from shutting down all three dogs. Went back to Tri Tronics, and had no further problems. The Lab was fine with the SportDog, but she needed a higher setting on the Tri Tronics than I used on the Brittanies. Have fun with your pup, and keep in touch.

[CDN_Cocker]

but unfortunately hunting dogs, especially springers, are fairly rare in central pa.

Actually there's a ton in PA and OH. That's where my dog comes from. You're in a real good position to get out with other springer enthusiasts.

[gonehuntin']

Don't let anyone "beat you into submission" to not use the ecollar; always remember that it is the greatest safety tool ever invented and the quickest, most humane and most precise method of training any dog. I've trained a lot of spaniels, mostly springer using the collar and other than the "springer rage" which you find in the show lines, never had a problem.

If you're following Dobbs, who is outstanding, I think you may be misunderstanding or missing something. First, ALWAYS work the dog leashed so you can guide it through the ecollar reinforcements. As long as the dog isn't yipping when you hit the button, your stimulation level is not too high. Do as Sharon says and go to the nick rather than continuous. This allows the dog to comply with all commands before the stimulation is introduced. Or, if you use continuous, only stimulate until the dog starts to comply with the command, not throughout the command. Teach what Jim teaches, the three collar responses: Kennel teaches the dog to move FROM you. HERE teaches the dog to come to you. SIT teaches the dog to cease all movement. Those are the three responses the ecollar is designed to reinforce.

Your dog is simply unsure of what the sensation is he is experiencing. Command heel, nick him on the collar, and tug on the leash. When he starts moving with you tell him good dog so he knows his response is correct. The sequence would go: Heel, nick, tug, HEEL, nick, tug, GOOD DOG when compliance is achieved. You have to work on all three commands, HERE, KENNEL, SIT at the same time so the dog understands the stimulation with the collar is NO different than the tug on the lead. If you only train one at a time, the dog will select that as his default response and perform that response for every command issued, no matter what it is. This is the reason that sometimes dog seem to freeze up on a command; they don't know how to escape the stimulation.

Just be consistent and don't let the dog fool you into believing that the collar is too intense for him.

Of course, the flip side is, if you don't want to use the collar, don't use it. It is faster, more precise and safer BUT the end results are the same; you simply arrive faster using the ecollar. Which is why most if not all pro's now use them.

[polmaise]

[quote="gonehuntin'"]
If you're following Dobbs, who is outstanding, I think you may be misunderstanding or missing something. [/quote
And if you are already following something you shouldn't question it with others .It just gets cloudy .