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VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Higgins » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:09 pm

Here is a link to a video of Jax, a nice young Lab pointing his bird. Reagan is the shooter. When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.

https://youtu.be/OhiYEXv6800

http://www.HigginsGundogs.com
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mnaj_springer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:12 pm

Well, here we go again!

Edit to clarify: The debate of Labs flushing or pointing.
Last edited by mnaj_springer on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby nikegundog » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 pm

Do you always hunt with that check cord attached?
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:06 am

If you want to teach your cat to point and hunt with it, more power to you. For myself there are breeds that were designed to point over a lot of years and a lab will never be one of them. And I like labs! Labs are also used as flushing dogs and truth is lot's of different breeds have been used that way. heard from a guy in Eastern Montana that use's his Border Collie! But if you want to compete with a Field Springer, you ain't gonna make the cut. About like an E. Setter trying to compete in a retrieving trial. They will certainly retrieve but they will come out on bottom of the pile. No lab will ever be competitive against a bog intended to be a pointing dog!
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:22 pm

Higgins wrote:When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.


Im having Real issues understanding this . I have obviously misunderstood the whole concept (I usually do , so apologies) Im just plain old simple .
I thought Retrievers (Lets call them Labs for simplicity) were bred for Retrieving and Not Flushing ? - : Disclaimer , They sure can flush like any other dog including a Pontefrac pound hound :wink: ..
Its the Giving them the Freedom to choose their Startegy I have issue with in understanding the have been bred for flushing part )! (Did you think that was a typo error ? :lol: ) ..oh yes , Strategy , er/hum , .Now , to work on their strengths..If they are Labs then that would be ???
This bit actually blows me away honestly mate .... @ If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing. :roll: ..You can see why I am so perplexed with this ..me being a simpleton who has Flushing breeds that are Not Labs (disclaimer) - although they can flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Pointing Dogs although they can Flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Earth dogs although they can Flush !! -- Oh, did I mention they can also wait/stand still without a check chord at the entrance of the hole almost like they were on Point!!??> amazing honestly. :mrgreen:
.........
ps . I personally dont believe any dog chooses to point ! (including pointers) ..go figure ....then Ill probably get the jist.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby ezzy333 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:50 pm

I think the videos and posts that you see Higgens make are well thought out marketing tools and have little to do with a dogs ability to perform or think, if they even can. Trainers , by that very moniker, indicates to me that whoever it is, are training the dog and not just observing what the dog is doing. It is my opinion, at least, is that a dog with genetic traits uses them and is not thinking about them or at times he doesn't use them and that is where we as trainers come in to the picture. We teach or train the dog how and maybe even when, to use those genetic traits in a manner that is in agreement with what we want as well as how to use them to the best advantage for our needs. After the hunt, in front of the fire is the place for the dog to decide how close to the fire and whether to lay on the rug or on the hard floor. This way we all, dog and me, share in the decision making that leads to a great day in the field and here on Planet earth.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Like Collies herding sheep ?
If the handler says cum bye ,when the dog is actually herding towards the handler then it looks like its a command for example . ? :mrgreen:
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:01 am

I've seen labs that point and spaniels that point and I don't mind it at all. What they don't do is point as well as a decent pointing breed dog.
So if I like to see classy looking points and want to see a dog that covers a lot of ground fast , which I do, I won't buy a lab or a spaniel and then hope it points and quarters out to 2 - 300 yards.

I have an old cocker that points before he flushes and , at times, I have found the points he makes quite useful which I suppose is why the little guidance booklet for spaniel field trial judges here in Britain used to state that pointing should be considered to be an added excellence.

If you needed a dog for rough shooting (Upland shooting) and you had a lab or a spaniel that hunted close and then pointed prior to flushing it would be quite a useful dog. My cocker does this but I am not going to pretend that I trained him to. It is purely instinctive on his part. He points , I think, to get a good fix on the birds position and then he charges in with the intention of pegging it ! :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mnaj_springer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:15 am

Bill T.

