Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
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Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I'm working on gun conditioning the dog as we speak - I know this subject has been beaten to death - and need to know which caliber/gauge gun I need to get my hands on to continue our training.
We've done the loudest .22 blank (short of black powder) and now need to know which shotgun caliber/gauge I need to buy before introducing him to the 12 gauge. I was thinking either the 410 or 20 gauge until I read the following:
According to Handbook of Firearms and Ballistics
0.410
28" barrel150 decibels
26" 150 db
18" 156 db
20 ga
28" 152 db
22" 154 db
12 ga
28" 151 db
18" 161 db
Can anyone out there chime in? Per the handbook, there is apparently very little difference between the decibel levels produced by a 410, 20 ga, and 12 ga, yet most dog trainers suggest working up the calibers/gauges. With that said, if you had to get either the 410 or 20 ga, which would you go with and why?
We've done the loudest .22 blank (short of black powder) and now need to know which shotgun caliber/gauge I need to buy before introducing him to the 12 gauge. I was thinking either the 410 or 20 gauge until I read the following:
According to Handbook of Firearms and Ballistics
0.410
28" barrel150 decibels
26" 150 db
18" 156 db
20 ga
28" 152 db
22" 154 db
12 ga
28" 151 db
18" 161 db
Can anyone out there chime in? Per the handbook, there is apparently very little difference between the decibel levels produced by a 410, 20 ga, and 12 ga, yet most dog trainers suggest working up the calibers/gauges. With that said, if you had to get either the 410 or 20 ga, which would you go with and why?
Last edited by BraqueFrancais115 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
ANY GUAGE, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. I do not recommend any rifle though.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Agree with Ezzy, no rifles.
You're logic, while well intended, is flawed. You're overthinking it. Use any gauge you desire - just don't throw the dog in the deep end by shooting right over him/her. Common sense and an inconspicuous eye on the dog goes a long way.
Edited to add: I would recommend a 20ga. Why? Because it's the only caliber you need to train and hunt.
You're logic, while well intended, is flawed. You're overthinking it. Use any gauge you desire - just don't throw the dog in the deep end by shooting right over him/her. Common sense and an inconspicuous eye on the dog goes a long way.
Edited to add: I would recommend a 20ga. Why? Because it's the only caliber you need to train and hunt.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Tooling wrote:Agree with Ezzy, no rifles.
You're logic, while well intended, is flawed. You're overthinking it. Use any gauge you desire - just don't throw the dog in the deep end by shooting right over him/her. Common sense and an inconspicuous eye on the dog goes a long way.
Edited to add: I would recommend a 20ga. Why? Because it's the only caliber you need to train and hunt.
Thank you for the feedback. I'm only "overthinking it" because all trainers I've talked to and books I've read recommend progressing to the 12 ga, rather than choosing the final gauge and training with it.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Basically, I'm asking because getting the in-between gauge/caliber costs money.Tooling wrote:Then why are you asking if you already know?BraqueFrancais115 wrote:Tooling wrote:Agree with Ezzy, no rifles.
You're logic, while well intended, is flawed. You're overthinking it. Use any gauge you desire - just don't throw the dog in the deep end by shooting right over him/her. Common sense and an inconspicuous eye on the dog goes a long way.
Edited to add: I would recommend a 20ga. Why? Because it's the only caliber you need to train and hunt.
Thank you for the feedback. I'm only "overthinking it" because all trainers I've talked to and books I've read recommend progressing to the 12 ga, rather than choosing the final gauge and training with it.
side note: your reply added little to no value to anyone who has the same question. No need to carry your ego every time you type. Let's keep it objective, please.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
you can buy low report 12 ga rounds ....start with those
winchester makes them “AA low report low recoil” I think walmart even carries them
now understand that the setup is more important than the guage
what I mean by that is the dog should be distracted by a bird flushing or a dummy falling out of the sky when the shot is fired so it’s prey drive is heightened and the dog associated the sound with something pleasant and exciting
in other word don’t just walk up to the dog and fire off a round there is a method to follow
winchester makes them “AA low report low recoil” I think walmart even carries them
now understand that the setup is more important than the guage
what I mean by that is the dog should be distracted by a bird flushing or a dummy falling out of the sky when the shot is fired so it’s prey drive is heightened and the dog associated the sound with something pleasant and exciting
in other word don’t just walk up to the dog and fire off a round there is a method to follow
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Tooling wrote:Then why are you asking if you already know?BraqueFrancais115 wrote:Tooling wrote:Agree with Ezzy, no rifles.
