Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

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Steve007
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Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Steve007 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:40 am

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/ ... rXBA-sjayY

This is not precisely gun dogs,but genuine dog people should have some interest in all dogs.

Complete breed registrations. See link. Ranking and 5-year trends.

I always think this is very interesting. More Bullmastiffs, Whippets and Bull Terriers than Wirehairs, but Wirehairs from # 71 to 62. No decent dog person wants his breed to get popular -- especially quickly popular -- but it happens. Note French Bulldogs from #11 to #4 in five years. And the breed has small litters, frequently by c section. Same with Bulldogs, sadly stuck at #5. Shorthairs from #13 to 10. Bernese Mountain Dogs --a hard to handle breed--from 32 to 25. Cane Corso moving from #50 to 37 (lawsuits ahead). Vizslas at 30. And then there's Otterhounds at the bottom.

Of course, not everyone registers his pup, but non-registration % is likely somewhat constant between breeds.

Anyway, it's interesting to read. imo.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Urban_Redneck » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:27 am

I'm curious as to the total number of registrations. I've heard the growing "rescue" business has severely impacted AKC registrations.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Steve007 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:43 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:I'm curious as to the total number of registrations. I've heard the growing "rescue" business has severely impacted AKC registrations.
The number of of unique breeders producing AKC-registered litters increased by nine percent in 2017. These gains contributed to the rise in both litters and dogs by seven percent in the past year, with each category posting gains for the third and fourth year in a row, respectively.

However, most of these increases came from dogs in the top ten with breeds below that experiencing little or no growth. Some obscure breeds are struggling to survive and the breed clubs are establishing DNA (frozen semen) repositories to assure genetic diversity in coming years.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Urban_Redneck » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:27 pm

Thanks Steve, the percentage change is interesting. I wonder why the AKC doesn't seem to post the actual numbers?

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Steve007 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:31 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:Thanks Steve, the percentage change is interesting. I wonder why the AKC doesn't seem to post the actual numbers?
Numbers of American Kennel Club registrations have posted sharp decreases since 1992 levels, and the numbers for all purebred animals are thought to be on the decline as well. 2010 was the last year they published numbers. Only about half of purebred dogs are thought to be registered by their owners and it varies by breed (which is why there were more Mastiffs registered than Pugs last year), so you never know for sure. But while trendlines have turned, numbers are still way off by about 50+% since '92. We can all speculate as to why, and we'll probably all be right to some degree.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by JONOV » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:46 pm

I’m not as concerned about the wirehairs, for all I know it’s an aberration; I’d have to see the raw data. Is the difference between 72 and 60 1000 dogs or 100?

The Shorthairs do concern me. They are too popular already. When poorly bred, they’re often anxious, tightly wound creatures, traits made far worse when they aren’t started early with training and exercise, leash manners and crate training. I see too many coming through the rescue at 10-24 months; a problem I read as “I bought the dog on the Purina bag thinking it would fit into my ‘active lifestyle’ and realized that the dog can’t come to yoga with me and I don’t run a lot.”

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Steve007 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:23 pm

The top ten and that includes shorthairs are strongly affected by the more brainless elements of the pet market. The guy across the street, for example, had a Weimaraner and was quite surprised when I told him that they could be used for bird hunting. Pet quality Goldens have lots of bad physical and mental qualities popping up. When we were doing therapy after my dog's CCL surgery, they definitely had some aggressive GRs there. And an aggressive Golden is serious business.

On the other hand, popular breeds frequently get a bad reputation based on bad specimens, and their numbers drop quickly.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by chiendog » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:37 am

The AKC stopped publishing total numbers of registrations around 2010 I think since it was becoming too obvious that they were in steep decline. Now they only publish a list of breeds in order of popularity (I think that the actual numbers may be available in the year end report issued to members...not sure).

See: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... ation.html

and: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... vious.html

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Sharon » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:03 pm

Thanks for the link. Never heard of that forum and am now on my 5th JRT Thanks.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:57 am

chiendog wrote:The AKC stopped publishing total numbers of registrations around 2010 I think since it was becoming too obvious that they were in steep decline. Now they only publish a list of breeds in order of popularity (I think that the actual numbers may be available in the year end report issued to members...not sure).

See: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... ation.html

and: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... vious.html

I blame soccer.

And... the increase of use "restricted pedigree" Folks who buy dogs have less incentive to show and test while the "club" gets smaller and smaller.

In the end, they strangle themselves.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by JONOV » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:06 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:
chiendog wrote:The AKC stopped publishing total numbers of registrations around 2010 I think since it was becoming too obvious that they were in steep decline. Now they only publish a list of breeds in order of popularity (I think that the actual numbers may be available in the year end report issued to members...not sure).

