Hunting Dog Training & More    

Popular Searches: Garmin Astro | Dog Collars | Tri-Tronics | SPORTdog

Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Thinblueline » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:12 am

If a guy new to pointing dogs considers all facets of electronic collars, and decides that among the many factors concerning them, he primarily just doesn't want to risk his own ignorance possibly screwing the dog up, then how exactly does he go about training a dog with old school methods with regards to recall rebellion from a long distance, and trash breaking against distractions, such as deer?

In other words, let's say a young dog recalls very well 99% of the time to his name and a whistle when running free or even with a 20 foot check cord at hunting distances, because there has been positive reinforcement every single time with small kibble treats and praise, but that one percent of the time, he gets more interested in something else and refuses to come in to your call or whistle. I know you have to run him down, but what do you do when you get there? Spank him? Put him on his back and yell at him? Grab him by the scruff of the neck? I'm not sure. I know you don't do anything negative if he finally comes back on his own, but I can't find much reading on how to discipline a dog without an electronic collar.

How about chasing deer. I know you can yell "no" at the top of your lungs, but in the likely event his excitement of the chase drowns out your "no", what do you to your dog when he finally comes back or you finally find him? How do you break him of these things?

I know some of you might say, "Well, you just made your case for an electronic collar", but that is the easy way out of this conversation. How did the old school boys have such good dogs back in the day without electronic collars, and how did they effectively put an end to these behaviors?

Thanks in advance for entertaining this thread.
Thinblueline
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 7:30 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby shags » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:17 am

When my dogs disobey a recall command and don't have an ecollar on, I chase them down, give them a stern "Whaddyyadoin?" then do a couple recalls right there at close range. Then praise and go on. I don't think it makes much of an impression, because they revert after a while. It's not like they totally blow me off and never come in, it's that they decide to finish whatever they're doing before eventually coming in.

Trashbreaking used to involve running them down and thrashing them, or some birdshot in the butt when you were within range. Here again, the ecollar is way easier, safer, effective. The one time one of my dogs chased deer without the ecollar, I was so exhausted and relieved when I caught up with him that it was all I could do to sort of huff 'n puff out a Bad Dog! and make him heel home.


There are lots of old training books out there if you want to read about some of the old time methods. I have some from before the Civil War. I think some may be free from amazon if you can download to a device.

IMO the ecollar beats old school all to heck for both recall and trashbreaking. Back in the day about the only discipline that was pretty much condemned was kicking a dog around. Flushing whips weren't used just for flushing. Ugh.
shags
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby mask » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:17 pm

I have my dogs broke off deer and antelope by the time they are six months. Most that bounce a deer quit on their own when they find they can't catch them. Some have had to get a spanking to get the point across and I have never had to use the ecollar to trash break one of my own dogs, with outside dogs in for training that has not always been the case. A lot of good dogs have been ruined by folks that didn't understand how and especially when to use the collar. You might try Dave Walker's book or Mo lindley's book and leave out the ecollar part if that is what suits you. They both give some good tips on the use of the ecollar,
mask
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby DougB » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:36 pm

I prefer to do all training without a collar. Enclosed area, check cord, repetition, treats. I use the collar when we hit the great outdoors, to remind the dog that distance doesn't mean run free. But I hunt a Springer, and they like to see the boss frequently when hunting. I have noticed that when they chase a deer (one dog) catching it is not as much fun as chasing it.
User avatar
DougB
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Meller » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:29 pm

Most of all the thing's, such as here or come start from day one as a puppy, and as most commands they need to be rock solid before moving along to another command; if a dog is raised in this manner from a puppy, along with discipline, it becomes second nature to obey in the field, and to look to the master for direction; you just need to be consistent in your training, while making turning training into a habit or conditioned response to the command given.
Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Featherfinder » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:53 pm

