What do you think of the land quality where you hunt?

[JonBailey]

Hunters need so much land to be able to hunt. The land also has to hold game or there is no use hunting it.

You simply can't hunt without the necessary proper and practical land to do so, period.

More than dogs, guns, ammunition, shooting skills and dog training, land is single most important asset to hunting.

Without decent real estate to even hunt on in the fist place, $2,000 shotguns and $3,000 birds dogs are pointless, no pun intended.

In America there are two kinds of land: public and private.

Very few privileged Americans own many acres of huntable property. These people have much power and control.

It seems as the private land will always provide the best hunting experience if you have privilege to use it:
better chance of bagging more game and better-quality meat as well. You're going to be able to use lead shot as well
on private land. No magnet-wielding bureaucrat is going to trouble you on private land.

In my home state of Idaho, there is a program between the fish n game and private landowners called Access Yes!.

They might call it something different in your home state: private land that is open to the public for hunting through cooperation with the fish and game.

What do YOU think of such "Access Yes!" private land to hunt on?

Have you hunted on such land?

Have you even limited out on this land? (Taken the maximum that the game regs allow.)

Were you able to harvest any desirable game species on this kind of land that you enjoyed as table fare? I'm not talking about nasty old crows or pigeons but perhaps, doves, quail, grouse and pheasant?

[cjhills]

Jon:
Most of the people I know who are actually hunters, hunt whatever land is available to them.
Ninety five percent of my hunting in the western states has been on public land. Unless you want to pay 100 dollars and up day per gun, your options are pretty much public land. Remember no matter how much you pay to hunt wild birds on private land you can only shoot a limit legally.
From Your posts, It seems your goal is to shoot birds for food. If so your best bet might be a preserve or the local meat market. The birds will be well fed and fat. They don't have to work so hard to survive so they won't be so tough. They also cost considerably less.
Personally i don't find private land to be a better hunting experience than public.You do need to put in some effort to find where the birds are. But that is why it is called hunting. I have never hunted in Idaho, but I would bet I could find excellent bplacescto hunt there without paying for accesss. Good Luck..........Cj

[Mountaineer]

The land is routinely good...the use or management of it is not always wise and, that is for more than a hunted species or hunter’s needs. Diversity in habitat helps all, as a start.

You may mean access more than “land”.

“Shotguns and birddogs” are not pointless....targets and trials abound....as another start.

No, I would say there are three types of land, at least....Public, Private and Corporate. the last is a small but often important point and, difference.

“Privelege, power and control” sound like an agenda is hiding.

No, Public land can be prime hunting....just depends.

Many states have cooperative programs with Private or Corporate landowners.
I have hunted such many times.
I believe I have limited out as well tho that involves a bit of the luck o’ the draw, timing, species and more...as well as being the weakest base for any memories. Some of us have our own definition of “limiting out” based upon reality in the woods or on the shortgrass.

[averageguy]

I hunt anywhere and everywhere I can. Private, Public, Permission Granted or Paid Access to Private, State Funded Leased Private that available to the Public. The further you get from population centers and interstate highways the better the quality of hunting on public lands. Research and legwork (literally) payoff. In Idaho you will have no problem finding quality hunting on public lands if you apply yourself.

I am not some form of landed Gentry you have referenced several times in your posts (most landowners are not), but I had a goal from a young age to own and live on a farm and do. I accomplished this goal the old fashioned way - I worked and saved for it. My Farm cannot and will not provide a seasons worth of upland bird hunting but it keeps me busy year round and provides excellent Whitetail, fur and turkey hunting, and a little bit of upland and waterfowl as well.

I wonder if you will bring your attitude of "elitism" towards landowners with you should you ever knock on a farmer or rancher's door and ask for permission to hunt, Jon? I suggest you don't, it is a very unsavory and ignorant attitude unlikely to be met with the kindness you are requesting of them.

[JonBailey]

I hunt anywhere and everywhere I can. Private, Public, Permission Granted or Paid Access to Private, State Funded Leased Private that available to the Public. The further you get from population centers and interstate highways the better the quality of hunting on public lands. Research and legwork (literally) payoff. In Idaho you will have no problem finding quality hunting on public lands if you apply yourself.

I am not some form of landed Gentry you have referenced several times in your posts (most landowners are not), but I had a goal from a young age to own and live on a farm and do. I accomplished this goal the old fashioned way - I worked and saved for it. My Farm cannot and will not provide a seasons worth of upland bird hunting but it keeps me busy year round and provides excellent Whitetail, fur and turkey hunting, and a little bit of upland and waterfowl as well.

I wonder if you will bring your attitude of "elitism" towards landowners with you should you ever knock on a farmer or rancher's door and ask for permission to hunt, Jon? I suggest you don't, it is a very unsavory and ignorant attitude unlikely to be met with the kindness you are requesting of them.

