best overall dog?

DogsOfMn · Post by **DogsOfMn** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Hello,

The name is Rick and I am new to hunting breeds. I'm in the market for a another dog and I wanted to get your guys opinion before I make a purchase. TI plan to start hunting this year, maybe some duck hunting/ coon hunting. I would like a dog that could be a hiking/jogging partner and one that could adapt to the cold weather. I want something that isn't a lab. I'm really interested in the German shorthaired pointer and German wiredhaired pointer.

Thanks!

Mike da Carpenter · Post by **Mike da Carpenter** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:53 pm

I was a lab guy (when I had a lab and was younger and addicted to duck hunting). Now with 2 teenager boys who love to bird hunt and every small game critter they can (coon included), I am a GSP Guy. We pick up the new puppy this Saturday (7 weeks old).

I got tired of “playing” dog on our SD bird hunts, and the wife and kids twisted my arm a little to much and I caved in to the pressure.

I went with the GSP, because of the energy and love of hunting. To see a dog work, is a pleasurable experience to me and it gives the entire family something to do together. Just wish it were a bit warmer to help the potty training go easier for him.

12920994-D30B-47A6-B0C3-BC109C9DAF58.jpeg

Bedight · Post by **Bedight** » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 pm

Wow, you need one dog to hunt ducks and 'Coons?

I've seen some individual retrievers that would hunt fur, but never seen a 'Coon dog that would retrieve ducks in the cold. I don't know of any breeds that have been bred to water retrieve and tree coons.

If you are talking about retrieving in cold weather and water, your options, IMO, are : Labs or Chessies, maybe a Golden, Portuguese Water Dog or Anerican Water Spaniel. I have heard of individual dogs of each of these breeds that hunt fur as well as retrieve and, of course, all dogs can be trained to do some things that aren't characteristic of the breed.

If I was going to have one dog to handle cold ducks, warm coons and maybe an upland bird or two, I'd find a Chessie or Lab whose parents exibit very high prey drive; he/she will retrieve anything in any kind of weather without much training, and could be induced to chase (and catch if within first 60 yards) Coons and any other fur critter.

Best case you'll end up with a great retriever and an a fair Coon dog............Worst case you'll get a very good retriever and a poor but enthusiastic Coon dog.

Let us know how this goes. Sounds like a fun training challenge...........

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:38 am

I hunt pointers for grouse/woodcock, and some preserve pheasant during heavy snow years. Although I will shoot a hare that they point. Smart dogs that have a 100-250 yard range in the grouse woods and 50 yards in the preserve. They have retrieved ducks, geese and are steady in the blind during waterfowl trips. I have had them on the trapline and they stay at heel and locate cats/canines on drags, also urine posts/caches and other set locations. Pretty much great family dogs that are intelligent and easy to train, no heavy hand required. Once they are broke, just make sure you are consistent with the basic good citizen commands daily, road them a few times a week, couple birds or game contacts a month and you should have a great dog whatever breed you choose.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:40 am

one that could adapt to the cold weather. I'm really interested in the German shorthaired pointer and German wiredhaired pointer.

What does "adapt to the cold weather" mean? Pretty clear that a wirehair is a better cold weather dog,but plenty of shorthairs do fine in cold weather,especially when young, if they keep moving. But "adapt"? Are you going to keep this dog outside? I hear Minnesota gets a little chilly.

And, uh, why is this under "dog stuff for sale"?

KCKLH · Post by **KCKLH** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:56 am

Yeah if youre looking for a cold weather versatile breed go with the wirehair. My GSPs growing up did alright in the cold and while Ive never hunted coons anywhere but our trash cans we had one dog that waged a personal war against them. Big difference between a dog that kills coons and a dog that trails trees and bays though. Ive also heard GWPs are arguably the most fur oriented breed of bird dog. Still, nothing beats a lab for waterfowl in cold water and if youre new to training dogs a lab is probably the easiest breed. If you just occasionally hunt pheasants plenty of good waterfowl retrievers have been pressed into occasional flushing duties as well.