Thinblueline, I trained my horseback field trials champions long before e-collars were prevalent. The difference is I was 20 years old back then. For me to run a renegade down today means it might be the last thing I do!
Some dogs don't chase deer. Some dogs chase for a period of time then stop. Some dogs will happily chase deer relentlessly....'til they die. So, the first two require little-to-no intervention to achieve goal. The challenge remains with the third example and even at 20 years of age, there are risks running them down to both dog or trainer. The stakes which include losing the race with a young renegade running for the highway can be catastrophic.
Shooting at your renegade might be the fastest way I know for you to experience your moment of fame.
Dogs are great discriminators - terrible generalists. Teach your dog a trick and go somewhere else and you might be surprised at the challenge there-in. That's why when your wife is watching TV with the dog on the couch right next to her and the front door opens, your dog immediately jumps off the couch. Why? Because he knows hubby won't be happy about him being on the couch. So......yard work is a great beginning. That said, it's a LONG way from a reliable field performance. Some dogs perform flawlessly in the yard and have no clue why you are fuming as he disappears over the horizon at the farm.
What I like to do is sit down with the dog and explain what I want from him. I subsequently show the dog a map outlining the acceptable perimeter area versus the out-of-bound areas. I try to explain how heart-broken I would be should he get hit by a car or disappear chasing a female coyote in season. Then, I ask if the dog has any questions or is unclear. Lastly, I strap on an e-collar. The best part is that after the run, that dog goes home with me....no matter what. I know....it's SO cruel compared to the options.
Also, what works for your neighbor's "foo-foo" dog has nothing to do with a well bred bird dog. Just because you can ride your Tennessee Walker bareback, I would NOT recommend you try that with a zebra although I would be honored to witness your effort there-in. (That's "effort" not "efforts" as there would likely only be one.) :lol:
Featherfinder
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:00 pm

In my mind many more dogs were ruined before we had the collars than with them
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16375
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Thinblueline » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:In my mind many more dogs were ruined before we had the collars than with them


Care to elaborate?
Thinblueline
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 7:30 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby birddogger2 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:22 pm

Thinblueline wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:In my mind many more dogs were ruined before we had the collars than with them


Care to elaborate?



Thinblue -

I suggest, if you want to get into that sort of thing, that you talk to some old retired professional bird dog trainers.

I am not the sort of person who aspires to be politically correct, but getting into some of the old school training techniques isnot something I personally care to do, especially on line.

Old school was not pretty. It was downright ugly sometimes.

Old school was not kind or gentle. It was very physical, sometimes brutal and sometimes borderline abusive. Occasionally beyond borderline.

You did not ask the dog to cooperate with you. You demanded it and enforced that demand with physical and mental force. Occasionally that force has been known to include 8 shot or 9 shot out of a 20 ga.

Old school was very much an exercise in attrition. Culling was ruthless and quite final.

I will give you one example and leave it there.

When a pro went to the prairies in the middle of summer. They carried twenty or thirty young dogs to evaluate and train. All dogs were the product of the best breeding that was available at the time.

When they came back in the early fall, they came home with two, three or four young dogs. The rest... didn't make the trip.

I for one am very glad that we have modern training methods, especially the modern, variable intensity shock collar.

RayG
birddogger2
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby mask » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:29 pm

Not all old time trainers were cruel or shot dogs in the butt for misbehaving. The person ask for a way to train without the shock collar so why not give the person some ideas? The Higgins method may work for him or something else.
mask
Rank: Champion
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Thinblueline » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:34 pm

Yeah, I'd have something to say to a guy if I witnessed some of the old school techniques referred to, which borders on animal abuse, if not exactly that. I was just looking for acceptable techniques that wouldn't break the bond of love between me and my dog.
Thinblueline
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 7:30 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Sharon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:41 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Thinblueline wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:In my mind many more dogs were ruined before we had the collars than with them


Care to elaborate?



Thinblue -

I suggest, if you want to get into that sort of thing, that you talk to some old retired professional bird dog trainers.

I am not the sort of person who aspires to be politically correct, but getting into some of the old school training techniques isnot something I personally care to do, especially on line.

Old school was not pretty. It was downright ugly sometimes.

Old school was not kind or gentle. It was very physical, sometimes brutal and sometimes borderline abusive. Occasionally beyond borderline.

You did not ask the dog to cooperate with you. You demanded it and enforced that demand with physical and mental force. Occasionally that force has been known to include 8 shot or 9 shot out of a 20 ga.