I never said land-owning was bad but most Americans own no more than a 1/5 to 1/4 acre parcel in a subdivision OR they pay rent. I am grateful for the landowners in Idaho who have opened up their land for hunters through the fish and game program. Whether hunting on such land is actually productive, I have yet to know.

[ezzy333]

I have a problem before we even get stated on this one. What do you mean when you say "land quality"? Quality for what? I pick up in your post that you may be thinking quality means good hunting land and then you also indicate the lands connection to quality of the game that comes off of it. It is very difficult in my mind to get into the post when you start so many with a list of facts and yet you admit you have no experience or knowledge of hunting. It just seems strange to see the list and think they have any validity when you have already stated you don't have any of that knowledge. I try not to let that influence me since I really do like to help people learn and to share my experience. But then I run into the conflict of disputing the correctness of the stated facts. For instance, the elite owners of land. Where does the connection of that come from other than maybe reading the old time history books of Europe that date back a thousand years. In the past ten years I have sold or given away to my children several hundred of acres of land they can hunt, however, they did help buy it in years past. I do not think we are elite as I worked my tail off and had some luck to be able to afford that land in the first place. Another take is I am and always have been involved in farming ing many different capacities, so when I see "quality land" stated, mu first thoughts are growing crops to feed the world and not how many pheasants or doves there are, even though they are nice additions that we made every effort to support.

I have found the conflict we continue to hear and read about between the farmers and conservationist is not as prevalent or severe as much of what you read. The differences often lie in what the purpose of the land management is and as a farmer the game birds took second place when in completion with raising quality and quantity of grain and fiber. After all, those are pretty much the purpose if we are to eat and be sheltered. Often there are ways to do a better job of each at the same time and that is what those articles are really about but because of the pre-conceived ideas we enter into these discussions with they offer lack the accuracy that they should.

This is nothing more than a long way of saying that until we can fully describe "Quality Land" definition and agree on that, we can not answer the questions you ask, especially after you have already stated your answers in your list of facts that are less than accurate from most peoples experiences.

Ezzy

[JonBailey]

I have a problem before we even get stated on this one. What do you mean when you say "land quality"? Quality for what? I pick up in your post that you may be thinking quality means good hunting land and then you also indicate the lands connection to quality of the game that comes off of it. It is very difficult in my mind to get into the post when you start so many with a list of facts and yet you admit you have no experience or knowledge of hunting. It just seems strange to see the list and think they have any validity when you have already stated you don't have any of that knowledge. I try not to let that influence me since I really do like to help people learn and to share my experience. But then I run into the conflict of disputing the correctness of the stated facts. For instance, the elite owners of land. Where does the connection of that come from other than maybe reading the old time history books of Europe that date back a thousand years. In the past ten years I have sold or given away to my children several hundred of acres of land they can hunt, however, they did help buy it in years past. I do not think we are elite as I worked my tail off and had some luck to be able to afford that land in the first place. Another take is I am and always have been involved in farming ing many different capacities, so when I see "quality land" stated, mu first thoughts are growing crops to feed the world and not how many pheasants or doves there are, even though they are nice additions that we made every effort to support.

I have found the conflict we continue to hear and read about between the farmers and conservationist is not as prevalent or severe as much of what you read. The differences often lie in what the purpose of the land management is and as a farmer the game birds took second place when in completion with raising quality and quantity of grain and fiber. After all, those are pretty much the purpose if we are to eat and be sheltered. Often there are ways to do a better job of each at the same time and that is what those articles are really about but because of the pre-conceived ideas we enter into these discussions with they offer lack the accuracy that they should.

This is nothing more than a long way of saying that until we can fully describe "Quality Land" definition and agree on that, we can not answer the questions you ask, especially after you have already stated your answers in your list of facts that are less than accurate from most peoples experiences.

Ezzy

Well, quality land to hunt on means you don't sit at a dove stand all day long in the heat and get skunked. And yes, quality, has much to do with the meat that actually lands on the dinner plate in the end.

It means an abundance of game animals and birds that taste good, yes.

I refuse to dump a bunch of money in to guns, training and dogs UNTIL I have FIRST secured the USE of land which I have actual access to that PROMISES a freezer full of delicious game per season.

It's like prospecting for gold. There's a either truckload of delicious doves, pheasants and grouse in them thar fields or there isn't.

Finding prospective PLACES for ME to HUNT in advance where the HUNTING is GOOD is of top priority BEFORE I even decide to take the sport up in ernest.

In other words, why buy a new boat if there are no bodies of water around? Why take up snowmobiling or skiing if you live where there is no snow?

Why spend money on guns, equipment, dogs and such if there is not even an accessible place with game to begin with?

I need to explore all the possibilities first.

I look at hunting as an economic investment that should pay dividends.

The more you get to know me the more you will realize that I am a BEAN COUNTER.

I am business minded about the whole affair, people.

I gave up fishing years ago because I got skunked 90% of the time. But the prospect of killing something with a gun seems more exciting as long as there is even something to kill
in the first place that will taste good on the table and provide a generous portion size for my appetite like a hungry lion.