You're logic, while well intended, is flawed. You're overthinking it. Use any gauge you desire - just don't throw the dog in the deep end by shooting right over him/her. Common sense and an inconspicuous eye on the dog goes a long way.
Edited to add: I would recommend a 20ga. Why? Because it's the only caliber you need to train and hunt.
Thank you for the feedback. I'm only "overthinking it" because all trainers I've talked to and books I've read recommend progressing to the 12 ga, rather than choosing the final gauge and training with it.
How about this:
1. Start off with a good dose of Looney Tunes in the afternoon - there's this coyote on there who seems rather fond of Acme Powder Co. laced hijinks to bag a fast bird. Although his plans tend to backfire on him, often; it does not negate the fact that he executes a good deal of percussion blasts for a good 10 or 15 minutes each afternoon. Might be a good way to get pup acclimated to such a thing. Just be careful not to coddle if pup tucks tail and skedaddles.
2. Invest in an invention that is second only to the greatest invention of all-time; the clapper. It is generally accepted that light is a good thing. If your dog begins to associate the loud bang of your hands slapping together with, light - that's a no-brainer - how in the he!! can you go wrong? (spork is the greatest invention, btw)
3. I don't recall the name of them off the top of my head but, there are these little bags of joy given to the world by Confucius who say, "all work and no fun make Jack sad boy". Anyhow, you throw these things on the ground and they go bang. They're brilliant and, a pranksters dream come true. Confucius was a smart man.
4. From here, just use your imagination until you finally graduate to a 32ga shotgun, then a 28, then a 20, then a 16, then a 12, then a 10, until you finally settle upon a fine 8ga shotgun for your Woodcock hunts.
Does that suit you better and also allow you to reconcile advice from people that have been around dogs for awhile?
No need to be snarky with the newer member. Just answer his question - or not.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Nothing ill-intended, at all.
The point of my post is to keep it light, don't overthink, don't get ridiculous and, don't ignore pragmatic advice by getting snarky with someone trying to help you.
If that message isn't clear, I don't know what to say except, good luck with your dog.
The point of my post is to keep it light, don't overthink, don't get ridiculous and, don't ignore pragmatic advice by getting snarky with someone trying to help you.
If that message isn't clear, I don't know what to say except, good luck with your dog.
- gundogguy
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Instead of changing gauges and calibers this system uses distances of ever decreasing lengths to intro pups to gun fire. i could not count the number of times I use this method to
introduce pups of all breeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8iO8iemLw
Best of luck!
introduce pups of all breeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8iO8iemLw
Best of luck!
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Thank you everyone for the much needed wisdom!
I'll go ahead and scrap plans to get a 410 or 20 ga and use my own 12 ga while firing 'Winchester Low Recoil/Noise shells' (AA12FL8) with a focus on the setup - firing at decreasing distances as the dog chases.
I'll go ahead and scrap plans to get a 410 or 20 ga and use my own 12 ga while firing 'Winchester Low Recoil/Noise shells' (AA12FL8) with a focus on the setup - firing at decreasing distances as the dog chases.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Sounds like a good plan
Penny4--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3227
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I don't think you need to start with a smaller gauge, they are all about the same. Distance makes the difference. All blanks and rifles seem have a bigger impact on dogs than shotguns do......Cj
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Update:
On Saturday, my 6 month old pup and I head to the field with the intent to fire off a few Winchester low noise shells at varying distances. Since I didn't have a [human] partner to work with, the strategy was to tie his 30 ft lead to a tree and place quail slightly out of his reach. The pup lunged and barked and wagged his tail showing intense interest in the defenseless bird. I then quickly made my way to the 125 yard marker - while walking closer to the pup, I fired 1 shot every 5 steps or so. He didn't appear fazed one bit! After getting as close as 10 yards away, I realized it was time to take it to the next level.
