Let’s talk about registration

fishvik
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by fishvik » Sun May 12, 2019 1:04 pm

Fishmongerjoe wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am
Sorry AG but you provided no proof other than your opinion on pet labs. Fact of the matter is the hunting genes are alive and well in the Labrador lines, American and British. Labradors are thriving as Gundogs and Pets for the warriors of the weekend world wide. Even after multiple decades of “poor breeding” practices.


There is a reason that Labs are not only the #1 dog in ownership, but also a preferred breed as service dogs, seeing eye dogs, mountain rescue dogs, drug dogs, etc. They are physically able and trainable breed for many purposes along with a personality that usually means they can be trusted around adults, children and other dogs. In addition, I've never seen a Lab, no matter the breeding,that didn't have some hunt and find instinct and an almost unstoppable urge to retrieve. The same can not be said of all sporting breeds, particularly individuals in the "coated breeds". Even the Flabs, could most like walkin the field, find a bird and retrieve it on land or water. In my opinion, and obliviously many others, if there had to be only one breed of dog, that filled multiple niches, it would be a Lab.



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averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:54 am
The only thing limited registration tells you is that you need to be looking for a different breeder.
An opinion based on no actual experience with any breeder using limited registration. The functional equivalent of "I have never used an ecollar, but I heard that someone ruined a dog with one once, so I am sure they are an evil and harmful device...".

Fishvik,

No idea what "coated breeds" you talking about but I have never seen a dog in my breed that was not ate for retrieving. Just because I can tap into excellent dogs/genetics in my chosen breed does not require me to look past those that you could not give to me. There are dogs registered as GWPs that I would not own, as similar to the current state of Labs today there are segments of poor haphazard breeding in both.

Really unproductive how folks feel the need to be defensive about something so abundantly obvious in the marketplace is my thought on that.

Quailaddict,

you are posting fiction. If my dog purchased with a limited registration (which has been lifted since) had shown hip displaysia when tested, the breeder is contractually obligated to replace the dog or refund my money. The Dog tested fine which is no surprise given every dog in his 6 generation pedigree has been screened for good hips and more.

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CDN_Cocker
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed May 22, 2019 2:39 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm
CDN_Cocker wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:54 am
The only thing limited registration tells you is that you need to be looking for a different breeder.
An opinion based on no actual experience with any breeder using limited registration. The functional equivalent of "I have never used an ecollar, but I heard that someone ruined a dog with one once, so I am sure they are an evil and harmful device...".
Wow. Didn't know you knew anything about my experience with buying any of my dogs throughout my life. Tell me more about what an expert you are with other people's experience.

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Sharon
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Sharon » Wed May 22, 2019 2:45 pm

Sorry about that CC; AG has managed to insult 3 people in one post. :)
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averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Wed May 22, 2019 3:08 pm

The standards seem to be pretty inconsistent on this board. Apparently it is ok to insult the entire population of Breeders who make use of limited registration by posting it is an automatic reason to avoid them, but when someone with good experience with a Breeder using limited registration cries BS on that, it is a foul. Me thinks thou protests too much.

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Sharon
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Sharon » Wed May 22, 2019 3:12 pm

You have excellent experience , but there is a way to have a good discussion with out insulting people.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm

Sharon wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:12 pm
You have excellent experience , but there is a way to have a good discussion with out insulting people.
Start spreading that standard around evenly to all and things will likely improve.

birddogger2
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by birddogger2 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:44 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm
Sharon wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:12 pm
You have excellent experience , but there is a way to have a good discussion with out insulting people.
Start spreading that standard around evenly to all and things will likely improve.
I have been buying pointer puppies for over fifty years. I have NEVER purchased a puppy without a complete and unabridged set of registration papers, signed and dated at the time the money changed hands.

I actually do not know a single person who has bought either a pointer or a setter puppy with a limited registration...and I know a whole bunch of people who have bought pointer and setter pups.

I for one would never even consider buying a pointer pup without full rights and an unfettered registration. Just as I would not consider buying an automobile without a signed, unrestricted, bill of sale.

To each their own.

RayG

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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by birddogger2 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:06 pm

averageguy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:08 pm
The standards seem to be pretty inconsistent on this board. Apparently it is ok to insult the entire population of Breeders who make use of limited registration by posting it is an automatic reason to avoid them, but when someone with good experience with a Breeder using limited registration cries BS on that, it is a foul. Me thinks thou protests too much.
It is not, in my NEVER humble opinion, an insult to avoid breeders who make use of limited registrations. It is a choice of how one spends their money. As I said previously, I would not consider purchasing a pup with limited registration and would not deal with a breeder who uses limited registrations.

No insult...just not how I choose to spend my money.

RayG

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Urban_Redneck
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu May 23, 2019 8:53 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:44 pm
averageguy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm
Sharon wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:12 pm
You have excellent experience , but there is a way to have a good discussion with out insulting people.
Start spreading that standard around evenly to all and things will likely improve.
I have been buying pointer puppies for over fifty years. I have NEVER purchased a puppy without a complete and unabridged set of registration papers, signed and dated at the time the money changed hands.

I actually do not know a single person who has bought either a pointer or a setter puppy with a limited registration...and I know a whole bunch of people who have bought pointer and setter pups.

I for one would never even consider buying a pointer pup without full rights and an unfettered registration. Just as I would not consider buying an automobile without a signed, unrestricted, bill of sale.

To each their own.

RayG
Ray, I think it has much to do with the supply of quality pups. There are a ton of high quality pointer and setter pups that go for what many of us in the minority breed world see as short money.