We all know how small doves are. If you don't take a limit there is not enough meat to even bother hunting.

[JonBailey]

Hunters need so much land to be able to hunt. The land also has to hold game or there is no use hunting it.

What is there not to understand about the sentence above?

The same logic applies to bodies of water and fishing.

If you fish on a lake that is all fished out, you will likely CATCH no more than a cold.

Some bodies of water are stocked with fish by the government. I will have to call my fish and game to see if they STOCK any lands available for public hunting with birds likewise.

I never meant to infer that landlowers are good or bad people but my impression from talking with people in the past as well as reading a few hunting books has always been that farmland (private) is prime land for game. I do know how to read.

I am just wondering if I can EXPECT to find delicious birds in decent numbers on any of the ACCESS YES! lands I mentioned above.

I want to KNOW much more before I invest money into hunting ahead of time before it's too late. I need to sort out all the caveats of the sport

before I actually commit to it. I am not yet committed to hunting.

[JonBailey]

It is very difficult in my mind to get into the post when you start so many with a list of facts and yet you admit you have no experience or knowledge of hunting.

Whatever "facts" I have are mostly book knowledge.

It sounds like taking up hunting might be a gamble. You may get lucky or consistently end up with an empty game bag day after day, week after week, season after season.

I am trying to assess the risks vs rewards of taking up hunting.

My interests in it mainly for the meat, folks, not to merely show off some pretty shotgun.

I honestly don't really know what a new SERIOUS hunter should EXPECT.

If I do get into hunting I want to be shrewd and serious about the whole thing.

[averageguy]

Well Jon, 3 of 4 persons who commented in this thread picked up your sniping comment on private landowners, so I guess I did not imagine it. Moving on.

I moved 3 years ago. Have been exploring new territory ever since. I also retooled in the bird dog department and have been striking out on upland/waterfowl hunts with my pup in new states and territory as well.

You use the keyboard alot but I wonder if you are using it in the best ways. Idaho Fish & Game website is where you should be spending alot of time. Lots of information as to your hunting options, maps, phone numbers.

I have assembled a binder of public area maps in the area I moved to. Called the local wildlife biologists for each and learned a great deal from those conversations. Driven many mile to go look at them, walk on them and ultimately hunt on them. Have had some dry runs, some very productive ones and a majority which fall between those end points. I enjoy it and keep at it. Nothing unique in what I am doing and it is the pattern you need to follow if you are serious.

Approaching Sport Hunting as an investment - STOP IMMEDIATELY and Proceed No Further if that is your mindset. I hunt waterfowl, upland birds, fur, and Big Game annually and it is hands down the least cost effective meat I will ever eat. Upland bird hunting in Idaho can certainly be done in grand fashion on a working man's budget, but it will never be cost effective compared to the grocery store.

[Mountaineer]

A new hunter should expect a learning curve, failure, success, happiness, sadness and more...they should consider an approach to learning from other than a preconceived or poorly conceived base of expectations.
Food....or obtaining it, is not, should not imo be all of what drives a birdhunter.....food, is simply a wonderful added plus of th eactivity and process.

Focusing solely on a ROI on any activity, be it money or food or whatever, especially an activity with so many vital and ancillary aspects apart from hunting “season”, sets one up for dissatisfaction.
It also may not set up the “hunter’ to take a proactive stance on issues affecting habitat, game and ...the hunter himself.
Self....is never #1, to me.

Just an added comment on the programs for landowner co-operation.....at times, those areas will be good and at other times they may be impacted by a need and allowance of haying and grazing, for example.
The option is a good one but.....hopefully, any “hunter” understands that stuff happens and a ROI is, at the core, a p-poor approach to the birdhunting life.
Life and not lifestyle should be where value is placed, to me.

“Showing off a pretty shotgun” and such comments which dot your posts could be, are, a tad insulting....consider asking a question sans personal commentary, attitude or agenda.
Many folks here are ready to help...especially any new fella or fellerette working up that learning curve.
It seldom helps to pull for information while pushing away.
imho

[ezzy333]

Hunters need so much land to be able to hunt. The land also has to hold game or there is no use hunting it.

What is there not to understand about the sentence above?

The same logic applies to bodies of water and fishing.

If you fish on a lake that is all fished out, you will likely CATCH no more than a cold.

Some bodies of water are stocked with fish by the government. I will have to call my fish and game to see if they STOCK any lands available for public hunting with birds likewise.

I never meant to infer that landlowers are good or bad people but my impression from talking with people in the past as well as reading a few hunting books has always been that farmland (private) is prime land for game. I do know how to read.

I am just wondering if I can EXPECT to find delicious birds in decent numbers on any of the ACCESS YES! lands I mentioned above.

I want to KNOW much more before I invest money into hunting ahead of time before it's too late. I need to sort out all the caveats of the sport

before I actually commit to it. I am not yet committed to hunting.