Starting 125 yards away, I fired off 2.75" 1300+ fps steel shells - at first he wasn't acknowledging them... as I moved closer, however, he flinched and searched for the source of the sound in the distance. His head even followed the echo. I was able to continue - at a much slower pace - until the 25 yard mark. 30 min has elapsed and I could sense his boredom with the quail, which slowly walked towards him while chirping during the whole session.
In order to regain his interest in the birds, he would need to be much more involved with the birds - he needs to get something in his mouth. Around 50 yards from him, I tossed one of the quail* 20 feet in the air and let off a hot round connecting with the tiny creature. Its body went stiff within a cloud of feathers and the little man could not have been more excited. Quickly making my way back to him, I removed the lead from his collar as I gave him the 'fetch' command. He sprinted in the bird's direction and circled around it until finding its carcass. He didn't quite retrieve, but then again, this was the first time he actually attempts to retrieve a dead bird off leash. I repeated this exercise 15 times over the span of that day and the following. The training morphed into exercised involving planted quail and me grabbing quail from my vest then tossing in the air, simulating a flush upon first scent. By the end of the two-day gun conditioning training, I was firing full loads right next to him.
I just wanted to thank everyone here who contributed by providing feedback during the last week. Having known someone who created a gun shy dog, these were by far my most dreaded training sessions. I'm glad you guys were able to give your 2 cents thereby instilling confidence in my ability to properly introduce the pup to the gun.
Thanks again, everyone.
*Coturnix quail are awful for training purposes - the things almost literally fly like stones, hence why they needed to be 'thrown.' A dog owner and his 17-week old GSP happened to be working with bobwhite quail in the very same dog training field. Thanks to them, I had the pleasure of flushing a bobwhite and, for the first time ever, witnessing how well they fly... I'm sticking with bobwhites going forward.
On Saturday, my 6 month old pup and I head to the field with the intent to fire off a few Winchester low noise shells at varying distances. Since I didn't have a [human] partner to work with, the strategy was to tie his 30 ft lead to a tree and place quail slightly out of his reach. The pup lunged and barked and wagged his tail showing intense interest in the defenseless bird. I then quickly made my way to the 125 yard marker - while walking closer to the pup, I fired 1 shot every 5 steps or so. He didn't appear fazed one bit! After getting as close as 10 yards away, I realized it was time to take it to the next level.
Starting 125 yards away, I fired off 2.75" 1300+ fps steel shells - at first he wasn't acknowledging them... as I moved closer, however, he flinched and searched for the source of the sound in the distance. His head even followed the echo. I was able to continue - at a much slower pace - until the 25 yard mark. 30 min has elapsed and I could sense his boredom with the quail, which slowly walked towards him while chirping during the whole session.
In order to regain his interest in the birds, he would need to be much more involved with the birds - he needs to get something in his mouth. Around 50 yards from him, I tossed one of the quail* 20 feet in the air and let off a hot round connecting with the tiny creature. Its body went stiff within a cloud of feathers and the little man could not have been more excited. Quickly making my way back to him, I removed the lead from his collar as I gave him the 'fetch' command. He sprinted in the bird's direction and circled around it until finding its carcass. He didn't quite retrieve, but then again, this was the first time he actually attempts to retrieve a dead bird off leash. I repeated this exercise 15 times over the span of that day and the following. The training morphed into exercised involving planted quail and me grabbing quail from my vest then tossing in the air, simulating a flush upon first scent. By the end of the two-day gun conditioning training, I was firing full loads right next to him.
I just wanted to thank everyone here who contributed by providing feedback during the last week. Having known someone who created a gun shy dog, these were by far my most dreaded training sessions. I'm glad you guys were able to give your 2 cents thereby instilling confidence in my ability to properly introduce the pup to the gun.