See: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... ation.html

and: https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2 ... vious.html

I blame soccer.

And... the increase of use "restricted pedigree" Folks who buy dogs have less incentive to show and test while the "club" gets smaller and smaller.

In the end, they strangle themselves.
They really do. A Doodle or a Silver lab has taken the place of the Cocker Spaniel of yore.

There is also a tremendous sense of what my Mother would call "Catholic Guilt" among many when it comes to buying a puppy. I've seen it firsthand fostering. Its a shame too, because despite what some would have you believe, there isn't an epidemic of homeless dogs, there's an epidemic of homeless pit bulls. And nothing against them, I like most everyone I've met, but you get no "benefit of the doubt" and your insurance company or landlord is likely to frown on it as well.

And the show-ring as the centerpiece of the organization is going to die. I hate to say it, but almost every breeder I've talked to that's extremely active/influential with their breed in the AKC on the show side of things, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. When they start talking about things like "head shape' or "angulation of the shoulders" I get really worried, that they bred a dog with a nice blocky head over an equally healthy dog with a better temperament or better hunting chops.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Urban_Redneck » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:08 am

JONOV wrote:
There is also a tremendous sense of what my Mother would call "Catholic Guilt" among many when it comes to buying a puppy. I've seen it firsthand fostering. Its a shame too, because despite what some would have you believe, there isn't an epidemic of homeless dogs, there's an epidemic of homeless pit bulls. And nothing against them, I like most everyone I've met, but you get no "benefit of the doubt" and your insurance company or landlord is likely to frown on it as well.
[/quote][/quote]

The "I rescued" folks :roll:

"Rescues" have become big business, to the point that there are mobile, wholesale auctions supplying "shelters". Some of the non-profit entrepreneurs even import dogs from outside the US, a practice that brought canine influenza to America.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by cjhills » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:04 am

Unless the breeder registers the litter, a very low percentage of family companion/ hunting dogs are registered.
Only about twenty percent Of my puppies are registered and most of them are mine. It does not make a lot of sense to me to force a buyer to register and get a NA or junior title on a pup who will be neutered and spend his life as a family hunting dog and was bought for that purpose. I get restricted registrations but it does cause a lot of puppies to go unregistered......Cj

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by averageguy » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:20 am

I lean towards folks get the dog they deserve.

Do good research, find an excellent litter and prospect for whatever your purpose. Folks who do that most often also do justice to working with their puppies to turn out a decent or better dog.

Those who are lazy and haphazard about acquiring their puppies instead, may well get a maladjusted health mess of a dog. And their training work is often lacking adding to the problem.

What others do with their dogs mostly does not affect me. I find dedicated Breeders doing an excellent job over many generations of dogs and get my puppies from them.

I think the AKC gets a bad rap to some extent. Not like they are contacting people and telling them which dogs to breed.

Better educated buyers would shape and discipline the market if they were more common. They do in the quality gun dog arena.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by Sharon » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:53 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
JONOV wrote:
There is also a tremendous sense of what my Mother would call "Catholic Guilt" among many when it comes to buying a puppy. I've seen it firsthand fostering. Its a shame too, because despite what some would have you believe, there isn't an epidemic of homeless dogs, there's an epidemic of homeless pit bulls. And nothing against them, I like most everyone I've met, but you get no "benefit of the doubt" and your insurance company or landlord is likely to frown on it as well.

..........................................

The "I rescued" folks :roll:

"Rescues" have become big business, to the point that there are mobile, wholesale auctions supplying "shelters". Some of the non-profit entrepreneurs even import dogs from outside the US, a practice that brought canine influenza to America.



...................................................................................

Oh. Oh. I'm one of those I rescued folk :) Not from a back yard breeder as we don't want to encourage them in any way , but from Animal Control. The Jack Russell Terrier is one of the most common breeds in Animal Control Centre here - relinquished to Animal Control or sent off with no collar....
They are one of the cutest puppies so folks buy them , but they are not a first time dog owner pet.
I like the challenge and they deserve a chance - am on my fifth now....Sharon