The main difference is that most of us do not measure a day in the field by how many birds we shoot. I have no idea how many times I have shot my limit since I don't count. I can tell you for sure I never shot the limit of doves or quail, both very good eating. Limits are not a goal but rather there so others have a chance also. I have quit many times after killing one or two as I didn't need to kill anymore. Hunting to me means hunting, not shooting, not killing, and sometimes not even finding. Most of my best days were days when the birds were scarce and the dogs were excellent, and the number of birds didn't even enter into the equation. You haven't had this experience yet and it sounds like you may not ever, but all of the fun of hunting comes before the shot and the rest is work that comes afterwards. Oh, and another thing, just to get it off of the table, you can not judge the quality of the land by the condition of the bird. Unless you want to spend your time in a lab measuring with the help of gram scales, you will find no difference in most cases.

Jon, if you insist that you need to know the answers to all of your questions before you even try it, my suggestion would be to find a different hobby that you want to do because it is fun and not a job that requires judgement for every part of it. Hunting is a sport, finding is a goal, shooting is a thrill, and killing is just a necessary part of putting meat on the table for most but I find finding is a thrill mainly because of my dogs. Without the dogs my trips afield would be few and far apart.

[fishvik]

Jon, By far the best bird hunting, except maybe for pheasants, in Idaho is public land. I have spent almost 50 years in this state and I have shot my share of grouse, quail, huns, chukars, doves and waterfowl on state and federal lands here. As a matter of fact while the quality of upland bird habitat has been pretty stable for most species on public lands in Idaho, private lands have decreased with the onset of newer agricultural practices and a growing animosity by landowners toward hunters on their lands due to hunter behavior. My advice to you is learn something about the subject before you start firing off an opinion. Another thing, being a recent transplant to Idaho your general approach isn't going to win you many invites to hunt private land.

[mask]

OK this one really makes me chuckle. The minute you buy a dog and a gun to hunt upland game you are in the hole. When you factor in care for the dog or in my case dogs the cost of a vehicle to get you there and fuel you will never recover the monetary cost. For me and the people I know it is all about the dogs not about body count. Any one who thinks hunting is going to pay for itself is flat wrong or delusional.

[tailcracken pointer]

OK this one really makes me chuckle. The minute you buy a dog and a gun to hunt upland game you are in the hole. When you factor in care for the dog or in my case dogs the cost of a vehicle to get you there and fuel you will never recover the monetary cost. For me and the people I know it is all about the dogs not about body count. Any one who thinks hunting is going to pay for itself is flat wrong or delusional.

Nail on head !! Who cares about how many birds they kill in a day, if its not pointed by my dogs i let it fly if i want to eat i go to price chopper , If you think your going to go hunting and save money GOOD LUCK especially bird hunting i give them all away anyway !! I bet i have over 20k just in bird hunting equipment ,dogs, trailer, guns, not too mention how much i spend a year in gas , traveling, motels, and public land is some great hunting!!!

[SCT]

The best hunting I've ever had was on public land. Know why??? Because that's where I hunt. I love the HUNT! I love the challenge of finding good populations of game. I love the challenge of hunting difficult terrain because other, lazier people won't venture in. I LOVE having high quality bird dogs that can find game in about every terrain and land "quality" that I turn them loose in. I cannot wait to get back onto my beautiful public land again to turn my bird dogs loose, starting the end of this month.

The times that I have hunted private land I also LOVED. Why, because my dogs were able to fill it up and point birds and I was able to be there to watch it all happen. LIFE is GOOD!

I have also hunted access yes type co-op lands in several states and all of them were very productive.

[polmaise]

If a new person enters the Sport of Hunting with the pre-perception of a spreadsheet or with a portfolio of certificates and written laws to debate on a forum with topics of lead shot /handling dead game carcass/ballistics /best gun/and lead shot debate,before they have experienced hunting with or without a dog or with or without a gun ....then Im Not in that crowd to help fuel/feed that critter.
..
This side of the pond we have Anti blood sport activists who spend more time on this tinternet than they have wearing a pair of boots .

[SCT]

If a new person enters the Sport of Hunting with the pre-perception of a spreadsheet or with a portfolio of certificates and written laws to debate on a forum with topics of lead shot /handling dead game carcass/ballistics /best gun/and lead shot debate,before they have experienced hunting with or without a dog or with or without a gun ....then Im Not in that crowd to help fuel/feed that critter.
..
This side of the pond we have Anti blood sport activists who spend more time on this tinternet than they have wearing a pair of boots .

Exactly, put some boots on and cut the dogs loose. You'll learn what you need to know.

[JonBailey]

Ok, I now get it people. Idaho Access Yes! land might work out as far as filling a chest freezer goes, but few things are 100% guaranteed in this world.

I don't have to go knock on doors: I may just have to notify the landowner by telephone in some cases.

My conclusion:I have to get educated on SCOUTING, SCOUTING and more SCOUTING to pin down lands that look PROMISING.