Thanks again, everyone.
*Coturnix quail are awful for training purposes - the things almost literally fly like stones, hence why they needed to be 'thrown.' A dog owner and his 17-week old GSP happened to be working with bobwhite quail in the very same dog training field. Thanks to them, I had the pleasure of flushing a bobwhite and, for the first time ever, witnessing how well they fly... I'm sticking with bobwhites going forward.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Sounds like you shot almost a box of shells for a tied up 6 month old pup with quail walking around in front of it as a distraction? This to introduce the dog to gunfire? The fact that he's still good shows he's a nice dog. Consider yourself lucky.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Lucky, indeed.
Might I suggest you look up your local NAVHDA group and, give them a call. There are a lot of friendly people within NAVHDA that will help you with your pup.
Might I suggest you look up your local NAVHDA group and, give them a call. There are a lot of friendly people within NAVHDA that will help you with your pup.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I let the pup run and hunt and shoot when it is busy. Really don't worry much how far as long as it is busy. Quite often will shoot 4 or 5 tines over a couple of days and the pupil be ready to go,
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- greg jacobs
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I do it at 3 months. Use my older dog. I start with a cap gun. Switch to a shot gun with the lead taken out. Quite a bit quieter than a regular round. When I pull the shotgun out the older dog gets all excited so the pup thinks good things are going on. Then switch to reg 12 gauge. When you use an excited older dog he thinks everything is good. I aways do it at 3 months. Never wait till 6 or 8 months. Pups often go through a spooky period about then.
I take about 2 weeks to work through this. I shoot a shot or two each session.
I take about 2 weeks to work through this. I shoot a shot or two each session.
Last edited by greg jacobs on Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Bf 115 I use live birds with gunshot. They go hand and hand. Eventually your dog will see the gun and know it's time. Anyway you do it just preoccupy your dogs mind. Tooling I understand your response but it was rude.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
When you start to hunt the pup, to start with just go by yourself or with 1 friend. Just fire 1 or 2 shots at a bird---NO large barges of shots at a bird. A large group all firing at a bird or a big barge of shots can spook a young dog that is just getting use to guns. Take it slow and keep your number of shots at each bird low until he gets a few hunts under his collar Keep it fun for the pup.
Penny4--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3227
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
- BuckeyeSteve
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Hey Ezzy (or others)...I'm reading some back posts on introducing my dog to gunfire and came across this. I have questions on two subjects:ezzy333 wrote:ANY GUAGE, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. I do not recommend any rifle though.
1. Why "no rifles"? Does that include (I assume it does) even .22's? My plan was to start with a distant 22 and let my wife walk him closer to me as I shot, then I was going to do similar a day or two later with a shotgun. Is the crack of the rifle an issue, or what is the reasoning? I do have one frozen grouse and a bunch of small (4 week) quail at my disposal if they would be any help....but hadn't intended to use birds in the process at first, though I understand the importance of making the dog associate the two later.
2. Another post on this thread said not to intro gunfire between 6-8 months. Unfortunately, Rosco is just over 7 months. Is that a legit concern and I should wait longer, or am I okay to get into gunfire?
Thanks!
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Yes the issue is the crack of the rifle.
Age to introduce the gun has no month ; has to due with the dog's eagerness/ excitement about birds. You want the bird to be what makes the sound acceptable. You could have a 7 month old who still isn't too excited about birds , so no gun intro.
" hadn't intended to use birds in the process at first," quote Buckeye Steve
Your plan #1 is not a good one. I'm sorry.
I let my dogs chase hard after a bird they can't catch as the gun went off. The wife won't be sufficient; find yourself some hard flying pigeons.
Age to introduce the gun has no month ; has to due with the dog's eagerness/ excitement about birds. You want the bird to be what makes the sound acceptable. You could have a 7 month old who still isn't too excited about birds , so no gun intro.
" hadn't intended to use birds in the process at first," quote Buckeye Steve
Your plan #1 is not a good one. I'm sorry.