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by JONOV » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:49 am

cjhills wrote:Unless the breeder registers the litter, a very low percentage of family companion/ hunting dogs are registered.
Only about twenty percent Of my puppies are registered and most of them are mine. It does not make a lot of sense to me to force a buyer to register and get a NA or junior title on a pup who will be neutered and spend his life as a family hunting dog and was bought for that purpose. I get restricted registrations but it does cause a lot of puppies to go unregistered......Cj
I think with NAVHDA the advantage is that you can, to a certain extent, see the product on a litter wide level. If you have a litter of 9 pups and 6 test NA and you are able to see that 5 have bad bites, or that they all do really well or poorly, that tells you something.
averageguy wrote:I lean towards folks get the dog they deserve.
I've also seen people buy really well bred dogs then find out that they have to invest in the dog to make use of those genetics. I see it with Shorthairs most. I've also seen people take shelter dogs and make them into awesome pets, but they have an "eye" for what they look for at the pound and a decent handle on how to be a dog owner. My mom's like that with her last two; including a Golden Retriever that was known by name to the local police force for his escapades (due to an absentee owner.)
averageguy wrote:I think the AKC gets a bad rap to some extent. Not like they are contacting people and telling them which dogs to breed.
I agree. They're basically a studbook. However, I'll say that compared to other studbooks, to some people, the Brand, the concept of "AKC Papers," is a byword for quality that is a fiction.

If they buy a poorly bred dog that has these problems they (often incorrectly) then blame the AKC. Much of the blame should go to the breed club, etc...

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:31 am

IMO, the AKC is, in essence, a studbook for member breed clubs. The member breed clubs set the requirements and the standards for their particular breed.

The fact is that the preponderance of the membership of the breed clubs and the control of those breed clubs...including the sporting breeds and hound breeds... is in the realm of the conformation end of the stick. What is good for the conformation(dog show) folks is what gets implemented by the breed club, then codified and enforced by the AKC.

Unfortunately, the performance aspect of the breeds, including the sporting and hound breeds, gets little or no consideration. So...guess what happens? Performance takes a back seat to appearance and ...performance suffers.

There are dedicated folks in many of the sporting breeds(and I know a few of them) who strive to keep the performance level of their chosen breed up to the highest level possible, but it is a struggle, because they not only have to work against the loss of hunting habitat and the resultant shrinking of the hunter base which supports their breeding efforts, but also have to deal with fewer and fewer quality males and females with which to carry forward. I give those folks all the credit in the world for doing what they do.

For me and my needs, the AKC numbers are pretty much irrelevant. I have pointers... American Field pointers. Most of them would get laughed out of the show ring, and I'm OK with that. There are some aspects of the AKC pointer standard that I think are of real value, such as tight feet with a cat's paw appearance. There ARE things in the standard which enhance the performance potential of the breed, but, to be frank, I do not care so much for the overall look of the "classic" AKC pointer or how they typically hunt.

If I want a field dog... I look to the Field Dog Stud Book of the American Field. The dogs registered there are registered for one reason and one reason only....Performance in the field. There is no conformation component to the American Field. None at all, which is probably not ideal . Pretty is as pretty does, for the most part and form follows function. Now, I will have to say that there are some things from a conformation perspective, such as undershot jaws in pointers, which are quite undesirable even though they do not affect hunting performance.

The breeds registered almost exclusively in the American Field are the pointer and the setter(English or Irish) The breeds most often dual registered AF and AKC would be the GSP and the lately, the Brittany. There are a smattering of other breeds which are dual registered, such as the Vizsla, but their numbers are relatively few.

The dogs of breeds, other than pointers and setters, which are cross registered, I suspect most often are competitive dogs bred by and for folks who compete in the occasional AF field trial as well as AKC field trials.

RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by cjhills » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:13 am

Without any oversite you can register any dog with registered parents. So, basically AF and AKC are only a way to track bloodlines. Both do a good pretty good job of that. It does take some breeder discretion, DNA helps with that. We can all see bite problems and other faults on very young puppies. The only thing that would disqualify a dog in a AKC show ring would be very obvious faults.
The NAVHDA conformation inspection is not the greatest and by 6 months you know if the pup has bite issues ....Cj

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:25 am

cjhills wrote: So, basically AF and AKC are only a way to track bloodlines. Both do a good pretty good job of that. We can all see bite problems and other faults on very young puppies. The only thing that would disqualify a dog in a AKC show ring would be very obvious faults.
The NAVHDA conformation inspection is not the greatest and by 6 months you know if the pup has bite issues ....Cj
Both the AKC and AF pedigree databases record and track a dog's performance in field trials. As such, they do a good bit more than track bloodlines. They track performance of those bloodlines against a standard. You need to understand and appreciate what the pedigree is showing you. If one opts to avoid dogs and lines with field trial or hunt test credentials, the pedigrees can obviously offer guidance there... in what to avoid.

If, however, one places no value in field trial or hunt test competitions, then I suppose they are of limited use.