I know a lot of guys who like that little hesitation before the flush with their flushing dogs (usually retriever owners), but I have personally seen the benefits of a dog that flushes incredibly hard and fast: the bird does not have time to get to an ideal escape route (whether on foot or wing) and makes a mistake. I watched a Ruffed Grouse literally fly smack into a branch (almost fall out of the air) because of a hard flush. Made my job with the gun easy. Plus, birds focused on escaping a dog seem to forget about the gunners.

Again, to each his own. I couldn’t care less what Joe Blow does, but I know what I like in flushers and why I like it.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:36 am

I don't disagree with you. In Britain a spaniel that pointed prior to flushing would probably be marked down in trials or eliminated ...especially if it held the point until the handler commanded the flush. No trialer I know of in Britain wants his spaniel to point ….our judges want to see "hard" flushes nowadays. Pointing was however, considered to be an added excellence in a trial spaniel some years back.


The main difference between what we expect and Americans expect is in what happens during or just after the flush. If our trial spaniels made a serious attempt to actually catch a flushing bird or rabbit it could be eliminated ….being marked down would be the least it could expect. I have seen spaniels here actually deliberately bump game with their noses in order to make reluctant to fly birds ...and rabbits , fly or run. Any serious attempt to actually capture the game would however be likely to get the dog eliminated ...or at least , "not required for a future run."

If the dog actually caught the bird or rabbit that dog would be out for pegging.

A spaniel or a lab that hunts and points is however, quite a useful dog in the minds of many rough shooters on this side of the pond.

There are differences here between trialing and just going hunting and this is one of them.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mask » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:15 pm

There is such a thing as a pointing lab right? I see them for sale and advertised as such so what is the big deal about this video? It does look like the dog is being trained to point or they are trying to improve and advance this behavior. So am I missing something.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby nikegundog » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:35 pm

mask wrote:There is such a thing as a pointing lab right?

Sure there is just cross a Weim with a Lab and Voila.....pointing Lab.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:18 pm

polmaise wrote:
Higgins wrote:When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.


Im having Real issues understanding this . I have obviously misunderstood the whole concept (I usually do , so apologies) Im just plain old simple .
I thought Retrievers (Lets call them Labs for simplicity) were bred for Retrieving and Not Flushing ? - : Disclaimer , They sure can flush like any other dog including a Pontefrac pound hound :wink: ..
Its the Giving them the Freedom to choose their Startegy I have issue with in understanding the have been bred for flushing part )! (Did you think that was a typo error ? :lol: ) ..oh yes , Strategy , er/hum , .Now , to work on their strengths..If they are Labs then that would be ???
This bit actually blows me away honestly mate .... @ If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing. :roll: ..You can see why I am so perplexed with this ..me being a simpleton who has Flushing breeds that are Not Labs (disclaimer) - although they can flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Pointing Dogs although they can Flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Earth dogs although they can Flush !! -- Oh, did I mention they can also wait/stand still without a check chord at the entrance of the hole almost like they were on Point!!??> amazing honestly. :mrgreen:
.........
ps . I personally dont believe any dog chooses to point ! (including pointers) ..go figure ....then Ill probably get the jist.
atb
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Have to agree that no dog chose's to point. But the instinct to is deeper in them than other breeds. If pointing dog's didn't need trained, where would we be. Dog's point for a cpouple different reason's. First they actually want to catch the bird but can't. So, they blink. A point is no more than a long blink. The dog learns that it will get it the bird if it wait's there. Then you'll notice that dog's that are able to catch a few birds on the ground think they can catch more. We teach that when we allow the dog's to pick up healthy live birds off the ground. Guy came here a few years ago with a GSP a preserve gave him. he said it had to much prey drive and refused to point a bird. Took under 20 min to get that dog pointing! Problem was, IMO, the preserve took the dog out and worked it on pen raised birds that didn't fly well and taught the dog it could catch birds on the ground. now had they stopped and got the dog on wild birds, that would not have happened and the dog would hesitate, blink, trying to figure out how to catch the bird until the bird taught the dog it couldn't and the trainer showed the dog how to get what it wanted. So you see a lab pointing? It's because it was taught to point! The best pointing dog's have it bred into them but take them out young and teach them to catch birds on the ground and that is what they'll do. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to point. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to retrieve. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to flush! Want to teach a dog to flush hard Plant birds with flight feather pulled and the dog will take them out. It will not hesitate, blink, because it's learned it can catch them all. Now take that dog on wild birds and it will put them up and the reward is gained with a shot. Quit shooting and let the birds go and you will teach the dog to blink then rather than flush they just might run out! Dog's do what they learn to do either through us or other wise! A dog bred for the instinct to point is easier to teach to point and does a better job than one bred for something else!
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:04 pm

DonF wrote: Dog's do what they learn to do either through us or other wise! A dog bred for the instinct to point is easier to teach to point and does a better job than one bred for something else!