If you want something for coons just get a good old fashioned bluetick or walker hound. Just wouldnt recommend them if you live in the city lol.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:47 pm

It is my understanding that some of the cur guys, will cross some bird dog in from time to time. There was a cur that won a lot of the big hunts several years ago name 'Next Level Blondy', I believe that he was half GSP. A few years before that there was one named 'Pay Day', I think. He was half E Pointer. I would at least contact someone with some knowledge and ask them if your combination is possible.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:59 pm

You're on the right track thinking GWP, DD, PP, Griff.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:07 pm

rinker wrote:It is my understanding that some of the cur guys, will cross some bird dog in from time to time. There was a cur that won a lot of the big hunts several years ago name 'Next Level Blondy', I believe that he was half GSP. A few years before that there was one named 'Pay Day', I think. He was half E Pointer. I would at least contact someone with some knowledge and ask them if your combination is possible.

Oh Boy!!!!!! .Don't want to start that again..................CJ

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:47 pm

LOL Exactly!!

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:49 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:You're on the right track thinking GWP, DD, PP, Griff.

I agree. Based on what the OP is saying he wants to hunt -and when- I don't think a GSP would be the best choice. (I've had 2 GSPs and no regrets , but I didn't use them to retrieve ducks when it was cold.)

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 pm

Sharon wrote: Based on what the OP is saying he wants to hunt /and when I don't think a GSP would be the best choice. (I've had 2 GSPs and no regrets , but I didn't use them to retrieve ducks when it was cold.)

Probably best with a 'Coon Hound' . ?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:13 pm

He needs two dogs : a coon hound and a DD.

FurIsFun · Post by **FurIsFun** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:50 pm

Definitely a GWP x GSP... :roll:
I suspect it wont be any real serious hunting, and I also suspect you really need/want a good companion that may help grub up some meat on occasion.
I'd advise that you go hunting with folks in your area that have dogs, and see how they act when not hunting as well, then decide what you really want/need.
Most any dog can be taught to fetch, and with time spent in the woods and some encouragement most of them will take to hunting.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:11 pm

about 100 years ago the WHV was born from crossing a Vizsla from other pointing breeds .
When you want all sorts to get the niche to suit an individual ,often you are really best with fido from the pound .

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:27 pm

Well Rick, we are going to go around the gamete yet again with a broad request like that. Typically, many answers will come from folk justifying why they have what they have rather than what you might need. A pointer...?!? A GSP...?!? For cold weather duck hunting....!?!?!
So, let's try to better identify what you personally need. When you say adapt to the cold I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that you mean this dog needs to handle late season goose/duck hunting on the great lakes. Or perhaps you're on the north/east coast in late season hunting icy waters for sea ducks?
If you're jumping puddle ducks over ponds or small lakes in late season (snow possibly)...ditto.
If you field hunt geese and ducks in the snow, that could be yet another number of breeds.
As for the coons, get a coon hound. I'm not saying you can't teach your waterfowling dog to hunt coons. Look at guys the use mutts for awesome squirrel hunting! What I am saying is that the aggravation does not typically give you a good ROI. Far too often those jack-of-all-trades dogs are truly masters of none. Or...you just have to lower your expectations.

May I ask why you eliminated what might be your best bet (Lab) at least for ducks and a wide variety of other hunting venues?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:55 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:You're on the right track thinking GWP, DD, PP, Griff.

I agree with this. I've never owned any of these breeds but have helped with the training of a few, especially the GWP . This is quite a popular breed with some gamekeepers on this side of the pond because they tend to be pretty tough ....better than most GSP's in really cold weather and they will catch and kill foxes and feral cats in addition to doing "proper" gundog work.

Bill T.

bustingcover · Post by **bustingcover** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:02 pm

My gwp will track and tree coons if we're hunting in a fur area with no birds. Its annoying put one up a tree last month and I had to walk 800yards to go release him. But if thats something you want could be nice. I'd say go with the gwp.