Old school was very much an exercise in attrition. Culling was ruthless and quite final.

I will give you one example and leave it there.

When a pro went to the prairies in the middle of summer. They carried twenty or thirty young dogs to evaluate and train. All dogs were the product of the best breeding that was available at the time.

When they came back in the early fall, they came home with two, three or four young dogs. The rest... didn't make the trip.

I for one am very glad that we have modern training methods, especially the modern, variable intensity shock collar.

RayG


Well said. I trained and bred beagles with my Dad for 25+ years- long before the e collar was available. I also wouldn't want to elaborate on what I saw when a beagle decided to chase deer/coon instead of rabbit. Thankfully we have the e collar to day.

Thinblueline - Fearing harming a dog through through the ineffective use of an e collar doesn't have to be a worry now. There are great programmes that make it easy. It's the folk who think they know it all, so blast away on an e collar that are the ones who ruin a dog - not cautious folk like you.
User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 7722
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby birddogger2 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:01 pm

Thinblueline wrote:Yeah, I'd have something to say to a guy if I witnessed some of the old school techniques referred to, which borders on animal abuse, if not exactly that. I was just looking for acceptable techniques that wouldn't break the bond of love between me and my dog.


Guys - The bird dogs of fifty years ago were much different dogs...mentally. On average, they were much tougher, mentally and much more independent, especially pointers. The shorthairs were mentally just as tough as the pointers but(again, on average) not as independent. The bird dogs of today are typically much softer of temperament and much easier to bend to your will. I think that they are easier to train to a higher level. That is, however, a two edged sword. While the old time dogs were like that Timex..."Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin", many of the bird dogs today REQUIRE a lighter touch and a softer hand or you may set them back or even break them down.

There are plenty of training schemes that do not use the e-collar, but they all have one hole in them. The hole is "What do you do when the dog is out of your physical sphere of control...and chooses to blow you off?"

There are lots of dogs that want to stay with you and lots that do not range all that far when hunting. Generally those non e-collar schemes will work quite well for that type of dog. Paul Long or Mo Lindley's book detail very good and useful methods. So does Delmar Smith's. All good methods...all work. JIm Marti's Burnt Creek method is also a very good way to get it done(if you can find the book).

BUT...if you have a hard charging, bird crazy bird dog...the dog is gonna blow you off. Sooner or later its gonna happen and when it does... the trainer loses because the dog learns that it can do whatever it wants to do, once it is outside that sphere of control.

Just something to think about. I lean toward the hard chargers myself, so it is something I experience with just about every dog I train.

RayG
birddogger2
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Featherfinder » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:21 am

Dead on Ray! Simple rule of thumb when training: If you are not in a position of control, don't make the request.
Thinblueline, if you REALLY love your dog, you will learn how to train your dog without the e-collar however you should how to use it in case THE DOG dictates that it be introduced to reinforce the training you have ALREADY done.
Whether it's an e-collar, a verbal tongue lashing or a leather lashing, the decision is never one a loving owner relishes for his dog. The DOG makes that call - not the owner/trainer. I'd prefer that the dog and I skip along through the various segments with a happy dog & happy smiles all the way. It doesn't always play out that way.
I kid you not - a female coyote in season will lure a male dog into the woods where the pack is waiting. I watched this myself as she pranced and danced with her tail high and wagging! If it happens to a dog without an e-collar, your dog will not see tomorrow. Your dog may have recalled flawlessly....until that day. What is your recourse should this happen and you don't have an e-collar on? Why would you allow this to happen if you love your dog?
I tend to refer to e-collars as, "....the cheapest insurance you can buy."
Featherfinder
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby shags » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:26 am

Ray a d Featherfinder,

I don't which one of you guys I "like" the most today :D

Eeny, meeny, miney, mo.....
shags
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Trekmoor » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:28 am

An interesting thread. I suppose I am "old style" partly because I am a fair age and partly because I use old methods ....or used to when I could still "run a dog down." Running a dog down worked very well for me but I did it without giving the errant dog a four letter hiding once it had "given in " and stopped running. It worked more on the dogs mind than on it's body. My dogs knew that I would come after them and that I would not be pleased with them .