+1
Wonder why there are so many specialists in one breed? :)
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby ezzy333 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:54 pm

The point is nothing more than the dog gathering itself so it can make the leap tp catch the bird. Over decades of breeding dogs that tend to hold that position longer we have developed a pointer. Dogs, cats, and just about every other animal including us, has the need to do that if they are going to be successful in the catch.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:32 am

ezzy333 wrote:The point is nothing more than the dog gathering itself so it can make the leap tp catch the bird. Over decades of breeding dogs that tend to hold that position longer we have developed a pointer. Dogs, cats, and just about every other animal including us, has the need to do that if they are going to be successful in the catch.

Ezzy


Something I noticed with the pointing breeds is that they can come off point into a huge jump if not to stretched out. Has to be something to that. My son's old pointer Pete was that way. He never stretched out and came off the ground like a rocket. Son though it was funny and taught him to catch the birds when they flushed! Little snot! :-)
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:01 pm

There Just has to be a market for a Pointing Cocker Spaniel . :lol:
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby cjhills » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm

I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own. I also don't get pointing being blinking. Blinking the flush? To me blinking is ignoring a bird the dog knows is there. Generally because of something it is not comfortable with. Usually the gun or rough training for steadiness. Pointing is the pause before the pounce. Pointers are Bred to do it longer and trained to hold until released.
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:37 am

cjhills wrote:I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own.
....................
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj


Perhaps lost in translation cj.?
They were either selectively bred or trained to ....
I would say that You have trained every dog you owned to do what was in the breeding combined with the situational environment you have taken the dog ,therefore it has Learned.
....
Yes, there are Pointing Labs that do a good job of which they have been Trained to do, but they definitely do not have a natural tendency to point.
If they did, then one could mate a Pointing lab with another Pointing Lab and with No training or conditioning they would Point ....That clearly doesn't happen,Unless you know different ?
Which kinda refutes the OP title Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point..................and that of course is just not cricket old chum :)
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby cjhills » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:13 am

polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote:I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own.
....................
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj


Perhaps lost in translation cj.?
They were either selectively bred or trained to ....
I would say that You have trained every dog you owned to do what was in the breeding combined with the situational environment you have taken the dog ,therefore it has Learned.
....
Yes, there are Pointing Labs that do a good job of which they have been Trained to do, but they definitely do not have a natural tendency to point.
If they did, then one could mate a Pointing lab with another Pointing Lab and with No training or conditioning they would Point ....That clearly doesn't happen,Unless you know different ?
Which kinda refutes the OP title Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point..................and that of course is just not cricket old chum :)

Of course they were selectively bred. I assume that the breeders of pointing Labs do breed one Lab that points to another Lab that points. I admit to having little or no knowledge of Pointing Labs. My Lab breeding brother thinks " Pointing Lab" is a swear word.

If I take my five month old pup to the field with a planted bird and she points rather than flushes it, that is her choice. First time, No check cord, no launcher. Just her and The bird.
Natural Point? ......Cj
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:39 am

I am with cjhills on this one …. I think ? There are labs that are not taught to point ….they just do. Labs have pointers in their genes from a long time back and very occasionally that gene comes through a bit more strongly than is usual and voila ….you have a pointing lab whether you like it or not ! :lol:

One of my mates had a lab bitch he wanted to trial but the bitch was a natural pointer . She pointed an unshot bird during a retrieve made in her first trial and was eliminated. I advised my friend to only run her in trials known to have very sparse game on the ground to lessen the chances of unshot game being around during her retrieves. Eventually she won a Novice trial but was never trialed again after that …...in case she pointed instead of just getting on with the retrieve.