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:58 pm

The reason I asked for clarification is that some of the late season waterfowling on large bodies of water (tall waves) can be very hard even on Labs. In certain applications the Chessy is the preferred breed because of it's toughness in that icy deep water. If you were to hunt a GWP, WPG, DD or PP in these environs, you'd be sending your dog to it's death. All I'm saying is, more information from the OP would go a long way towards verifying that the wire-haired breeds might or might not be the best bet. Only he can answer:
- where on the map does he hunt?
- how late into the duck season does he hunt?
- does he do more coon hunting than duck hunting?
- does he duck hunt large bodies of water or somel puddles & fields?

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:29 am

I'm a bit reticent to suggest anything at this juncture as well because the (early info) initial breed I might have suggested is a Lab which the OP excluded from the get-go. In my past experience, I have found that some guys/gals have really already decided on a personal favorite and are more-or-less looking for support/justification in that choice - be it the best one for them or not.
One chap hunted ducks and geese (early season) mostly, but hunted the local club for pheasants once and awhile. I suggest a springer or Lab. He left unimpressed. He returned to show me his new GSP. His Uncle had one and he remembered it fondly from his early days afield. Deep down...he was going to get a GSP, regardless.
Had another chap come over (many years ago) when I had a litter of setters on the ground. He said that because of business, he only had time to hunt pheasants at the local club and the occasional ducks at his winter cottage. I denied him a pup explaining it wasn't the right dog for him. He left very unhappy.
He came back a very happy camper just one year later to show me his handsome Lab...and to thank me for my brutal honesty.
Be honest with yourself about the actual application of said dog, first. Then search out the breed.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:50 pm

For what he is wanting, I would be looking at a DD.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 pm

A Standard Poodle would fit all the requirements .

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:46 pm

polmaise wrote:A Standard Poodle would fit all the requirements .

Do you have any that actually hunt?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:06 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
polmaise wrote:A Standard Poodle would fit all the requirements .
Do you have any that actually hunt?

Personally No , neither does the OP .
That doesn't mean I haven't or wouldn't . It also doesn't mean that the OP can't or couldn't either.
It just means the breed would fit all the requirements.

Bedight · Post by **Bedight** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:01 pm

Re: Poodles

Coincidently, encountered a duck hunter on the Skagit River Delta ( Western Washington), today, with a Standard Poodle doing a great job of retrieving cripples from the fast, colds, big Skagit River.

After the hunt, tagged up with him at the trucks, turns out he's from South Carolina, and breeds and trains Standard Poodles as versatile hunting dogs. Claims his dogs hunt fur, tree coons and will retrieve just about anything. After watching the dog chase some sort of weasel critter around the parking area until he went to ground, I have no doubts about his prey drive, speed, aggressiveness or voice.

It appears that there may be strains of Poodles that can hunt Ducks and Coons.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:08 pm

Bedight wrote:Re: Poodles

Coincidently, encountered a duck hunter on the Skagit River Delta ( Western Washington), today, with a Standard Poodle doing a great job of retrieving cripples from the fast, colds, big Skagit River.

After the hunt, tagged up with him at the trucks, turns out he's from South Carolina, and breeds and trains Standard Poodles as versatile hunting dogs. Claims his dogs hunt fur, tree coons and will retrieve just about anything. After watching the dog chase some sort of weasel critter around the parking area until he went to ground, I have no doubts about his prey drive, speed, aggressiveness or voice.

It appears that there may be strains of Poodles that can hunt Ducks and Coons.

Don't happen to know he or his kennel's name?

Bedight · Post by **Bedight** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:40 am

Billy Rochambeau (sic?). Address and phone number are on my desk at home. I'm in San Diego on Business. Be back on Tuesday. Will PM it to you then.

russ · Post by **russ** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:33 am

get you a Kemmer Mt. Cur

great all around dogs that aim to please.

Bedight · Post by **Bedight** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:02 am

DogsofMN,

I've left several messages for Rochambeau, but no replies. If he calls I'll PM you with any news....................

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:10 pm

Best overall dog is the one I have right now. Squirt and Stormy are tied!

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:42 pm

DonF wrote:Best overall dog is the one I have right now. Squirt and Stormy are tied!