In AF, three numbers are displayed on the FDSB pedigree below each dog's name. The first number is the number of field trial placements on that dog. Also displayed are the number of dogs that dog sired or whelped and the total number of placements of the dogs sired or whelped. In the front of the dog's name, if the designation Ch. is found, that means that that dog placed first in a head to head championship competition of at least one hour duration against all competition and was judged by two impartial, objective judges who neither own, train or handle the dog.

So, it is fair to say, I think, that a five generation FDSB pedigree from the American Field gives the reader who knows what they are looking at, a fair amount of information on the dog in question. There is a lot more, once you get into it, but it does take some digging.

On and AKC pedigree, there can be a whole lot more alphabet soup, but if you take the time to read what the letters mean, there is a lot of information there.

For example, the letters SH after the dog's name means that the dog has achieved the title of Senior Hunter, which means it passed several(I think three or four) separate Senior Hunter test in front of impartial accredited judges. The title FC(field champion) or AFC(Amateur Field Champion) before the dog's name, means that the dog has accumulated ten(10) championship points in head to head competitions, against amateur(AFC) handled or pro(FC) handled dogs, typically of 30 minutes duration being judged again by two accredited, impartial judges. The process of awarding points is somewhat complex, but it is safe to say that to be awarded and FC or AFC, that dog had to place in at least three trials and beat out somewhere on the order of fifty or sixty dogs in the process.

There is a whole lot more to the designations on the AKC pedigree from the performance aspect. They wrote a book on it...literally.

I have no experience with what the Navhda pedigree shows, so cannot comment on that.

Since I have never entered a dog in a conformation show, and never will I have no idea what would be considered a disqualifying fault in the conformation arena. However, I have seen more than enough AKC pointers in AKC field trials that were conformation champions and talked to enough AKC conformation competitors on the subject to know that, in the show ring...they simply ain't lookin' for what I got.

And FWIW, I am fine with that. Different strokes for different folks.

Lastly, I have purchased pups that had perfect bites at 8 weeks, only to have them develop into undershot by about 12 months... far too late to do anything about, unfortunately. They each made very good bird dogs, but were never bred.

RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by shags » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:06 am

...that were conformation champions and talked to enough AKC conformation competitors on the subject to know that, in the show ring...they simply ain't lookin' for what I got.

Years ago I joined a local English Setter club, thinking that if I could help them to put on some field trials, it would make them a few bucks, as well as give me more local trials to enter. The club was all bench folks, with a few people with upland hunting experience long past.

At my first meeting, I was asked if I had any pics of my dog. So I pulled out a couple of my FDSB registered setter.

The reaction was priceless to me, and gives me a chuckle to this day... "Oh, he's...ummmm cute. But don't worry honey, some of us have one of those skeletons in our closets too"

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by averageguy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:19 am

NAVHDA pedigrees show each dog's registered name and ID #, health testing results e.g. Hips, Thyroid, Elbows, and NAVHDA Hunt test results, coloration and whelp date. The NAVHDA database shows every NAVHDA Hunt test the dog has run,the scoring in each area evaluated e.g. search, pointing, retrieve to hand, duck search, tracking, heeling, steadiness ..., the owner and handler, the Judging team, and the Chapter Location and Date of the test. For dogs with progeny it will show all of the same information for each of those dogs as well. Top notch system and information.

Evaluations at Tests include the Judging team performing a hands on physical examination of the dog which provides a readout on the dogs temperament during the exam, its bite, missing teeth or not, and a specific rating on its coat both outer and undercoat, density and texture. Any defects noted during the exam will be recorded as public record, as is all the the rest of the information.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:54 am

Shags -

I am on fairly good terms with a fair bunch of Brittany folks who are serious FT competitors. Many do both AKC and dual AF/AKC sanctioned field trials. There are a couple that also show their dogs.
I know a few Pointer folks that both trial and show. I know an AKC Irish setter couple who just gave up trialing recently, due to age, health and the desire to spend more time with family going forward. They were all in for a loooong time.
There are a number of shorthair folks I know who compete in both AF and AKC trials. Again there are a few who do conformation with their dogs as well.
I recently got to know some AKC English Setter folks who are REAL serious about developing dual dogs. They are getting it done too.

I genuinely respect what they are trying to do with and for their respective breeds and applaud them for doing, and enjoying, a variety of things with their dogs.

To sorta get back on topic, I will make one comment on pedigrees that I wish could be addressed(but I do not know how). The placements on an AF pedigree are lumped together as a number. There is no discrimination between horseback and walking or all age, shooting dog and cover dog placements. To excel in these different types of stakes typically takes a different type of performance and thus, to an extent, a different skill set on the part of the dog. It is not easy for the casual observer to dig up that information.