It was important to run them down after just one attempt to whistle stop or whistle turn them. Repeated blows on the whistle only taught the dog that the whistle could be ignored with impunity. Most people tend to repeat ignored commands out of laziness to get out there after the dog. Not a good idea.

I have been too old to run dogs down now for at least twenty years and have joined the ranks of the repeat whistlers ! :x One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn more about e-collar use .....correct e-collar use ! I do have an e-collar but still only use it on hard-headed sheep chasers. I still don't think I know enough to use one during everyday training. I'd want to see a few experts in their use here in Britain and their methods at first hand before I'd use one.

I don't use e-collars and very, very seldom ever put a check-cord on a dog and still manage to train reasonably good and well behaved gundogs ...... along with age came the experience to do this, I suppose being a dinosaur does have some benefits !

Bill T.
Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby greg jacobs » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:43 pm

+1 on what Ray G. Said

The collar has allowed far more humane and effective methods of training to be created and used. The old ways often crossed the line in my eyes. Even my knot head sees me grab the alpha bag and she goes crazy because she knows she is going to go do what she truly loves to do. If the collars were cruel dogs would go run and hide when they saw them and they just don't.
Higgins probably knows more than I ever will. I love to watch his videos and I really respect and enjoy watching what he can do with a dog. But I don't believe his methods work on a hard charging really independent knot head. Same with Mo. I believe Higgins was the one that said some dogs were born to the collar. It may not have been him that said it but I believe it's a true statement.
User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Featherfinder » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:48 am

I agree with Ray as well. That said, I find smart dogs can be harder to train than dogs that just follow confident leadership blended with internal instinct. Really smart dogs (I call them thinkers) make training more like a chess match. If you're not at least 3 steps ahead, they can make you look pretty silly.
I also agree that the evolution of dogs has brought us a diverse student and that brings with it a wide range or constantly evolving processes because as we know dogs can be very different from each other even within a litter. Dogs can teach us about themselves, IF we are receptive. After ~40 years, I'm still learning. As I like to say, "Dog training is a journey, not a destination."
Trekmoor, I used e-collars for steadying dogs MANY years ago when the common trainer bragged that, " Yup, I use an e-collar but NEVER when a dog is on point!" That particular trainer is correct. "He" should not use an e-collar on a dog, period....never mind on point. My point is, if the preceding training did not include the tailor- made critical steps (minus an e-collar) which subsequently leads up to an in-active then finally active e-collar, you could erode an otherwise promising pupil! It's really not that complicated when you know how. ;)
In my early career, I was a technician. There were complex processes that had chronological protocols, required specialized tools, etc. etc. As the years passed, a natural learning curve exposed easier ways to accomplish the tasks with a superior end result. If nothing else, it saved time which as we know, is money. So answer me this? Why is it that in 2017 folk STILL use archaic methods/philosophies/procedures or retain ancient concepts of dog training - in this case regarding e-collars?
We are still targeting those same fundamental goals in a competent bird dog are we not? Not that much has changed there-in, and yet some trainers simply look at a wonderful canine prospect as a square peg which has to be driven into a round hole! The only decision for that trainer to make is, "How big a hammer do I need?"
......wow!?!?! By-the-way, THAT trainer is the reason these tools are frowned upon making us ALL pay.
Featherfinder
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:22 am

First you train here, then you trash break. Here is one of my old posts on a force-here, commonly called de-bolt.


De-bolting a dog is something that should be done to every well trained dog. Quite simply, it means that you take every safe haven away from a dog and make the place by your side the only safe place for the dog. Here's how it's done.

Start the dog on a leash and collar. When walking him into the house, open the door and let him go in then command HERE sharply and give him a series of short, sharp tugs to make him come to you. Do this until he comes reliably out of the house 100% of the time. Now do the same thing in his dog house. Tell him to kennel and once he is in his kennel or house, sharply command HERE and guide him out with a series of sharp tugs. Now do the same thing with your truck or car. Let him jump in or enter on the KENNEL command, then command HERE and give the series of sharp tugs to get him out. This series of sharp tugs is important because it will make transition to nicks with an ecollar easier. Now have people call him, let him go to them on lead, then command HERE while they try to coax him to stay again using a series of short, sharp tugs. By now, on leash, he should come to you at any time, no matter the distraction.