I let my dogs chase hard after a bird they can't catch as the gun went off. The wife won't be sufficient; find yourself some hard flying pigeons.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
The Perfect Gun Acclimation - worth every penny to get it right. Not much that is more critical than proper bird and gun introductions to a Bird Dog pup.
http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html
http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Do I need to generalize my dog to the gun going off in more than one location, as in completely different fields? I am trying to be as cautious as possible about guns and birds as I don't want a gun-shy dog or one that blinks birds. Don't think I've heard or read that question asked and maybe there's a reason it hasn't, but I'd like to be sure. Just occurred to me while reading this thread.
- Urban_Redneck
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
The decibel scale is logarithmic , the level increase of 10 means that a sound is actually 10 times more intense, or powerful.
- BuckeyeSteve
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Thanks Sharon. I appreciate the input. That's one of the great things about this forum....I have people to stop my often times bad instinctual plans. I'm heading to the city in a little while to check my pigeon trap. I haven't caught any yet, but they're there and I've had the trap in place for a while so hopefully that will change quickly.Sharon wrote:Yes the issue is the crack of the rifle.
Age to introduce the gun has no month ; has to due with the dog's eagerness/ excitement about birds. You want the bird to be what makes the sound acceptable. You could have a 7 month old who still isn't too excited about birds , so no gun intro.
" hadn't intended to use birds in the process at first," quote Buckeye Steve
Your plan #1 is not a good one. I'm sorry.
I let my dogs chase hard after a bird they can't catch as the gun went off. The wife won't be sufficient; find yourself some hard flying pigeons.
Appreciate the advice!
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Eh...I worked with a (very raw, green) pro when I did it with my dog. We just made sure the dog was super excited and started with either a .22 or a blank pistol. Then they did the .410 far away and then close.
I know that the decibels are supposedly less, but someone that knows a lot more about physics can clarify that there's definitely a much bigger boom with a 12 than a .410.
So, to answer your question, I think I'd get a single shot .410 (of the youth hammer variety) to save costs, look for it used. I'd also make sure the dog is amped up about something else. Maybe a pigeon that you can shoot over him.
I know that the decibels are supposedly less, but someone that knows a lot more about physics can clarify that there's definitely a much bigger boom with a 12 than a .410.
So, to answer your question, I think I'd get a single shot .410 (of the youth hammer variety) to save costs, look for it used. I'd also make sure the dog is amped up about something else. Maybe a pigeon that you can shoot over him.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
The more variety the better imo.Compton30 wrote:Do I need to generalize my dog to the gun going off in more than one location, as in completely different fields? I am trying to be as cautious as possible about guns and birds as I don't want a gun-shy dog or one that blinks birds. Don't think I've heard or read that question asked and maybe there's a reason it hasn't, but I'd like to be sure. Just occurred to me while reading this thread.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Hold whatever gun close to the ground it is not as loud
- Featherfinder
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I can tell you are new to the sport. We all were at one time or another so....it's all part of learning. You got away with what could have been a BIG mistake, I believe.
As already mentioned, it does convey that you have a very nice pup there.
One of the most salient suggestions came from Bobman, IMO. Both the 12 gauge softer loads AND focusing on the process were key.
If you are going to join a NAVHDA group, go for it, as long as they don't still utilize the archaic concepts of the "That" book!
There is a good deal of wisdom in this forum. The challenge for a newby - as with any forum - is extracting the many years of learning better ways from, "I've done this with my last 5 dogs and it worked every time." (It's unlikely you will hear that he TRASHED dog #6 with said process blaming the breeder, the pup, the helper, the weather, etc.)
Becoming a decent dog trainer is a journey not a destination. Many of us are at different phases of this journey but we all mean well.
You are a good example for that matter. I believe you could have done this in a away that would have been more effective/less risky BUT it still worked so, "What's the problem, right?"
Anyway, I reiterate, sounds like you have a great prospect there. All the best going forward Sir! If I may, I too suggest you reduce the risks - find a savvy mentor to help you thereby accelerating your learning curve, be it a NAVHDA group or whomever.