Don't want to hijack this thread, but Don your point would be more effective with pictures. (and I do enjoy pictures of Stormy!)

seadog · Post by **seadog** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:51 am

Every GWP or DD that I had will tree fur and bark treed as well as break ice ,

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:41 am

Meller wrote:
DonF wrote:Best overall dog is the one I have right now. Squirt and Stormy are tied!
Don't want to hijack this thread, but Don your point would be more effective with pictures. (and I do enjoy pictures of Stormy!)

Missy Bear is my farm dog. Stopped in for a drink and a bite to eat abut a year ago and never left!

Baby Squirt.

Stormy at about 1yr

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:18 pm

Now that's a lot more effective!

JONOV · Post by **JONOV** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Featherfinder wrote:The reason I asked for clarification is that some of the late season waterfowling on large bodies of water (tall waves) can be very hard even on Labs. In certain applications the Chessy is the preferred breed because of it's toughness in that icy deep water. If you were to hunt a GWP, WPG, DD or PP in these environs, you'd be sending your dog to it's death. All I'm saying is, more information from the OP would go a long way towards verifying that the wire-haired breeds might or might not be the best bet. Only he can answer:
- where on the map does he hunt?
- how late into the duck season does he hunt?
- does he do more coon hunting than duck hunting?
- does he duck hunt large bodies of water or somel puddles & fields?

His username indicates he's in the Midwest (MN specifically.) In any case, its a very rare hunt that (most) DD's, GWP's, WPG's wouldn't be up to the task due to the elements. I have seen a few GWP's and DD's that are slick or thin coated, but you can hedge your bets on that one looking at both parents, and I've seen more that have harsher, denser, thicker coats than labs, to rival Chessies. Opportunities for big water hunts are limited in the Midwest, Devils Lake or LOTW are going to be about it. Diver hunts can be had on the great lakes but I don't think most people dog hunt with those? Anyhow, its kind of specialized, not something a guy looking to get into it is going to jump right into.

In any case, a 10 acre pothole gets just as cold, colder actually, and it happens a lot faster. All water freezes at the same temperature...

Plenty of people down here duck hunt with their GSP's, but in MN I wouldn't. I'd look at a GWP/DD.

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 am

His username indicates he's in the Midwest (MN specifically.) In any case, its a very rare hunt that (most) DD's, GWP's, WPG's wouldn't be up to the task due to the elements. I have seen a few GWP's and DD's that are slick or thin coated, but you can hedge your bets on that one looking at both parents, and I've seen more that have harsher, denser, thicker coats than labs, to rival Chessies. Opportunities for big water hunts are limited in the Midwest, Devils Lake or LOTW are going to be about it. Diver hunts can be had on the great lakes but I don't think most people dog hunt with those? Anyhow, its kind of specialized, not something a guy looking to get into it is going to jump right into.

In any case, a 10 acre pothole gets just as cold, colder actually, and it happens a lot faster. All water freezes at the same temperature...

Plenty of people down here duck hunt with their GSP's, but in MN I wouldn't. I'd look at a GWP/DD.
JONOV Rank: Junior Hunter Posts: 91Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 amLocation: Raleigh, NC

JONOV, where I live might have little to do with where I prefer to hunt. A dog's coat "harshness" has little to do with the essence of a Labs coat or a Chessie's coat - both being bred for centuries to handle sub-zero waters-based hunting as their most salient forte rather than one aspect of their versatility.
Your presumption that folk don't use dogs for great lakes waterfowling (both divers and/or puddle ducks) is incorrect.
It is important to consider that some folk waterfowl in heated blinds with insulated floating vests on their dogs and a pile of towels to dry off their dog after every retrieve. We must ensure we are comparing apples-to-apples.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:36 am

Your question is like asking guys what manufacture of truck should they get! Everyone has an opinion.....bottom line you have to make the call!

Whatever dog you get, be sure to search for a breeder that breeds dogs for the 'field'! Many breeders focus on show dogs not field dogs....your odds of getting a dog with exceptional prey drive and good nose, is with someone who breeds specifically for that...

I have been running Golden Retrievers for over 25 years. I run them in hunt tests and of course hunt with them. They stand up to cold and rough terrain. I get them from breeders who have proven blood lines for field champions, so prey drive and good nose is a high probability with these dogs. In training we work hard at training dogs away from fur bearing animals such as deer, raccoons, etc.