Now we switch it off leash. This a little trickier and it's going to make it a heck of a lot easier if the dog has ALL READY been broken to the ecollar. If the dog has not, use a low power BB pistol, marble, or a paint ball gun but an ecollar is the safest and easiest. Start in a fenced in yard, perferebly a small one where the dog has no escape, no distraction and no where to go. When he is at one end of the yard command HERE sharply and nick him. Keep commanding HERE and nicking him, slowly raising the intensity until he comes to your side. You can tell him "good dog" but don't talk baby talk to him and baby him. This is a force drill and it doesn't matter if the dog is happy about it or not. Now sit or whoa the dog, walk away, command HERE, nick him and continue commanding HERE and nicking him until he comes to your side. Do this until he's 100%. He may get to the point that when you command SIT or WHOA he won't, he'll stay with you because he knows what's coming. That's OK, he's now beginning to understand. If he cowers in a corner and won't come, keep commanding HERE, nicking him and raising the intensity until he does come. If you have done a good job on the leash or CC and he is well collar conditioned, this doesn't happen much and if it does, he only tries it once.

OK, now he's 100% off lead in the yard so we proceed to the same proceedure we used on leash. Let him walk into the house, command HERE, and nick him. Same with the car, kennel, and dog house or crate. Be careful of this with people because the dog under high stimulation may think it's the person and bite them so most amateurs should skip this step. Tempt him anyway and with anything you can but when you command HERE, he should stop doing whatever he's doing, spin, and come running back to you. He is now de-bolted. This sounds complicated but in reality is a three day process though with a well trained dog, training or reinforcement continues throughout the dog's life.

The end result is that the dog learns that there is no SAFE PLACE BUT AT YOUR SIDE.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby NEhomer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:30 am

I simply don't get the argument against the e-collar.

If you're afraid of messing up, don't mess up. Goodness, with YouTube and this forum, what the beginner needs to know is easy to find and on top if that, it ain't rocket science...unless you named your dog Rocket! There are some differences of opinion but commands are thoroughly taught before considering shocking an unwitting dog. That's where you screw up so resist the urge if you get frustrated. Failing to recall is totally different than deer chasing.

Trash breaking is easy and the only way you mess that up is by paying any attention to the dog after the correction. He'll soon think that it hurts his neck to chase deer.

My setter is excellent at all of my commands but he's perfect with his collar on. I'll take perfect.

Good luck OP.
User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Featherfinder » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:36 am

What many of us have to consider (myself included) is that the OP is admittedly a newby. It is conceivable that his perception of e-collars was/is fostered by those that have no understanding of the tool. Sadly, those people often are in a position of making the rules. I guess that's true in more than just dog training, isn't it?
Featherfinder
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:10 am

I think that's right. It's the perceptions and stories of the old 70's creating the animosity toward the ecollar. I've said this a hundred times and I'll continue for the new people: There has never been a safer, more humane, more precise training tool ever invented than the ecollar. There is no valid reason for every hunting dog to NOT wear an ecollar.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby TTIERNS » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:08 pm

Two things, first is be consistent with the corrections. Sure,swift,and certain. Correct immediately so the dog understands the correction is for whatever mistake he just made. If you can't correct immediately better off not to correct at all.

When my dog disobeys a command I use a Dave Walker method of picking him up just off the ground using the dogs collar and lead and spin him 360 degrees. Dogs do not like that at all. Works well with my Brittany who is pretty soft.
TTIERNS
Rank: Just A Pup
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Redleg6 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:08 pm

The simplest and best answer is don't do it old school. Old school is often not the best way or it wouldn't be old school.......regardless of the discipline. Go to a seminar or buy an online course on the proper use of an e-collar. Study hard and then buy one and use it the way your were trained. An e-collar is the most freedom you can ever safely give your dog. And never, ever shoot your dog with anything....BB pistol, paint gun, etc.......unless you'd like to see your dog lose an eye.
Redleg6
Rank: Just A Pup
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:50 pm
Location: The Ozark Plateau

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby JONOV » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:41 am

I was in your position a year or so ago, a new puppy owner who wanted to train well but also deathly afraid of ruining the dog. I did see a dog returned to a breeder that was afraid of the bird field he was so shell shocked by the collar.