Much of the scouting can be done on the maps of Google Earth before looking over prospective hunt sites in person. For example, I will look for
watering holes on maps as small ponds. Game animals need to drink when they are thirsty. I would need a Garmin GPS to
mark waypoints for scouted areas that look good. Dove sites should have farmland near by, power lines, telephone wires and tree lines for perching.

Some newbie hunters may get skunked in the field a lot simply because they don't know what they are doing or they don't know where to go.
It's like showing up in the morning with can of worms for a person who has never been fly-fishing before.

I feel I am the fellow who must master "Knowing What I Am Doing and Where to Go" first.

It is nice to have GOALS in life. Do any people here have GOALS in mind when approaching the sport of hunting?

Number One: If I were to go hunting, it would be my goal for me and any dogs of mine to get back home from the field alive and unscathed.
Number Two: If I were to take up hunting, it would be my goal to acquire the skills and knowledge that would improve the chances of taking enough game in the field
to make the whole venture worth while. Most here might agree that coming home with two birds or less on dove opening day, Sept. 1, is big waste of reources and not
much fun to boot. The daily limit for mourning doves in ID is 15. Eurasians have no bag limit.

[AZSetter]

So, here's a thought. Your WAY over thinking this. Make a small investment in a good pair of boots. Find some public land. Set out on that land to find game. If you wear out the boots and haven't found game but enjoyed the time you spent searching, take up hiking. If you have found game try hunting the game you have found. If that game was upland birds then you MIGHT be ready to make the investment of time and money in a bird dog.
I hunt public land exclusively, Some is good, some not so much. I can honestly say that every day I spend in the field behind a dog is a good day, body count is a measure of quantity not quality. Seeing a dog do what they are breed to do is amazing and something you have to experience to understand,
If hunting consisted of loading the dog in the truck, driving to my spot, putting the dog on the ground and taking a limit in a few short minutes I doubt I would hunt. I enjoy the challenge. As far as it being cost effective, Forget it! Ain't gonna happen! Do the math. Figure a truck to get to your spot, dog, dog gear, gun, ammo, boots, clothes, feeding a dog, license, gas, vet bills, etc, etc, etc. Now, divide that number by how ever many birds you might take before you have to start replacing any of those things. You might just as well stay home and eat filets every night!
If that doesn't make sense to you, you have wasted an exorbitant amount of time researching a hobby that is just not for you.

[porochi]

Kansas has leased private land for public hunting since 1995 and annually enrolls at least a million acres statewide in the program, called Walk In Hunting Area (WIHA). You can pick up an atlas with maps of all parcels, some as large as a full section (640 acres) or more at any Walmart or most sporting goods store in the state, or download the maps from the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks (KDWP) website. Most of it's in western Kansas and mostly CRP. There's some with milo, wheat or corn. I've hunted WIHA parcels many times and had some very good pheasant and quail hunts on it, and waterfowl. It's an awesome program and without it my upland game hunting options would be quite limited.

Most of it is first come first served but some parcels are set aside for reservations, you have to go online and reserve a date and time then it's yours for that period. They also have public land set aside in their Special Hunts program where you apply for draw hunts, if drawn then you get a permit that specifies the dates you can hunt it. Only permit holders can hunt these areas. I've had some pretty good upland game and deer hunts, and waterfowl, on these Special Hunt parcels.

I highly commend KDWP for trying to provide as much quality public hunting options as possible. And I'm a landowner too but my land doesn't hold upland game, only waterfowl, turkeys and deer. I say only. I have some decent deer and turkey on my land but my first love is upland game hunting and for that I rely on some private land that I have access to and the WIHA program. The WIHA gets hit hard the first couple weeks of pheasant/quail season but really tapers off after that and that's typically when I hit WIHA and usually we don't run into other hunters. if we do, we just move on to the next WIHA parcel, they're pretty close together, esp. out west, so I can always find some land that's open for hunting and no one's on it. Kansas is doing it right and most upland hunters I know in the area love the WIHA program.

Out of state hunters can come here, pick up a WIHA map and go hunt. It's mostly big CRP acreage so be prepared to walk and then walk some more. Vehicles are not allowed on WIHA land. You can park on the road but have to walk in. Your dogs will get to run themselves ragged. My GSP loves it. He also loves chasing all the deer, and rabbits, in addition to the quail and pheasant. There's plenty of all that on the WIHA land. Thank God for E-collars.