This makes evaluating the relative abilities of dogs in an AF pedigree difficult, even if you have a fair understanding of the performance expectations for the various stakes.

RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by shags » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:48 pm

Ray,

Well, I have another experience where at my first AF trial, Where I knew not a soul, a fella kindly asked about my FDSB setter out of all-age breeding. I told him we were new here, but had run lots of AKC trials. The guy thought my dog was really pretty and wondered if he was a show champion.

IME the mainly-AKC breeds like Brittanies and GSPs that acquire wins in AF trials do so in closed-to-that-breed AF trials, which are sometimes dually sanctioned with AKC. When dually sanctioned, the club is to use the guidelines and rules of AKC. There are solely sanctioned AF trials for "off" breeds i.e. not pointers and setters, but most are restricted breed. For example the GSPs, Vs, and maybe Brittanies run breed championships sanctioned solely by AF, not open to other breeds.

This is NOT to say that any dogs of rhose breeds don't run, and win, in all breed AF, but it doesn't happen often as far as I know.

So when reading pedigrees, it helps to know the who-what-where concerning particular titles. Even when breedings look good on paper, it behooves buyers to have some knowlege of individual dogs.

In my area we lots of very competitive dual type dogs. I think the folks who swing both ways have their work cut out for them, and they surely do work, and work hard. IME, in my area, the dual setters ( all 4 breeds) and pointers do a good job and the main downside I see in them has to do mostly with lacking lofty style. Doesn't hurt much in AKC trials, would most likely keep them out of placements in AF, and I don't know how it would go for then in other formats.

There's something for everyone out there :D

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Shags -

That is interesting. It shows there are real regional differences.

In my area, there is a healthy NGSPA(American Field GSP) contingent. There are several NGSPA championships run at Wye Island in MD. They are, of course, for GSP's only, but they are run under American Field rules.
There is also a good number of AKC GSP clubs hereabouts, and their trials are almost always open to all breeds.
There are several Brittany clubs in the area as well and while the occasional championship or Grand event is restricted to Brittanys, the vast majority of their trials are open to all breeds.

The three Vizsla clubs in the area also generally run trials open to all breeds.

I guess we are lucky in my area because there is a healthy mixture of different breeds with a number of dogs and handlers in each of the various breeds that can get it done in any competition.

I have seen many occasions, and judged a few, as well where a dog from any of a half dozen typically AKC breeds has opened a can of whipas$$ on the rest of the competition.

There was one time my dog had a virtually perfect, five find performance in a half hour gundog stake and he placed second to a Wirehair that did it just a little bit better. That dog handled like she was on a string, rocked every find, nailed two backs and the handler never made so much as a sound all the way 'round. Impressed the heck out of me.

It makes me smile, even when I am one of those whose dog got their clock cleaned. I think it is neat. I have competitive amateur pointers and my dogs have been beat, fair and square, in both AKC Gun Dog and AF Shooting dog or derby stakes, by E. Setters, Gordons, Vizslak, GSP's, Brittanys. There are even some GSP's, a couple of Brittanys and a couple of V's that can hang with my guys in all age competition, but I would say they are the exception.

RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by shags » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:48 pm

Sounds great out your way, Ray. I've been to Petersburg and Three Rivers, and is it Fairview, the horse competition venue? several times, and the competition is loads of fun.

At one of my club's trials, we had the AKC National Champions Gordons, Irish, Brittany, GSP, Vizsla, Weim, and GWP. This was back when we ran at Killdeer Plains. I think our judges had a ball at that one, and we all had a great time going head to head. One of our regular entries was the most titled GSP in breed history. That dog had almost the entire alphabet around his name :D Fun times.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:08 am

shags wrote:Sounds great out your way, Ray. I've been to Petersburg and Three Rivers, and is it Fairview, the horse competition venue? several times, and the competition is loads of fun.

At one of my club's trials, we had the AKC National Champions Gordons, Irish, Brittany, GSP, Vizsla, Weim, and GWP. This was back when we ran at Killdeer Plains. I think our judges had a ball at that one, and we all had a great time going head to head. One of our regular entries was the most titled GSP in breed history. That dog had almost the entire alphabet around his name :D Fun times.
I do believe we met at Petersburg, and again at Wye Island some years ago. BTW - The horse venue you mentioned was probably Fair Hill in NE Maryland. According to some folks who were in it longer than I , they ran GSP trials there once upon a time. I do hope our paths will cross again.