So read my advice knowing i'm an amateur with my first dog.

  • I put the e-collar on him every time I take him outside to be off leash. He starts to quiver and prance with excitement when I pull it off the hook. He knows it means off leash time, running in the woods, or working on birds, or swimming, etc...
  • I was taught to use the minimum stimulation needed with one exception (deer breaking.)
  • I was taught not to correct with the collar unless the dog knew what he was being corrected for.
  • If I give the "down" command to my dog and he continues to stand, I'll correct that, since he knows darn well what it meant.
  • If I tell him "go right" or give him a hand signal to search in a direction, I have no right to correct him; he hasn't been taught what that means.
  • If I shock him for breaking point, when I haven't done any steadiness work on him, that isn't going to accomplish anything either.
  • People "ruin" the dogs when they are control freaks and shock is so darn much that it associates hunting with electricity, and/or when they "correct" the dog when the dog doesn't get what its being corrected for.

Regarding deer, I was told to say nothing, and when the dog gives chase, light him up and "let him think deer shoot lightning bolts." Ignore him when he comes back to you.

The cliff note version I was taught at a NAVHDA meeting was to use the collar to teach the dog the "Kennel" command (going away) instead of just as a "get back here dammit."

I knew it was time when I went hunting with my dog as a six month old, I told him to come, he didn't come, looked at me, and walked away. He knew darn well what that command meant, and a half dozen others as well, but gave me the finger. I couldn't really run him down either, since it was thickish stuff and I couldn't move through it that fast.

Probably more common than ruining a dog with a shock collar, is people that use it only to get the dog to come back to you and stop eating or rolling in s#i+. From a training perspective, the idea is that you use the collar as a tool for teaching all the important facets of training: "Come here" "Stop Moving" "Move away/in a direction..."

If all you want to do with the e-collar is reinforce the recall and break it off of deer, porkies, skunks, there isn't a whole lot to it. In that case, you aren't really training with the ecollar, but using it as an emergency brake.

While using it as such is anathema to a lab field trialer, if your goal is keeping the dog from chasing deer and listening to you to get back over here, i don't think you're going to ruin the dog.

**ETA** Don't use it when your mad. Don't train much of anything when you're angry.
JONOV
Rank: Junior Hunter
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Sharon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:34 pm

You learned more in a year than many figure out in 3 years- if at all. Hats off to you.

edited for : in not than
Last edited by Sharon on Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 7722
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby HUNT 24/7 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:41 pm

Excellent read!
My dog is collar conditioned & I run it on him in the woods most the time, hardly ever have to use it on him. I wanted to make sure he would listen to me even if I couldn't correct him because he didn't have the collar on so I did some old school training with him I guess you could call it.
If he ever refused a command I knew darn well he knows, I basically used some heavy angry body language like stomping quickly towards him paired with stern vocal commands & mad faces! Haha! Then once I come in contact with him Ill grab onto him & kinda man handle him to heel while saying Boys Oh Boys! thats his ya done F'd up son command, but never hurting him one bit. Then at close range we go over the command he refused several times & the fun we were having ends, he is heeled back to the vehicle, house or kennelled for a period of time.
Its worked out really good for me so far, he's a 4 year old male DD & he listens to me very well, collar or not.
User avatar
HUNT 24/7
Rank: Senior Hunter
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:52 pm
Location: N.B Canada

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby Trekmoor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:23 am

Sharon wrote:You learned more than a year than many figure out in 3 years- if at all. Hats off to you.


Ditto that.

Bill T.
Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby polmaise » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:55 pm

Thinblueline wrote:I know some of you might say, "Well, you just made your case for an electronic collar", but that is the easy way out of this conversation. How did the old school boys have such good dogs back in the day without electronic collars, and how did they effectively put an end to these behaviors?

Thanks in advance for entertaining this thread.