I also disagree that a point is due to a form of "blinking." A point is a form of focusing just prior to a pounce !

I don't teach my pointing breeds to point …..the birds did and I stood back and let it happen. The birds made a far better job of training a pointer than I ever could.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:26 am

The first Black Lab I hunted over 45 years ago evolved through hunting experience to a self taught, tail flagging, standing over the birds "point" of wild quail and pheasants. At the time we thought it was great as it allowed us to get into position before the bird flew.

More recently I have hunted with two "Pointing Labs" from a nationally acclaimed/titled "Pointing Lab" kennel. Neither had any natural pointing instinct that I could discern. One was owned by a first time dog owner who I attempted to help/advise in training the dog. The dog had a good nose and was keen for birds, but showed nothing but a strong go into the bird and flush style of working. I finally advised the owner to be happy with the good flushing dog they owned and stop trying to make it point, as the dog clearly had no natural inclination to do so. (Nor did the first time owner show any inclination to let enough $5 pigeons fly away without shooting them to train the dog otherwise.)

There are some Labs that show a natural tendency to stand a bird vs driving into to flush. The majority of them will be very close to the bird when it happens. As is the case in the video. Nothing like a Pointing Breed standing head high 40 yards off a bird. Overall I find the notion that a strong pointing instinct has been reliably bred into some lines of Labs to be more marketing than reality, and nothing like the pointing instinct which has been bred into Pointing Breeds over a much longer period of time and generations.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:08 am

averageguy wrote:
There are some Labs that show a natural tendency to stand a bird vs driving into to flush. The majority of them will be very close to the bird when it happens. As is the case in the video. Nothing like a Pointing Breed standing head high 40 yards off a bird. Overall I find the notion that a strong pointing instinct has been reliably bred into some lines of Labs to be more marketing than reality, and nothing like the pointing instinct which has been bred into Pointing Breeds over a much longer period of time and generations.


The great majority of the points I've seen labs and spaniels make have been very close to the bird. My cocker Charlie will point fur or feather but always from feet away , never from yards away and his only reason for the points is to pinpoint the game before he makes his leap to catch it ! I think our ancestors developed our present day pointing dogs by deliberately breeding from dogs that did a "natural point" but from very close to the game.

No dog, fox or cat could leap in for a catch from a point made 30 yards away. We have "developed" pointing by breeding for it far more than by "training" for it. So if you want a pointer pup that will almost certainly point and from a respectable distance away too, don't buy a lab .... or my cocker "Charlie !" :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:37 am

Trekmoor wrote:No dog, fox or cat could leap in for a catch from a point made 30 yards away. We have "developed" pointing by breeding for it far more than by "training" for it. So if you want a pointer pup that will almost certainly point and from a respectable distance away too, don't buy a lab .... or my cocker "Charlie !" :lol:

Bill T.


I agree. Things go much easier, and the end result is far superior when working with instead of against strong genetics.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:27 am

cjhills wrote:
polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote:I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own.
....................
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj


Perhaps lost in translation cj.?
They were either selectively bred or trained to ....
I would say that You have trained every dog you owned to do what was in the breeding combined with the situational environment you have taken the dog ,therefore it has Learned.
....
Yes, there are Pointing Labs that do a good job of which they have been Trained to do, but they definitely do not have a natural tendency to point.
If they did, then one could mate a Pointing lab with another Pointing Lab and with No training or conditioning they would Point ....That clearly doesn't happen,Unless you know different ?
Which kinda refutes the OP title Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point..................and that of course is just not cricket old chum :)

Of course they were selectively bred. I assume that the breeders of pointing Labs do breed one Lab that points to another Lab that points. I admit to having little or no knowledge of Pointing Labs. My Lab breeding brother thinks " Pointing Lab" is a swear word.

