Steady to flush- question

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Joe3232
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Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:10 pm

My 7 month old puppy seems to have regressed slightly. Its over 2-3 training sessions, I am not panicking and realize nothing will be perfect, just wondering what can I do to best get on track..

She WAS staying steady on point and letting me get in front of her, kick grass and after a minute or two flush a bird (then she would chase)

She is now, going on point, holding for a few minutes but will break when I go to get in front of her. Almost like she is worried I will take the bird. She allows me to get her in periphery but does not like me to approach her or the bird without moving.

Any tips? Thanks

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Sharon
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Sharon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:18 pm

You've been given good advice from the experts here.
The chasing is over. She holds on that bird until you send her on. Another person to flush the bird, or a launcher is needed.
I remember you saying you bought the Huntsmith training videos. If you follow that plan exactly everything should work out fine.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 pm

You won't heed my reply ......
You will herald the notes of comfort.
"Never , ever , ever Steal the Point" .....The dog will flush when you want the point .

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:34 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 pm
You won't heed my reply ......
You will herald the notes of comfort.
"Never , ever , ever Steal the Point" .....The dog will flush when you want the point .
I apologize I do not follow this. Mind explaining?

birddogger2
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:50 pm

Joe -

You obviously did not listen to the sound advice you were given previously by several posters.

You are now reaping the rewards of ignoring much of that advice.

Keep it up and your dog will soon be completely untrained. You are almost there. Congratulations.

Sorry for being blunt, but it annoys me when you give folks good advice, they ignore it and then ask for advice on how to fix things they screwed up because they didn't follow the advice they were given in the first place.

You need to go back and re-read the advice you were given. Stop screwing up your dog...it deserves better.


RayG

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by cjhills » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:24 pm

Joe:
You probably have not done anything to be alarmed about. This is the same as all the other problems. Lack of obedience training.
What you do need is a reliable way to stop the dog. That needs to be done in the yard without birds. You don't want to apply pressure to stop the dog until he clearly understands that bird scent means stop, a bird on the ground means stop and a bird in the air means. This training needs to start without birds and go to some sort of controlled flush. When you flush the bird, circle the dog and come in from the side. Don't punish the dog for breaking on the flush train him not to break......Cj

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:43 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:50 pm
Joe -

You obviously did not listen to the sound advice you were given previously by several posters.

You are now reaping the rewards of ignoring much of that advice.

Keep it up and your dog will soon be completely untrained. You are almost there. Congratulations.

Sorry for being blunt, but it annoys me when you give folks good advice, they ignore it and then ask for advice on how to fix things they screwed up because they didn't follow the advice they were given in the first place.

You need to go back and re-read the advice you were given. Stop screwing up your dog...it deserves better.


RayG
In no way is it my intention to waste anyones time or ruin a dog.

I am guessing this response is in regards to chasing.

Frankly- getting some conflicting advice. I know you (and others on here) have strongly advised against chasing. Others have told me let the dog chase, make sure its fun for the puppy the first year, little rules, she will figure it out on her own she cannot catch the bird, its easier to take drive out of a dog rather than put it in.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:13 am

Joe3232 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:34 pm
polmaise wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 pm
You won't heed my reply ......
You will herald the notes of comfort.
"Never , ever , ever Steal the Point" .....The dog will flush when you want the point .
I apologize I do not follow this. Mind explaining?
I think what Polmaise is meaning is that you are seen by the dog as being competition for the dog if you walk in front of it to flush a bird. The dog therefor moves in to flush in order to be "competitive."
In Britain dogs are eliminated from trials if the handler moves in front of the dog . In Britain the dog must point, hold the point and then flush on command.
To ensure our dogs will at once move forward to flush on command we often use "competition." The trainer walks or even runs forward in front of the pointing dog while simultaneously giving the dog the flush command in an excited tone of voice. The dog then charges forward and flushes the bird …..and is praised by the trainer.

Somehow you have made your dog think it is a British dog ! :lol: Go back and do things from scratch in the "American Way" if you want your dog to work in the American way.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by shags » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:59 am

Frankly- getting some conflicting advice. I know you (and others on here) have strongly advised against chasing. Others have told me let the dog chase, make sure its fun for the puppy the first year, little rules, she will figure it out on her own she cannot catch the bird, its easier to take drive out of a dog rather than put it in.

The thing is, you have to understand that advice doesn't apply to all dogs in every situation, and it isn't wise to simply take your pick from the offerings.

Sure, lots of trainers allow young pups to bump and chase. It can help to bring out drive and some if not most pups eventually get "trained by the bird" i.e. they learn they can't catch. BUT those pups are raw newbies.