The trial you mentioned must have been amazing. That kind of attendance at a trial is something special. It cuts through so many of the stereotypes and misconceptions about the various breeds, when you see the best of the best, from different breeds, doing what they do. Events like that can be a real education and eye opener.

Some of the best dogs and handlers are members of or attend trials at the English Setter Club of America in Medford, NJ. No matter who sponsors the trial, you know you had better bring your A game because there are top dogs and top amateur handlers from several different breeds that will be there. It is always fun for me, but it sure can be humbling and, if you HAVE to win...frustrating as well.

If you get the opportunity, go to Greenwood Forest WMA for a trial. It is in the Pine Barrens of NJ and an awesome place to run and show a dog. Mix of piney woods and bunchgrass fields. Some of the best of the best in American Field will be in attendance there at the open championships and companion classics. It is all sand, so it can get VERY hot there in the late spring or early fall.

RayG







That GSP was probably Katie Tazza's dog. I saw it run a couple of times. Very nice dog. It had more letters in front and in back than I had ever seen.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by fuzznut » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:27 am

Ray- you have one of the best memories in the history of man!!! Every time I see you post that story- I smile. Thanks!!!

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by fuzznut » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:34 am

I believe, one reason AKC no longer posts the registration stats for every breed has to do with the AR movement. It was giving them fuel for their fire.

Sadly, many of us fell right into the trap, started using limited registration for everything because we thought we were being good stewards of our breeds and responsible. It has come full circle and there are now many breeds on the verge of becoming extinct.

The Adopt Don't Shop gang are still out there- still going strong and unfortunately we now have an entire generation who believe anyone who BUYS a dog is evil and a puppy mill heck bent on nothing but making money. Until we all stop fighting each other, support everyone with a purebred dog no matter what game they choose to play it won't stop.

Have fun with your choice of breed, enjoy whatever it is you choose to do with them.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by cjhills » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:52 am

cjhills wrote:Without any oversite you can register any dog with registered parents. So, basically AF and AKC are only a way to track bloodlines. Both do a good pretty good job of that. It does take some breeder discretion, DNA helps with that. We can all see bite problems and other faults on very young puppies. The only thing that would disqualify a dog in a AKC show ring would be very obvious faults.
The NAVHDA conformation inspection is not the greatest and by 6 months you know if the pup has bite issues ....Cj
Ray:
Omitting the first line of my post in your quote, makes your reply misleading . I am fully aware of what the letters on a pedigree, before or after the registered name, mean. Akc and AF clearly are a way to track bloodlines. Akc Tracks AKC performance, show and all other Akc events. the also track OFA if the dog is permantly identified. What I am saying is AKC does not disqualify a dog for obvious faults. you can register any dog with registered parents. I do not know if AF does, because my dogs are AKC registered.
You probably have more experience with bite issues than I, but when I had that issue it was clearly noticeable when the puppies got teeth.
NAVHDA does some inspections at the NA level not sure about higher levels and some conformation inspections. I know of some famous NAVHDA bloodlines that have serious bite issues. As long as the dog that is inspected does not show signs of bite issues there is nothing they can do, Even when the sire is a well known carrier of bite issue genes. This was an expensive and sad lesson for me when I had to neuter my very the very best master dog I ever had, because every time we bred him we got overbites.......Cj

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:39 pm

cjhills wrote:
cjhills wrote:Without any oversite you can register any dog with registered parents. So, basically AF and AKC are only a way to track bloodlines. Both do a good pretty good job of that. It does take some breeder discretion, DNA helps with that. We can all see bite problems and other faults on very young puppies. The only thing that would disqualify a dog in a AKC show ring would be very obvious faults.
The NAVHDA conformation inspection is not the greatest and by 6 months you know if the pup has bite issues ....Cj
Ray:
Omitting the first line of my post in your quote, makes your reply misleading . I am fully aware of what the letters on a pedigree, before or after the registered name, mean. Akc and AF clearly are a way to track bloodlines. Akc Tracks AKC performance, show and all other Akc events. the also track OFA if the dog is permantly identified. What I am saying is AKC does not disqualify a dog for obvious faults. you can register any dog with registered parents. I do not know if AF does, because my dogs are AKC registered.
You probably have more experience with bite issues than I, but when I had that issue it was clearly noticeable when the puppies got teeth.
NAVHDA does some inspections at the NA level not sure about higher levels and some conformation inspections. I know of some famous NAVHDA bloodlines that have serious bite issues. As long as the dog that is inspected does not show signs of bite issues there is nothing they can do, Even when the sire is a well known carrier of bite issue genes. This was an expensive and sad lesson for me when I had to neuter my very the very best master dog I ever had, because every time we bred him we got overbites.......Cj
Actually, it is not misleading at all, but rather it cuts to the heart of the opinion of some folks..yourself included... who consider field trials are not relevant to bird dog performance. I firmly believe that they are very relevant to the future of the pointing dog breeds as they offer concrete evidence of a relatively objective appraisal(s) of the abilities and skills of the individual dog.