If I take my five month old pup to the field with a planted bird and she points rather than flushes it, that is her choice. First time, No check cord, no launcher. Just her and The bird.
Natural Point? ......Cj

The breeders of Pointing Labs would have to breed many successive mating's with Pointing Labs in the pedigree without diluting the pointing gene ,and therefore have to successively introduce Pointers in that gene pool to successfully produce Natural Pointing dogs that look like Labs ...................Pretty much how the Present day Pointers were produced and Look like Pointers ?! ? ...........
For semantics/Discussion sake,there will always be the few stories of which some recollect that This dog done x or this dog done y ...and relate it to a Point ..
Stopping as an indication that game is present Is not Pointing ..with a flushing breed nor a retrieving breed . It is also not a credit or merit in any competition ,unless you change the rules for present day . It can and has been an advantage for certain Shooters/Hunters .......If that is what floats your boat.
Im with your Lab Lab Breeding Brother :wink:
............
Fact still remains ...As in the Original Post and video ......Dog is Not Pointing and Is being conditioned/Trained to Whoa on scent Indication to look like it is ,pretty much and yes Labs can be used as a Flushing Dog pretty much like any other breed of dog ,But It certainly Is Not Choosing To Point :roll:
............
Yup! The wild game certainly teaches/Learns the Pointing Dog better than any Pro Trainer from any country for sure ! Just like Your young one ....
.........
Leave you with this thought ?....Just for kicks .
Try taking out a Flushing Dog such as a Springer or Cocker Spaniel ..lets see if it can/will Point ?> what would be the Point .......................RJ :mrgreen:
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:37 pm

He is choosing his style.

Image
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:33 am

cjhills wrote:I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own. I also don't get pointing being blinking. Blinking the flush? To me blinking is ignoring a bird the dog knows is there. Generally because of something it is not comfortable with. Usually the gun or rough training for steadiness. Pointing is the pause before the pounce. Pointers are Bred to do it longer and trained to hold until released.
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj


I actually started out with retriever's and Springer's. I was taught by the Springer people about the blink. It is a hesitation just before the flush. Best way to get a spaniel blinking is to let it flush birds but never shoot one or to correct at the wrong time while the dog is flushing. Best way to get dog's to flush hard is to let the dog catch all the clip wing birds it wants then run it on some flyer's. Make sure you shoot those flyers for it and it will push the birds right off the ground.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:54 am

Trekmoor wrote:I am with cjhills on this one …. I think ? There are labs that are not taught to point ….they just do. Labs have pointers in their genes from a long time back and very occasionally that gene comes through a bit more strongly than is usual and voila ….you have a pointing lab whether you like it or not ! :lol:

One of my mates had a lab bitch he wanted to trial but the bitch was a natural pointer . She pointed an unshot bird during a retrieve made in her first trial and was eliminated. I advised my friend to only run her in trials known to have very sparse game on the ground to lessen the chances of unshot game being around during her retrieves. Eventually she won a Novice trial but was never trialed again after that …...in case she pointed instead of just getting on with the retrieve.

I also disagree that a point is due to a form of "blinking." A point is a form of focusing just prior to a pounce !

I don't teach my pointing breeds to point …..the birds did and I stood back and let it happen. The birds made a far better job of training a pointer than I ever could.

Bill T.
Bill, appreciate your expertise but have to say this. Take your next pointing dog's out and run them on clip wing birds, they will learn to flush even if they blink in the beginning.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:01 am

averageguy wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:No dog, fox or cat could leap in for a catch from a point made 30 yards away. We have "developed" pointing by breeding for it far more than by "training" for it. So if you want a pointer pup that will almost certainly point and from a respectable distance away too, don't buy a lab .... or my cocker "Charlie !" :lol:

Bill T.


I agree. Things go much easier, and the end result is far superior when working with instead of against strong genetics.


I agree too. But fact is the vast majority of pointing dog's will point much closer than 30 yds if we didn't train them to dog so. When I trialed I taught dog's to crowd birds on command. I didn't find a bird right away, I relocated the dog right into the bird. If the dog wouldn't relocate I new the bird was close. Never tried that with wild birds, I doubt they would put up with it! In a wild setting a dog that simply point's birds and waits for someone to flush it will die of hunger! Watch video's of cat's hunting. Exactly the same thing the dog would do if we let it.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

DonF wrote:
averageguy wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:No dog, fox or cat could leap in for a catch from a point made 30 yards away. We have "developed" pointing by breeding for it far more than by "training" for it. So if you want a pointer pup that will almost certainly point and from a respectable distance away too, don't buy a lab .... or my cocker "Charlie !" :lol:

Bill T.