IIRC when your obtained your pup she was started and had been through the beginning of the steadying process. With a dog that's is that has been brought along that far, you don't allow it to slide back - you must enforce the steadiness and progress from there. This is where fun stuff like setting out birds for the dog without a plan or system in place goes south. If the trainer doesn't know what should or shouldn't be allowed, the dog will decide and that decision is usually contrary to what we want as bird dog trainers.

There are exceptions to the no backsliding rule. For instance if a dog is somehow stuck in training, it may help to go back a step or two and restart from an earlier point. Or maybe a dog has lost confidence due to some training mistake or accident, it might help to go back and build the dog back up. But overall, when a dog is in a good spot, allowing it to backslide leads to trouble.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by cjhills » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:31 am

The dog is thinking we are stealing his point because we are. This is a issue in American training. That is why you need to have some sort of solid 'stand still' command before we try to train steady around birds. Also why a lot of trainers take all the style out of their dogs or have them sitting on point. American dogs learn to tolerate it. Hunting dogs figure out they get the retrieve, field trial dogs have the retrieve bred or trained out of them. In wolf packs sometimes the pointing wolf allows a different wolf to catch the bird. I have never figured out how they communicate that. But they do.
I don't know that the dog "deserves better" than you are doing. He would probably be much happier chasing and having a good time for the rest of his life. You probably wouldn't though.....Cj

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:04 am

Joe -

YOU said your dog was green broke and standing its birds. That means the dog was trained to stand.

YOU were told by several experienced trainers that a dog at that stage of training should not be allowed to continue to chase.

YOU did not listen to that advice. YOU let the dog regress. YOU messed up. Own it...fix it.

FWIW, I have read at least a dozen training texts, and been around half a dozen professional trainers, including three who were Handlers of the year... NONE of them advocate letting a green broke dog continue to chase. NONE.


Buy the training book, Training with MO by Martha Greenlee. Read through it. Buy the training book Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long. Read that one too. There are others, but they are two very good ones that are inexpensive and easy reads. Different approaches, but both are a wealth of information.

Now ...

PLEASE...Go back to yardwork and obedience and leave the birdwork entirely alone until your dog is dead reliable on heel, whoa, come, and kennel. I mean DEAD reliable, off lead. You need to be able to stop your dog...dead in its tracks... with a voice command. Then and only then should you re-introduce birds with your dog on a checkcord, to stop it, if necessary.

Yes it is boring, yes it is a PIA., Yes it is absolutely not sexy or exciting. But it is the best way I know to put in the framework for success and considering the trajectory of your training, it is the best way I can think of to get back to where you were when you got the dog and then move forward.

If you do the yardwork thoroughly...I absolutely guarantee that your dog will stand there like a marine major on a parade ground and watch the bird fly away with very little additional pressure.


Again...I do apologize for being blunt, but you are the dog's trainer and you need to do what the dog needs.

The fun and enjoyment will come later if you do the work now. I promise.

RayG

Joe3232
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:40 pm

shags wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:59 am
Frankly- getting some conflicting advice. I know you (and others on here) have strongly advised against chasing. Others have told me let the dog chase, make sure its fun for the puppy the first year, little rules, she will figure it out on her own she cannot catch the bird, its easier to take drive out of a dog rather than put it in.

The thing is, you have to understand that advice doesn't apply to all dogs in every situation, and it isn't wise to simply take your pick from the offerings.

Sure, lots of trainers allow young pups to bump and chase. It can help to bring out drive and some if not most pups eventually get "trained by the bird" i.e. they learn they can't catch. BUT those pups are raw newbies.

IIRC when your obtained your pup she was started and had been through the beginning of the steadying process. With a dog that's is that has been brought along that far, you don't allow it to slide back - you must enforce the steadiness and progress from there. This is where fun stuff like setting out birds for the dog without a plan or system in place goes south. If the trainer doesn't know what should or shouldn't be allowed, the dog will decide and that decision is usually contrary to what we want as bird dog trainers.

There are exceptions to the no backsliding rule. For instance if a dog is somehow stuck in training, it may help to go back a step or two and restart from an earlier point. Or maybe a dog has lost confidence due to some training mistake or accident, it might help to go back and build the dog back up. But overall, when a dog is in a good spot, allowing it to backslide leads to trouble.
This makes sense to me. Thank you

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:41 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:04 am
Joe -

YOU said your dog was green broke and standing its birds. That means the dog was trained to stand.