[JonBailey]

So, here's a thought. Your WAY over thinking this. Make a small investment in a good pair of boots. Find some public land. Set out on that land to find game. If you wear out the boots and haven't found game but enjoyed the time you spent searching, take up hiking. If you have found game try hunting the game you have found. If that game was upland birds then you MIGHT be ready to make the investment of time and money in a bird dog.
I hunt public land exclusively, Some is good, some not so much. I can honestly say that every day I spend in the field behind a dog is a good day, body count is a measure of quantity not quality. Seeing a dog do what they are breed to do is amazing and something you have to experience to understand,
If hunting consisted of loading the dog in the truck, driving to my spot, putting the dog on the ground and taking a limit in a few short minutes I doubt I would hunt. I enjoy the challenge. As far as it being cost effective, Forget it! Ain't gonna happen! Do the math. Figure a truck to get to your spot, dog, dog gear, gun, ammo, boots, clothes, feeding a dog, license, gas, vet bills, etc, etc, etc. Now, divide that number by how ever many birds you might take before you have to start replacing any of those things. You might just as well stay home and eat filets every night!
If that doesn't make sense to you, you have wasted an exorbitant amount of time researching a hobby that is just not for you.

Whether one uses a dog to hunt or just as a pet, the dog is always going to have to be fed and vetted anyway. Most people own a vehicle whether they hunt or not
and most dog owners in America are non-hunters.

I would not have to go out of my way to buy a dog and a truck SOLELY for hunting. A compact car should be fine for most bird hunting. I have read several hunting articles in periodicals by gun writers over the years.

I need a truck to tow my boat anyway and a canine companion on deck along for ballast. Retrievers are great boating dogs, being water dogs, even if the boater never hunts.
The nice thing about boating is there is always easy public access to waterways and boat ramps. Nobody ever has to ask private landowners permission to boat.
When one is hunting one is in pursuit of living things. The living things have to be supported by land that provides them good habitat. A trailer boat, a non-living machine,
will run on any old inland body of water as long as it is deep enough to clear its draft.

[Mountaineer]

As a note, somewhat, on waterfowling.....if it quacks like a duck, it is a duck, if not, well, it likely isn’t.

That realization has always helped me in a life amongst “living things” (nee humans),

[fishvik]

It might be a good idea to keep some records of your hunting when you start. Being a biologist by training, I've been keeping a hunting diary for about 40 years now. Where I hunted, birds flushed, birds shot, dog used, general habitat conditions, etc. It has been helpful for end of year reports to F&G and to compare habitat and population changes over the years. It may help your need to quantify things.

[JonBailey]

It might be a good idea to keep some records of your hunting when you start. Being a biologist by training, I've been keeping a hunting diary for about 40 years now. Where I hunted, birds flushed, birds shot, dog used, general habitat conditions, etc. It has been helpful for end of year reports to F&G and to compare habitat and population changes over the years. It may help your need to quantify things.

I am a very analytical person by nature. QUANTIFYING things hits home with me

[JonBailey]

Kansas has leased private land for public hunting since 1995 and annually enrolls at least a million acres statewide in the program, called Walk In Hunting Area (WIHA). You can pick up an atlas with maps of all parcels, some as large as a full section (640 acres) or more at any Walmart or most sporting goods store in the state, or download the maps from the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks (KDWP) website. Most of it's in western Kansas and mostly CRP. There's some with milo, wheat or corn. I've hunted WIHA parcels many times and had some very good pheasant and quail hunts on it, and waterfowl. It's an awesome program and without it my upland game hunting options would be quite limited.

Most of it is first come first served but some parcels are set aside for reservations, you have to go online and reserve a date and time then it's yours for that period. They also have public land set aside in their Special Hunts program where you apply for draw hunts, if drawn then you get a permit that specifies the dates you can hunt it. Only permit holders can hunt these areas. I've had some pretty good upland game and deer hunts, and waterfowl, on these Special Hunt parcels.

I highly commend KDWP for trying to provide as much quality public hunting options as possible. And I'm a landowner too but my land doesn't hold upland game, only waterfowl, turkeys and deer. I say only. I have some decent deer and turkey on my land but my first love is upland game hunting and for that I rely on some private land that I have access to and the WIHA program. The WIHA gets hit hard the first couple weeks of pheasant/quail season but really tapers off after that and that's typically when I hit WIHA and usually we don't run into other hunters. if we do, we just move on to the next WIHA parcel, they're pretty close together, esp. out west, so I can always find some land that's open for hunting and no one's on it. Kansas is doing it right and most upland hunters I know in the area love the WIHA program.

Out of state hunters can come here, pick up a WIHA map and go hunt. It's mostly big CRP acreage so be prepared to walk and then walk some more. Vehicles are not allowed on WIHA land. You can park on the road but have to walk in. Your dogs will get to run themselves ragged. My GSP loves it. He also loves chasing all the deer, and rabbits, in addition to the quail and pheasant. There's plenty of all that on the WIHA land. Thank God for E-collars.

How is the dove hunting in Kansas or maybe you don't pursue these fast, darting cooers on September First.

[birddogger2]

It might be a good idea to keep some records of your hunting when you start. Being a biologist by training, I've been keeping a hunting diary for about 40 years now. Where I hunted, birds flushed, birds shot, dog used, general habitat conditions, etc. It has been helpful for end of year reports to F&G and to compare habitat and population changes over the years. It may help your need to quantify things.