Close your eyes and have someone fire a .22 followed by a shotgun, at a distance of about 100 yards. I'm not talking strictly decibels. I might best describe it this way: The sound from any shotgun has a "rounded bark" where-as a .22 or similar projectile based firearm has a "cutting bite". Even a .22 blank can be more harsh on pup than a shotgun IMO.
As already mentioned, it does convey that you have a very nice pup there.
One of the most salient suggestions came from Bobman, IMO. Both the 12 gauge softer loads AND focusing on the process were key.
If you are going to join a NAVHDA group, go for it, as long as they don't still utilize the archaic concepts of the "That" book!
There is a good deal of wisdom in this forum. The challenge for a newby - as with any forum - is extracting the many years of learning better ways from, "I've done this with my last 5 dogs and it worked every time." (It's unlikely you will hear that he TRASHED dog #6 with said process blaming the breeder, the pup, the helper, the weather, etc.)
Becoming a decent dog trainer is a journey not a destination. Many of us are at different phases of this journey but we all mean well.
You are a good example for that matter. I believe you could have done this in a away that would have been more effective/less risky BUT it still worked so, "What's the problem, right?"
Anyway, I reiterate, sounds like you have a great prospect there. All the best going forward Sir! If I may, I too suggest you reduce the risks - find a savvy mentor to help you thereby accelerating your learning curve, be it a NAVHDA group or whomever.
Close your eyes and have someone fire a .22 followed by a shotgun, at a distance of about 100 yards. I'm not talking strictly decibels. I might best describe it this way: The sound from any shotgun has a "rounded bark" where-as a .22 or similar projectile based firearm has a "cutting bite". Even a .22 blank can be more harsh on pup than a shotgun IMO.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Using tossed bagged pigeons with the puppy in full chase mode going away and an assistant firing a small caliber blank at a distance at the same time, muzzle pointed in the opposite direction to start is the safest approach. Then moving the gunfire closer as the pup demonstrates it is having no issues and is learning a positive association between gunfire and birds. Or not if the pup shows any sensitivity.
The link to the DVD I posted above lays it out very clearly. You can always sell the DVD "used" after learning and using the method making the cost approximately $35. Worth all the marbles to get it right.
The link to the DVD I posted above lays it out very clearly. You can always sell the DVD "used" after learning and using the method making the cost approximately $35. Worth all the marbles to get it right.
- Featherfinder
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I'm not sure what the video is for? Averageguy pretty well summed it up. In the early stages, the only variable is how far pup is from you when you fire the gun. The further the better (within reason) at the get-go, as long as pup is still chasing.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
The link is to several Training DVDs including the one I recommended in this Thread Titled "The Perfect Gun Acclimation", specific to this subject of introducing gunfire to a gundog puppy. The method taught in the DVD is the one you ,I and others are recommending in this thread, and the DVD lays it out so that a complete understanding of the process from start to finish is easily comprehended by the Trainer. I started to mention a specific distance in my post but did not as it is always better to know something about the dog first hand and the DVD covers that subject as well.Featherfinder wrote:I'm not sure what the video is for? Averageguy pretty well summed it up. In the early stages, the only variable is how far pup is from you when you fire the gun. The further the better (within reason) at the get-go, as long as pup is still chasing.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
Aaaahhh…very good Averageguy! Sorry, I missed that.
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I want my dogs to connect the gun with birds. I used to do noise conditioning on very young puppies. I don't Believe it has any real benefit.