It seems to me that your opinion on the subject tends to be even more extreme, to the effect that field trial performers are to be avoided in a breeding program that focuses on producing dogs for bird hunters. Your opinions are however, your opinions, and you are entitled to them.

I am also entitled to disagree...and offer rebuttal.

If anything is misleading, it is your repeated attempts to marginalize the opinion of those who disagree with yours and misdirect readers. Fortunately, you are apparently not very good at it.

I do not compete in conformation events , but I am ABSOLUTELY sure that in such events, dogs are indeed disqualified for obvious flaws. There are NUMEROUS color standards for different breeds and the wrong color is immediate grounds for disqualification in the show ring. Even I know THAT.

It would seem that the Navhda system checks off a lot of boxes regarding evaluation of the individual dog's abilities. I appreciate Averageguy's informative description of their process.


RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by averageguy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:16 pm

NAVHDA performs physical examinations at both the NA and the UT level.100%. So both puppy and adult dogs are examined including their temperaments, conformation, coats, teeth and bites. Only UT Prize 1 dogs are invited to test at the Invitational Level so they have all been inspected as adult dogs via their UT path to get there.

I am not aware of any Prominent NAVHDA line of dogs that does not test their dogs at both the NA and UT levels, so chances of a major NAVHDA Kennel line of dogs having a widespread bite problem, that is not also widely known by anyone who takes a moment to look at that line of dogs is near zero. All the progeny which have been run through an NA test will have been examined so the offspring of any and all NAVHDA Registered Sire or Dam can be easily reviewed using the database tool for its designed purpose.

To be clear I am not saying there are no NAVHDA lines of dogs with a bite problem. I am saying there is no legitimate excuse for being surprised by it when the extensive test system and related database make it a matter of pubic record for each dog tested that has such a problem

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by cjhills » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:58 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
cjhills wrote:
cjhills wrote:Without any oversite you can register any dog with registered parents. So, basically AF and AKC are only a way to track bloodlines. Both do a good pretty good job of that. It does take some breeder discretion, DNA helps with that. We can all see bite problems and other faults on very young puppies. The only thing that would disqualify a dog in a AKC show ring would be very obvious faults.
The NAVHDA conformation inspection is not the greatest and by 6 months you know if the pup has bite issues ....Cj
Ray:
Omitting the first line of my post in your quote, makes your reply misleading . I am fully aware of what the letters on a pedigree, before or after the registered name, mean. Akc and AF clearly are a way to track bloodlines. Akc Tracks AKC performance, show and all other Akc events. the also track OFA if the dog is permantly identified. What I am saying is AKC does not disqualify a dog for obvious faults. you can register any dog with registered parents. I do not know if AF does, because my dogs are AKC registered.
You probably have more experience with bite issues than I, but when I had that issue it was clearly noticeable when the puppies got teeth.
NAVHDA does some inspections at the NA level not sure about higher levels and some conformation inspections. I know of some famous NAVHDA bloodlines that have serious bite issues. As long as the dog that is inspected does not show signs of bite issues there is nothing they can do, Even when the sire is a well known carrier of bite issue genes. This was an expensive and sad lesson for me when I had to neuter my very the very best master dog I ever had, because every time we bred him we got overbites.......Cj
Actually, it is not misleading at all, but rather it cuts to the heart of the opinion of some folks..yourself included... who consider field trials are not relevant to bird dog performance. I firmly believe that they are very relevant to the future of the pointing dog breeds as they offer concrete evidence of a relatively objective appraisal(s) of the abilities and skills of the individual dog.

It seems to me that your opinion on the subject tends to be even more extreme, to the effect that field trial performers are to be avoided in a breeding program that focuses on producing dogs for bird hunters. Your opinions are however, your opinions, and you are entitled to them.

I am also entitled to disagree...and offer rebuttal.

If anything is misleading, it is your repeated attempts to marginalize the opinion of those who disagree with yours and misdirect readers. Fortunately, you are apparently not very good at it.

I do not compete in conformation events , but I am ABSOLUTELY sure that in such events, dogs are indeed disqualified for obvious flaws. There are NUMEROUS color standards for different breeds and the wrong color is immediate grounds for disqualification in the show ring. Even I know THAT.