Theoretically, limited registration should work to protect buyers when the population is small and the desire to breed only quality and qualified dogs exists. I do believe more than a few breeders, especially those who refuse to put in writing the milestones to lift a restriction, use it defensively to protect market share.

In the end, the money can always find a home.

birddogger2
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by birddogger2 » Thu May 23, 2019 9:17 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:53 am
birddogger2 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:44 pm
averageguy wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm


Start spreading that standard around evenly to all and things will likely improve.
I have been buying pointer puppies for over fifty years. I have NEVER purchased a puppy without a complete and unabridged set of registration papers, signed and dated at the time the money changed hands.

I actually do not know a single person who has bought either a pointer or a setter puppy with a limited registration...and I know a whole bunch of people who have bought pointer and setter pups.

I for one would never even consider buying a pointer pup without full rights and an unfettered registration. Just as I would not consider buying an automobile without a signed, unrestricted, bill of sale.

To each their own.

RayG
Ray, I think it has much to do with the supply of quality pups. There are a ton of high quality pointer and setter pups that go for what many of us in the minority breed world see as short money.

Theoretically, limited registration should work to protect buyers when the population is small and the desire to breed only quality and qualified dogs exists. I do believe more than a few breeders, especially those who refuse to put in writing the milestones to lift a restriction, use it defensively to protect market share.

In the end, the money can always find a home.
Urban -

I think you are partly correct. There is no apparent pressure to use limited registration for the big four, Pointer, E. Setter, Brittany and GSP that I can discern. As I think about it, I cannot recall anyone who trialed Vizslak or Weimaraners talking about limited registrations, and I have competed with some truly exceptional dogs...especially V's. I have had my butt kicked by a V on more than one occasion and had the opportunity to scout, judge and even handle a Weim that was, at the time the #3( I think...maybe 2 or 4) trial dog in the country.

I only knew one breeder of (I think) Wirehaired Pointing Griffons who trialed and I also do not recall any mention of limited registration regarding those dogs and some of them were quite competitive. One of her dogs kicked my butt as well.

Come to think about it, I am not even sure such a thing is possible or permissible under the Field Dog Stud Book, which is tied to American Field events.

Also, to my knowledge, none of the folks who belong to my local Navhda chapter use limited registration.

Seems to me that folks who are comfortable with the German system of having a breed warden approve breeding candidates might be more comfortable with having someone else tell them what they can and cannot do with their dog.

I am not comfortable with that. But that is just me. Like I said...to each their own.

RayG

averageguy
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by averageguy » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:00 am

My NAVHDA and AKC registered UT1 GWP and I are currently hunting in our 5th State since September. Doves, Teal, Ducks, Geese, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns, Chukars, Ruffed Grouse have been taken so far. Additional, not yet in season contacts, with Woodcock, Snipe, Bobwhites and Pheasants along the way. The dog is 3 years old and his Breeder is a dedicated, intelligent young man, raised as a hunter in Oregon, 20 years a Breeder.

Every dog on my dog's 6 generation pedigree has been both health and ability tested, not only in Hunt Test environments but most critically in a huge variety of wild game in wild places. His Breeder has the highest of standards, with only 1 out of 10 dogs on average that he retains, develops, hunts and evaluates, making the cut for his Breeding program.

It bears repeating for the benefit of this discussion.

This Breeder (and others of similar objectives and quality in this Breed) sells his puppy's with Breeding Restricted registrations. As is the case with my dog, those restrictions can and will be lifted if the dog passes some NA and Advanced Hunt Tests and its Hips, Elbows, and Thyroid are screened and confirmed as healthy. The sole objective is to ensure only healthy dogs, with excellent genetics for their intended design in the field hunting wild game, are used for breeding purposes.

The Breeder of my dog and several other Breeders of other dogs in his pedigree all live and hunt a huge variety of wild upland birds and waterfowl in the wild west and Canada. This Breeder's ultimate passion is hunting wild Chukars in the wildest of places in the Pacific NW. His Dam and Sire excel at it in every facet i.e. tough feet, never stop digging for birds tenacity, strong point, track and retrieve instincts to find, keep track of running coveys, point and hold birds and retrieve them under the toughest of conditions in steep rocky terrain, effective range and intelligent ground patterns are integral to all of this. The same dogs are asked to adapt to brushy low country pheasants, to alpine Blue Grouse, waterfowl from dead of winter Snake River canyon, sometimes on the same day ...

Two days ago my Dog got his first opportunity to hunt wild Chukars. The dog worked over 30 miles, found, tracked, and pointed 4 coveys of Chukars (in a down bird year), and retrieved my 6 bird limit from them, including two tracking crippled bird recoveries in rock slide cliffs. This dog has a huge volume and variety of experience that preceded this performance but I reflected on his Breeder's dedication to his genetics that are at the core of his abilities. I did a nice job of developing and training this dog and have given him more than a lifetime of opportunity already in his first 3 years, but it is his genetics that are at the core of his abilities.

Two different life time bird hunters witnessed my dog's performance over the last 3 days on this trip. These men run and are dedicated to different breeds of dogs. They both made unsolicited comments that my dog was far better than their dogs which have years of experience in this country and birds that my dog does not. One remarked that if he was younger he would be getting a pup from my dog's Breeder.

When a guy knows all that I have learned through decades of experience on this exact subject of dogs being sold with reasonable Breeding Restrictions (which are also lifted when those conditions are met) I believe that the conversation benefits from airing those facts.

That is particularly the case when the bulk of the comments on the other side of the discussion are from persons who have not one single actual experience with the Subject of the Thread.

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Sharon
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Re: Let’s talk about registration

Post by Sharon » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:17 pm

This topic has been well discussed/argued since its inception on May 23.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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