I agree. Things go much easier, and the end result is far superior when working with instead of against strong genetics.


I agree too. But fact is the vast majority of pointing dog's will point much closer than 30 yds if we didn't train them to dog so. When I trialed I taught dog's to crowd birds on command. I didn't find a bird right away, I relocated the dog right into the bird. If the dog wouldn't relocate I new the bird was close. Never tried that with wild birds, I doubt they would put up with it! In a wild setting a dog that simply point's birds and waits for someone to flush it will die of hunger! Watch video's of cat's hunting. Exactly the same thing the dog would do if we let it.


Well yes, of course.

But the point of my comment is the task of staunching up a dog with a strong inherited natural pointing instinct from many generations of breeding for it is far different/easier than the trying to get a flushing breed which has shown a little bit of pointing instinct at best for the trait.

More important, the end result is far different between the two. I have seen pointing labs which would point and hold a point. I have never seen one point at anywhere near the distances many pointing breed dogs will with just a little bit of work. And therefore their "pointing" is far less useful on wild birds in thin cover that will not tolerate a dog working in too close. Pen raised birds will tolerate anything, hence why I avoid them as much as possible i.e. the video in the OP.

Very evident that working with vs against genetics for whatever desired trait is being worked on makes a huge difference. I see Labs trained and used as retrievers that impress me. Pointing labs not so much.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby birddogger2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:25 am

I say first of all...hunt with what you have.

If you have a retriever and want to hunt in the uplands with it... you will probably do better than if you went out without the dog...no matter which way the dog handles its game.
If you have a beagle and want to hunt upland birds with it... again, you will probably see more birds than if you went out dogless.

If you have a pit bull or a german shepherd, take it with you because it still has a far better nose than you do.

If you have an upland bird specialist, be it a pointing breed or a flushing breed, it is probably best , and most productive if you encourage the dog to hunt in the manner in which it was bred. Pointing dogs generally do not help much, in the taking of game if they find and flush every bird they come across while being well out of shotgun range. Flushing dogs may not be as effective at putting running birds, such as pheasant, up into the air if they hesitate or actually point.

If you have an upland bird specialist, I do believe also that it is the owner's responsibility to encourage it to hunt in the way it was bred to do. I take that responsibility seriously and accept that others may not take it as seriously.

But hunt with what you have, the best way you can. At the very least, you are out there, with your dog, enjoying your sport.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:24 pm

I am with you, Ray.

I hunt with Hounds, Beagles, Terriers, GWPs, GSPs, EPs, DDs, Brittanys, ES, Labs most every year. In my younger years I hunted upland birds with Labs quite a bit, and they were effective in heavy cover. I hunt Waterfowl with them a few days each year, where their retriever specialty skills really shine.

My Cousin has a fine pack of beagles that we hunt rabbits with each winter. I love the little hounds. It might surprise some how often they track and bump quail into flight in the course of our rabbit hunts. We never shoot the quail on those hunts, and rabbits are only shot after the Beagles have circled them at least once.

But I can easily discern between a beagle tracking and eventually bumping some quail into flight, and say a Spaniel quartering fast non-stop and flushing hard when it smells a bird, or a Lab standing over the top of a bird buried in tight cover or a pen raised bird standing a couple of feet off its nose, vs an EP standing head high 40 yards off after a protracted move and point pursuit of a running covey of wary Bobs in Texas brush country.

I agree everyone should enjoy the dog of their choice and I will not hunt birds without one.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:46 pm

averageguy wrote:
I agree everyone should enjoy the dog of their choice and I will not hunt birds without one.

It can be done , But it is not very productive if you are on the move .
In a hide or pre-set stand where birds are driven or encouraged is Not "Hunting" ..That is Shooting .
I digress , to the OP "Flushing Dogs That Choose To Point" .
.......
Ray ? Can You teach a Beagle to point like one of them Labs in the clip ? (even with some couple of generations cross breeding ) .
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:13 pm

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:
I agree everyone should enjoy the dog of their choice and I will not hunt birds without one.

It can be done , But it is not very productive if you are on the move .