It would seem that the Navhda system checks off a lot of boxes regarding evaluation of the individual dog's abilities. I appreciate Averageguy's informative description of their process.


RayG
Your reply Is absolutely baffleing. What could my post possibly have to do with the relevancy of Field trials to bird dog performance. That Is pure BS.
You can register any dog in akc that has AKC registered parents of the same breed. that is what I said. The fact that the dog would be disqualified in a show as Zero to do with being registered.
People Expect a reasonable consistency in registered breeds But AKC does not require that, all the dog needs is registered parents Of the same breed To Be registered. That is my point nothing more or less. AKC traces Blood lines that is what they do. Part of the reason for keeping stats and Statistics is to trace bloodlines. I am sure you understand that.
I realize you are trolling me. I have no idea why. If it makes you feel Important go for it. You And your Key board Pal AG. Have a nice day now. thank for all your wonderful posts...…..Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 pm

fuzznut wrote:Ray- you have one of the best memories in the history of man!!! Every time I see you post that story- I smile. Thanks!!!
No Bernee -

I is I who should thank you. I thought I knew what a Gun Dog was supposed to do, but found out different...that day.

You showed me, up close and personal...what a Gun Dog, and a Gun Dog Handler was supposed to do. That is why I remember it so very well.

You and that fuzzy dog of yours set the bar...for me.

FWIW, I ain't seen better...yet. Still lookin'.

RayG

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Re: Complete breed registrations. Ranking and 5-year trends

Post by JONOV » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:28 pm

fuzznut wrote:I believe, one reason AKC no longer posts the registration stats for every breed has to do with the AR movement. It was giving them fuel for their fire.

Sadly, many of us fell right into the trap, started using limited registration for everything because we thought we were being good stewards of our breeds and responsible. It has come full circle and there are now many breeds on the verge of becoming extinct.
I agree...And you see how it is on facebook groups now too. A few loud, prominent voices that proclaim to know what's good and bad, and no one to say, "Bull. Why should I accept YOUR criteria as the be-all and end-all of whats breed-worthy." Frankly, it smacks of protectionism; protecting what they have years involved in building for financial and reasons of ego.
fuzznut wrote: The Adopt Don't Shop gang are still out there- still going strong and unfortunately we now have an entire generation who believe anyone who BUYS a dog is evil and a puppy mill heck bent on nothing but making money. Until we all stop fighting each other, support everyone with a purebred dog no matter what game they choose to play it won't stop.

Have fun with your choice of breed, enjoy whatever it is you choose to do with them.
Heh...I foster, for two Breed club rescues...I've suggested to more than one potential adopter "Why don't you buy a puppy from a good breeder? IT seems like a better long term fit for your goals." It comes out, a "Catholic Guilt" of sorts, often the spouse that insists on a rescue. Truth is, most non-bullies have no problem finding homes...

I think the No-Kill movement will ultimately be its own undoing...already dogs that should have been put down have been passed off to unsuspecting families causing real damage, even death, and they'll either change to protect themselves but I think its just a matter of time before people start to look back to breeders, for no other reason than having a puppy where you can account for its history.
birddogger2 wrote:Shags -

I am on fairly good terms with a fair bunch of Brittany folks who are serious FT competitors. Many do both AKC and dual AF/AKC sanctioned field trials. There are a couple that also show their dogs.
I know a few Pointer folks that both trial and show. I know an AKC Irish setter couple who just gave up trialing recently, due to age, health and the desire to spend more time with family going forward. They were all in for a loooong time.
There are a number of shorthair folks I know who compete in both AF and AKC trials. Again there are a few who do conformation with their dogs as well.
I recently got to know some AKC English Setter folks who are REAL serious about developing dual dogs. They are getting it done too.

I genuinely respect what they are trying to do with and for their respective breeds and applaud them for doing, and enjoying, a variety of things with their dogs.

To sorta get back on topic, I will make one comment on pedigrees that I wish could be addressed(but I do not know how). The placements on an AF pedigree are lumped together as a number. There is no discrimination between horseback and walking or all age, shooting dog and cover dog placements. To excel in these different types of stakes typically takes a different type of performance and thus, to an extent, a different skill set on the part of the dog. It is not easy for the casual observer to dig up that information.

This makes evaluating the relative abilities of dogs in an AF pedigree difficult, even if you have a fair understanding of the performance expectations for the various stakes.

RayG
I know what you mean but it doesn't seem that hard to figure out. Could a dog with a bunch of Miller blood be more of a Shooting dog or a cover dog? Possible, but more likely he's an AA type. A phone call or email would reveal a lot too, as would Google...

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