I am a very analytical person by nature. QUANTIFYING things hits home with me

Jon -

You have absolutely no idea how amusing your "dissertations" are, at least to me.

I chuckle at the continuing stream of BS that you spew, knowing that you are at least partly serious, which is actually what makes it so funny to me. That and...you remind me of me with some of your know-it all declarations. At least the version of me that was 18-30 years old and thought I had the answers to all the questions that mattered.

You need to understand a couple of things...

Hunting is hunting. It is the search for game. Hunting ends with the killing. Then it is killing, not hunting any longer. If you enjoy the hunt, the act of hunting is all the gratification necessary. The FINDING of game is the occasional reward and the TAKING of said game is the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.

If you do it long enough...you might just understand what I just told you. It is obvious that you currently do not.

Hunting with a dog is ALL ABOUT THE DOG. The dog is the reason you are out there...not the other way 'round. They are the hunters. We are there to watch and kill. We are the ones that are superfluous to the equation.

I truly enjoyed your comment on being analytical. You see... I possess both a BS and MS in Analytical Chemistry and practiced that particular skill for nearly forty years...with some success. Oh and I also have an MBA with a concentration in finance and accounting. I even know how to balance a checkbook!!

However, I always try to remember what the first four letters of the word analytical were and how that can color my judgement. I definitely have a tendency to be ANALytical in my approach to things.

Interestingly, that is one of the things that spurs me on to hunt over wide ranging pointing dogs and one of the things I enjoyed about bowhunting for deer. In both situations, the hunter is NOT in control. Not really...not when it counts.

To be successful, one must surrender that control. In the case of upland game hunting...to a dog that may or may not do what you want them to do. I always found cutting a bird dog loose to be quite therapeutic...and humbling.

Hopefully, you will get there...someday.

The funny thing is...as I get older, I realize that all the preparation and planning and design is often an illusion of control and organization. One's life can change in a heartbeat despite the most careful planning and preparation. Being in the middle of an intersection when someone blows through a red light can upset ALL one's plans. So can a doctor's quiet notification that you have lung cancer. As Ben Franklin said so well: "It is better to be lucky than smart."

I wish you luck.

RayG

[tailcracken pointer]

Jon you live in a state where there are tons of public land! It wasnt to long ago i was looking for a place to hunt sharpies , huns and a sage grouse you have people from your state that invited me out for sage grouse on this forum!! But on the other hand if you talk about hunting Montana in a drought look out you will get attacked from all directions lol I went up there didnt know anything and absolutely drilled sharpies and got a sage grouse as well , this is doom and gloom with no birds because of the drought lol good luck just get out there and hunt and have fun

[porochi]

I always dove hunt opening weekend in KS. KDWP plants sunflowers on designated fields and the dove hunting can be pretty good. But usually after 2-3 days of being shot at all the time the doves seem to wise up and avoid the food plots on public land. Dove hunting is a warm up and my GSP won't sit still anyway so sitting in one spot waiting in a dove ffield drives him nuts, and me, trying to constrain him. Like him, I prefer to move on foot so we don't get serious about hunting until pheasant/quail season opens in November.

[ezzy333]

It might be a good idea to keep some records of your hunting when you start. Being a biologist by training, I've been keeping a hunting diary for about 40 years now. Where I hunted, birds flushed, birds shot, dog used, general habitat conditions, etc. It has been helpful for end of year reports to F&G and to compare habitat and population changes over the years. It may help your need to quantify things.

I am a very analytical person by nature. QUANTIFYING things hits home with me

Jon -

You have absolutely no idea how amusing your "dissertations" are, at least to me.

I chuckle at the continuing stream of BS that you spew, knowing that you are at least partly serious, which is actually what makes it so funny to me. That and...you remind me of me with some of your know-it all declarations. At least the version of me that was 18-30 years old and thought I had the answers to all the questions that mattered.

You need to understand a couple of things...

Hunting is hunting. It is the search for game. Hunting ends with the killing. Then it is killing, not hunting any longer. If you enjoy the hunt, the act of hunting is all the gratification necessary. The FINDING of game is the occasional reward and the TAKING of said game is the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.

If you do it long enough...you might just understand what I just told you. It is obvious that you currently do not.

a dog is ALL ABOUT THE DOG. The dog is the reason you are out there...not the other way 'round. They are the hunters. We are there to watch and kill. We are the ones that are superfluous to the equation.

I truly enjoyed your comment on being analytical. You see... I possess both a BS and MS in Analytical Chemistry and practiced that particular skill for nearly forty years...with some success. Oh and I also have an MBA with a concentration in finance and accounting. I even know how to balance a checkbook!!

However, I always try to remember what the first four letters of the word analytical were and how that can color my judgement. I definitely have a tendency to be ANALytical in my approach to things.

Interestingly, that is one of the things that spurs me on to hunt over wide ranging pointing dogs and one of the things I enjoyed about bowhunting for deer. In both situations, the hunter is NOT in control. Not really...not when it counts.