Oh yea, I started hunting birds when I was young (with young legs), before I was exposed to hunting birds with bird dogs. I would walk fencelines, tree rows, the cover along railroad tracks and shot plenty of birds doing so. When I decided to get a dog my main focus was getting help to stop loosing crippled birds shot down into heavy cover, not so much that I thought I needed help finding birds to shoot.

My first birddog was a Dropper given to me by a Man dying of Bone Cancer. (We became fast friends and I took the Man dove hunting and guided him to his first and only turkey before his passing. He said it was the most exciting thing he had done in his life.)

That Dropper taught me how to hunt pheasants in a whole new and exciting way, in big fields of tall thick grass following him to the birds, and he changed my entire focus of bird hunting to dog work mattered the most...
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby SCT » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:06 pm

When I see my young pointers point their first birds it appears to me like they have no choice at all. They have no thought towards pointing, it's just natural instinct, period. You walk in front of them on those first points and distraction to the ears and eyes takes that natural intensity away and they choose to flush, likely out of competition, and that competition is also bred heavily into them. After a while they get used to the sounds and sight of you there and they engulf themselves in that intensity, settled in with slobber dripping. It's not a choice in my opinion, more the opposite of it.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby birddogger2 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:58 am

polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:
I agree everyone should enjoy the dog of their choice and I will not hunt birds without one.

It can be done , But it is not very productive if you are on the move .
In a hide or pre-set stand where birds are driven or encouraged is Not "Hunting" ..That is Shooting .
I digress , to the OP "Flushing Dogs That Choose To Point" .
.......
Ray ? Can You teach a Beagle to point like one of them Labs in the clip ? (even with some couple of generations cross breeding ) .



I have absolutely no doubt about the fact that I would fail miserably in an effort to teach a beagle to point. Heck, I have enough trouble getting pointers to do what they were born and bred for, thank you.

In all seriousness, I once hunted behind a little pocket beagle who belonged to an acquaintance. She literally was that small. We started out to do some rabbits in the snow and started a couple. That was fun and different for me. Then on the way back to the vehicles, the beagle got on a pheasant scent. Its whole demeanor changed and it worked that scent slowly and deliberately, vocalizing in a completely different way. Finally put that bird up and we put it in the bag. Then he put is dog back in his hunting coat. Neat little dog.

I got an edumacation that day and thoroughly enjoyed the change of pace. Never thought of a beagle as a bird dog before that day but that little squirt changed my mind. Live and learn I guess.

RayG

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby averageguy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:29 am

I met a guy staying at the same motel in SD, as I was. We were both hunting late season pheasants, me with my GWP, he with his beagle. He was having a rough go of it with the highly educated and spooky late season public area roosters. Seems his beagle was predictably giving tongue on the tracks which was putting the roosters up and gone at impossible shooting distances ahead of the dog. Which is exactly what I would expect and why my dogs and I hunt in silence to the extent possible.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby birddogger2 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:44 pm

averageguy wrote:
polmaise wrote:
averageguy wrote:
I agree everyone should enjoy the dog of their choice and I will not hunt birds without one.

It can be done , But it is not very productive if you are on the move .


Oh yea, I started hunting birds when I was young (with young legs), before I was exposed to hunting birds with bird dogs. I would walk fencelines, tree rows, the cover along railroad tracks and shot plenty of birds doing so. When I decided to get a dog my main focus was getting help to stop loosing crippled birds shot down into heavy cover, not so much that I thought I needed help finding birds to shoot.

My first birddog was a Dropper given to me by a Man dying of Bone Cancer. (We became fast friends and I took the Man dove hunting and guided him to his first and only turkey before his passing. He said it was the most exciting thing he had done in his life.)

That Dropper taught me how to hunt pheasants in a whole new and exciting way, in big fields of tall thick grass following him to the birds, and he changed my entire focus of bird hunting to dog work mattered the most...


When you tell someone it is all about the dogs, they may look at you strangely. But when they go out and witness it for themselves...they understand.

I truly feel sorry for the person ho has not hunted behind a good dog. They simply do not know what they are missing. Flusher, pointer, retriever...it does not matter. What matters is working as a team with a dog that is good at what it does. It is a rush.

It IS where it is at when it comes to upland game.

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