It would appear you have the belief in using the e-collar as an aversion/correction ,which it can be.
Them good old school boys' back in the day ,are often found today as New school boys doing the same.
Some well schooled boys during the day and back then ,just made sure the basics disciplines of heel, sit ,stop,re-call were conditioned before any other behaviours were learned.
Then when the e-collar was introduced ,it just overlay ed them same ones .
'Without treats' :wink:
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:00 am

polmaise wrote:
Thinblueline wrote:I know some of you might say, "Well, you just made your case for an electronic collar", but that is the easy way out of this conversation. How did the old school boys have such good dogs back in the day without electronic collars, and how did they effectively put an end to these behaviors?

Thanks in advance for entertaining this thread.


It would appear you have the belief in using the e-collar as an aversion/correction ,which it can be.
Them good old school boys' back in the day ,are often found today as New school boys doing the same.
Some well schooled boys during the day and back then ,just made sure the basics disciplines of heel, sit ,stop,re-call were conditioned before any other behaviours were learned.
Then when the e-collar was introduced ,it just overlay ed them same ones .
'Without treats' :wink:


That is still the correct way to do it if you are going to have a collar dog.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby polmaise » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:48 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:That is still the correct way to do it if you are going to have a collar dog.

So for the OP , you would require a Collar program , If you want a Collar dog.
But since the OP , Doesn't , then the collar is a tool to correct what behaviours has not been learned /or taught by 'Old school methods ' of Heel/Sit/Stay/ re-call/stop etc ?
8)
polmaise
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby shags » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:34 pm

The collar is used to correct ignored commands that have been learned through old school methods. Heel/sit/recall, whatever.
How do you correct what has not been learned? 8)
shags
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:33 pm

Thinblueline wrote:If a guy new to pointing dogs considers all facets of electronic collars, and decides that among the many factors concerning them, he primarily just doesn't want to risk his own ignorance possibly screwing the dog up, then how exactly does he go about training a dog with old school methods with regards to recall rebellion from a long distance, and trash breaking against distractions, such as deer?

In other words, let's say a young dog recalls very well 99% of the time to his name and a whistle when running free or even with a 20 foot check cord at hunting distances, because there has been positive reinforcement every single time with small kibble treats and praise, but that one percent of the time, he gets more interested in something else and refuses to come in to your call or whistle. I know you have to run him down, but what do you do when you get there? Spank him? Put him on his back and yell at him? Grab him by the scruff of the neck? I'm not sure. I know you don't do anything negative if he finally comes back on his own, but I can't find much reading on how to discipline a dog without an electronic collar.

How about chasing deer. I know you can yell "no" at the top of your lungs, but in the likely event his excitement of the chase drowns out your "no", what do you to your dog when he finally comes back or you finally find him? How do you break him of these things?

I know some of you might say, "Well, you just made your case for an electronic collar", but that is the easy way out of this conversation. How did the old school boys have such good dogs back in the day without electronic collars, and how did they effectively put an end to these behaviors?

Thanks in advance for entertaining this thread.


I think if you get 99% compliance that's a big WIN! I don't think NFC, Master Hunters comply 99% of the time. "Old School" trainers had great dogs, no doubt but as a % of great dogs versus "wash outs" was probably not so good. Modern day methods and tools (used properly) most likely provide a better success rate grater than the old school.
User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1409
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:27 pm

polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That is still the correct way to do it if you are going to have a collar dog.

So for the OP , you would require a Collar program , If you want a Collar dog.
But since the OP , Doesn't , then the collar is a tool to correct what behaviours has not been learned /or taught by 'Old school methods ' of Heel/Sit/Stay/ re-call/stop etc ?
8)


Correct. The collar can be used for a single correction and nothing else, if that is what is wanted. You can probably never put the collar on the dog for anything else, but it does work.
User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.


Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 5 guests

| Pedigrees

THIS POST : Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style brought to you by Gun Dog Supply: Dog Training Collars & Hunting Dog Supplies

Click here to tweet this post

  • NOT logged in
  • Gun Dog Training/Discipline/Trash Breaking Old School Style
  • ./viewtopic.php?f=69&t=52379&start=0&sid=6fbb15dfd315423de7005dd18dec59cb