To be successful, one must surrender that control. In the case of upland game hunting...to a dog that may or may not do what you want them to do. I always found cutting a bird dog loose to be quite therapeutic...and humbling.

Hopefully, you will get there...someday.

The funny thing is...as I get older, I realize that all the preparation and planning and design is often an illusion of control and organization. One's life can change in a heartbeat despite the most careful planning and preparation. Being in the middle of an intersection when someone blows through a red light can upset ALL one's plans. So can a doctor's quiet notification that you have lung cancer. As Ben Franklin said so well: "It is better to be lucky than smart."

I wish you luck.

RayG

After reading this post, which by the way may be one of the best ever, I think you may be my long lost identical twin. God Bless, it is so good to find someone that understands exactly what I have learned over many years and you stated it exactly as I have been thinking.

Ezzy

[cjhills]

I have thought that for a long time...………………..Cj

Ps. The twin part.

[mnaj_springer]

Ray,

I read your post 4 times because it was so good. I turn 30 this fall but have trying to make the mental shift you're alluding to for the past 4 years (which is about when my springer had her first season).

Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

[SCT]

Very well said Ray G. After you've DONE IT for 30-40+ years you understand and appreciate so much more. Without my dogs I'd quit hunting upland birds, they are the reason I go and maybe even the reason I still have the drive I have to do other things in life. Couldn't care less if I ever kill another bird over them, but will do it for them occasionally so they are complete!!!

[Mountaineer]

Ray G, thank you.

I hope we are all wise enough to acknowledge, appreciate and accept words as meaningful as those.

[averageguy]

Like many commenting here, my bird hunting, (Upland and Waterfowl), is all about my dogs and the wild places we find wild birds.

But I will also dare to admit I enjoy shooting a limit of birds when the dog work and populations make it responsible to do so. I love Wingshooting, my dog loves to retrieve and my Wife, Friends/Family and I relish the gourmet meals the birds provide.

I frequently shoot a limit of doves, waterfowl and pheasants because I invest the time and effort to put myself in places to do so. Doves and Waterfowl migrate and easily respond to hunting pressure by moving on down the flyway, and we only shoot the rooster pheasants and so over harvest is highly unlikely. I fill my Spring Turkey tags on mature called up Toms but am careful to not over harvest gobblers on any given farm in doing so.

Bobwhite Quail - I seldom shoot full limits, and only in those states and years where the habitat and populations allow it to be done without putting unacceptable pressure on the birds. These days it is next to never that I shoot a limit of quail on public lands as those birds face far too much hunting pressure for me to be comfortable putting that much pressure on them in any one hunt. In the good years I enjoy a few limits taken in the best remaining states hunting on controlled access private lands with excellent habitat. Numerically 90% of days I spend hunting quail fall far short of full limit and that is never a downfall in my enjoyment. That only well handled/pointed birds are shot is a given.

Sharptails, Prairie Chickens and Huns seem to take care of themselves and limits are only taken when the bird numbers are so high that doing so puts no undue pressure on the birds. Otherwise the opportunities to shoot a limit on those birds does not happen in less than stellar populations is the general case I experience.

Big Game - When I take Bulls or Bucks my goal is that they be mature age class animals out of a population which supports it and archery is my preference. The challenge of that combination remains for me, substantial and each success an emotional high. Meat is always well cared for and utilized.

Analytical Skills have an excellent place in researching states and areas to hunt, studying maps and access points, studying equipment options, setting up bows, arrows, broadheads, tree stands and ground blinds.

Cost/ Benefit Analysis of raising, training and hunting my own dog, Nope never done that.

[JONOV]

If your concern is a full freezer, go to preserve hunts. Its a better solution for you to figure out if you like it anyway. Some people get all huffy-puffy, but you don't take a 5 year old to stalk bonefish with a fly rod, you take him to a stocked catfish lake or bluegill pond and let him hook into something.

Dove hunting is a great way to get into it though, so you're on the right track, and there is minimal investment. Don't worry about public land and the cost or recoil of steel. I've never been lucky enough to shoot so much that I want to reconsider what I spend on shells. Find the right land and hunt it.

And don't think that your "Bureaucrat with a Magnet" stays off private land. He doesn't, and can walk right up to you on posted land and check your license and setup. Most of them are decent folks, and if you're nice and strike up a conversation, you can get a good lead on places to hunt from Game Wardens.

There are never any guarantees. Ever. You can drive across the country to a bird hunting paradise, and lose a day driving to town for a vet visit, skunk bath, etc. Or a gun malfunctions/breaks.

Even if the starts align, the weather may not. That's also a consideration. The field they poured into on Thursday may be ignored on Friday. Its the nature of the beast.

[Compton30]

I've eaten hundreds of pounds of game meat in my life. At no point could I ever tell the difference between one shot on public land vs one shot on private land. I'd just like to dispel that comment that was made in the original post.