That's where I think trying to find a dog to hunt birds and raccoons is problematic. Once a dog is trained to follow a specific scent, they will follow it whenever they find it! They cannot turn those instincts off when you decided to go duck hunting.....

So I say you need two dogs and coon hound and something good at waterfowl....like a lab or Golden (Other waterfowl breeds can be great dogs, but you will find more field breeders with Golden's and Lab's because they are do popular.....play the odds here!

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:08 am

Timewise65 wrote:Your question is like asking guys what manufacture of truck should they get! .....

Considering he wasn't interested in a Lab, the question was like asking.......what truck should I get, I want something that isn't a Chevy or Ford.......

JONOV · Post by **JONOV** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:16 am

Timewise65 wrote:Your question is like asking guys what manufacture of truck should they get! Everyone has an opinion.....bottom line you have to make the call!

Whatever dog you get, be sure to search for a breeder that breeds dogs for the 'field'! Many breeders focus on show dogs not field dogs....your odds of getting a dog with exceptional prey drive and good nose, is with someone who breeds specifically for that...

I have been running Golden Retrievers for over 25 years. I run them in hunt tests and of course hunt with them. They stand up to cold and rough terrain. I get them from breeders who have proven blood lines for field champions, so prey drive and good nose is a high probability with these dogs. In training we work hard at training dogs away from fur bearing animals such as deer, raccoons, etc.

That's where I think trying to find a dog to hunt birds and raccoons is problematic. Once a dog is trained to follow a specific scent, they will follow it whenever they find it! They cannot turn those instincts off when you decided to go duck hunting.....

So I say you need two dogs and coon hound and something good at waterfowl....like a lab or Golden (Other waterfowl breeds can be great dogs, but you will find more field breeders with Golden's and Lab's because they are do popular.....play the odds here!

I love a field bred swamp collie...I looked hard for one but was unwilling to travel and wanted to meet at least one parent before putting down a deposit...

To your point about hunting coons...How is it different than the thousands of people that take their lab/gsp/gwp/dd pheasant hunting and duck hunting? The dog is trained to sit by you when you duck hunt and not search the slough for pheasants.

Lots of DD people do just that, take the dog bird hunting, he points a pheasant, they shoot it, points a rabbit, kill that too, bumps a coyote and they kill that too...I see enough pictures to believe it.

My main concern in a dog that gets a fur fetish is cutting a hunting trip short because I have to get an ear sewed/glued up. I mean, people have enough trouble with porcupines/skunks without pursuing them. Boar coons get big.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:35 pm

JONOV wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:Lots of DD people do just that, take the dog bird hunting, he points a pheasant, they shoot it, points a rabbit, kill that too, bumps a coyote and they kill that too...I see enough pictures to believe it.

My main concern in a dog that gets a fur fetish is cutting a hunting trip short because I have to get an ear sewed/glued up. I mean, people have enough trouble with porcupines/skunks without pursuing them. Boar coons get big.

My experience with Golden's and Lab's is to a dog, a bird, is a bird, is bird! My dogs will scent any bird scent cone it finds...they are trained on ducks, chuckars, pheasent, and quail...yet when I take them with me dove hunting, no matter! If I drop a dove in a thicket of cover, they will go in, scent it, and bring it out....they constantly amaze me, as I think most good dogs do while hunting...

But my dogs have kicked up rabbits and even a couple of deer....they are startled, but they will not chase or scent! They know better and they are always on ecollar just in case....I have heard of guys losing dogs when they chase deer....I will never let that happen....

I agree with most all you said....though....

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:54 pm

If there was a best overall dog it would be the only breed out there. Any well bred gun dog can be moulded to hunt whatever game you want. The key is exposure and repetition. Get the dog you like looking at.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm

DogsOfMn wrote:Hello,

I'm really interested in the German shorthaired pointer and German wiredhaired pointer.

Thanks!

Ahh ! So it's a Cross breed that you are really looking for

Up North · Post by **Up North** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Doesn’t someone have one of those in the works.