We now do guns and birds together. we shoot from a distance when the dog is very excited about the bird. I do prefer a shotgun to a blank gun but both work. I don't believe at 100 yds anyone can tell the difference in the gauges...………………….Cj
We now do guns and birds together. we shoot from a distance when the dog is very excited about the bird. I do prefer a shotgun to a blank gun but both work. I don't believe at 100 yds anyone can tell the difference in the gauges...………………….Cj
Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I was looking through this again and noticed something. He tied up the dog with a bird just out of range and fired the gun. What do you think the dog's take on that would be? My thought would be that the dog is seeing the loud noise coming from the bird, wrong! I don't use bird's introducing the gun but 99.9% of everyone else does. Read what they say. Most let the dog find the bird flush it for the dog and fire when the dog get's away chasing the bird. Dog doesn't think to associate the shot with the bird. Now do it as the bird is flushed and your letting your dog know it's the bird that makes that loud noise. I saw on I think it was perfection the folks gun breaking a dog. Guy with the gun got way off and hie partner had the dog and a dead bird to fetch. She threw to bird and once the dog was under way, he fired the gun. Dog hesitated just a moment and looked at the guy then went right back to the bird. You fire a gun around your dog and I can assure you, the dog will hear it. I'd bet well over 90 to maybe 95% of gun shy dogs were made that way with bad gun introduction to the gun. That get's me back to a Delmar saying, pay attention to what your training!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I started long ago, using hand claps at a distance while my terrier and hound puppies were eating. Moved in closer over time assuming no problems were evident. Always worked out fine.
With my GWPs I began play retrieving of homemade puppy bumpers in a hallway or tunnel as soon as they came home. When we moved to outdoors, I would have the Wife fire a .22 crimper in the opposite direction as the puppy was racing to a thrown bumper still in the air starting at a distance of approx 60 yards. Always worked out well, and each puppy developed a positive association with gunfire and retrieving, which was always my objective at the outset. I move my conditioning on to firing a blank while the pup is out searching. I will have also tossed a dead bird into cover and when the pup comes running back towards the gunfire I motion with my hand and tell them hunt dead and they do. It builds an excellent positive association between gunfire and retrieving which pays huge dividends in recovering downed birds.
Since those times I have attended Clinics, and day to day working sessions at Perfection Kennel and watched them using the method I touched on in my post above. It is the highly similar approach Sharon and FF posted, and I believe it is the lowest risk approach I have seen in action thus far. I watched bagged release pigeons or quail thrown towards the ground in front of the dog, inciting a chase as they flapped away in flight, with gunfire in the opposite direction at a considerable distance as the dog gave chase, cure several dogs which arrived there with gun sensitivity problems. It will be the approach I use from here on. I think the common denominator is a dog with prey drive fully engaged when gun goes off at a distance.
With my GWPs I began play retrieving of homemade puppy bumpers in a hallway or tunnel as soon as they came home. When we moved to outdoors, I would have the Wife fire a .22 crimper in the opposite direction as the puppy was racing to a thrown bumper still in the air starting at a distance of approx 60 yards. Always worked out well, and each puppy developed a positive association with gunfire and retrieving, which was always my objective at the outset. I move my conditioning on to firing a blank while the pup is out searching. I will have also tossed a dead bird into cover and when the pup comes running back towards the gunfire I motion with my hand and tell them hunt dead and they do. It builds an excellent positive association between gunfire and retrieving which pays huge dividends in recovering downed birds.
Since those times I have attended Clinics, and day to day working sessions at Perfection Kennel and watched them using the method I touched on in my post above. It is the highly similar approach Sharon and FF posted, and I believe it is the lowest risk approach I have seen in action thus far. I watched bagged release pigeons or quail thrown towards the ground in front of the dog, inciting a chase as they flapped away in flight, with gunfire in the opposite direction at a considerable distance as the dog gave chase, cure several dogs which arrived there with gun sensitivity problems. It will be the approach I use from here on. I think the common denominator is a dog with prey drive fully engaged when gun goes off at a distance.
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
I only use a 12 gauge as that's what I shoot. Initially I will have it fired quite some distance from the pup when it's distracted by a bird and gradually move closer. A .22 is more traumatic to a dog than a shotgun as it has a sharper pitch. Eventually I do introduce a .22 as I use a dummy launcher which takes .22 ramsets but not in the early days.
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
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Re: Gun Conditioning: Gauges/Caliber between .22 and 12 ga
A .22 crimper blank is far less report than a 12 gauge and nothing like the crack of a .22 rifle cartridge. That is why I start with it. I use my .28 gauge when I move to a shotgun.