YOU were told by several experienced trainers that a dog at that stage of training should not be allowed to continue to chase.

YOU did not listen to that advice. YOU let the dog regress. YOU messed up. Own it...fix it.

FWIW, I have read at least a dozen training texts, and been around half a dozen professional trainers, including three who were Handlers of the year... NONE of them advocate letting a green broke dog continue to chase. NONE.


Buy the training book, Training with MO by Martha Greenlee. Read through it. Buy the training book Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long. Read that one too. There are others, but they are two very good ones that are inexpensive and easy reads. Different approaches, but both are a wealth of information.

Now ...

PLEASE...Go back to yardwork and obedience and leave the birdwork entirely alone until your dog is dead reliable on heel, whoa, come, and kennel. I mean DEAD reliable, off lead. You need to be able to stop your dog...dead in its tracks... with a voice command. Then and only then should you re-introduce birds with your dog on a checkcord, to stop it, if necessary.

Yes it is boring, yes it is a PIA., Yes it is absolutely not sexy or exciting. But it is the best way I know to put in the framework for success and considering the trajectory of your training, it is the best way I can think of to get back to where you were when you got the dog and then move forward.

If you do the yardwork thoroughly...I absolutely guarantee that your dog will stand there like a marine major on a parade ground and watch the bird fly away with very little additional pressure.


Again...I do apologize for being blunt, but you are the dog's trainer and you need to do what the dog needs.

The fun and enjoyment will come later if you do the work now. I promise.

RayG
I am willing to give up birds and just do obedience. No problem if thats the solution.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:27 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:34 pm
polmaise wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 pm
You won't heed my reply ......
You will herald the notes of comfort.
"Never , ever , ever Steal the Point" .....The dog will flush when you want the point .
I apologize I do not follow this. Mind explaining?
Joe said "I am willing to give up birds and just do obedience. No problem if thats the solution."


In two weeks lets see not hear , what that obedience is ? ..(No excuses about not knowing how to post videos or my pc doesn't support this or that ,There are plenty good folk on this admin team to tell you how to do it , and don't say you don't know how to press play on your phone .) ..Otherwise ..I#m done . Always nice for a Coach //or advisor even on internet to set goals for someone who genuinely wants to progress ..If that's what they really want ? ... Go Joe !! I have faith in you ..get it done .

Joe3232
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:35 pm

Hello,

I wanted to post a brief update on training. I am hoping this will help me log my progression and give more information to anyone kind enough to keep offering advice.

First off, I need to make a clarification. As a reminder we have a 7 month old setter that we purchased 2 months ago. I described her in this forum as “started”. In fairness the breeder never called her started. I thought a started dog just meant an older dog. Feel free to call me an idiot. The breeder was not deceptive, they just described her as dog they decided not to keep because there were carrying too many dogs. In conversations with the breeder it seemed like she had been on birds twice, one of which was the day we picked her up. She pointed, held and was shot over that day (and chased on flush). The breeder said she was a very strong natural pointer from a young age. This information and further advice we received led us to allowing her more chasing over the last two months.

When I got her I had no plan on entering her in a trial but now that I am getting into this I would like to see what she could do. I was planning on entering a puppy or junior hunt test later this winter but likely will hold off now given the strong advice on here to stay away from birds.

I did a short assessment and this is where we are on basic training-

Frequency- I spend 45 mins with her every AM (run/walk, feeding and training) and 20 minutes training at night. She is in the home with family all day.

Method- I have the huntsmith videos. I also picked up Paul Long’s book. This in conjunction withadvice on here will be the template for my training.

Commands:

Heel- This week was the first we worked on heel with a lead. I previously was not teaching her heel because of threads I read on here that described heel and sit as bad things to teach a pointer. Subsequent research has led me to decide to teach heel but not sit.

Recall- I tested her on a long leash (7ft) during walks in neighborhood while walking/distracted, she came back to me on command 4 of 4 times. On this test she held until I gave her a verbal release and treat. Later in the home she came in from yard 2 of 2 times on call but kinda zoomed past me. She does not seem to want to hold by my side until release unless on a lease or its apparent I have a treat in my hand. In fairness I did not initially teach her to do this as I didn’t realize it was something I wanted. On a negative note in the actual home she ignored me twice when I called while she was doing something she wanted to really do (mess with trash etc).

Woah- I am positively surprised that her woah is improving greatly after approx. 2 weeks of work. She woahed 4 of 4 times for me on a short leash while on a walk just on my verbal command (she was ahead of me when I did this). She held on 4 of 4 verbal woah commands in the kitchen while I dropped pieces of kibble in front of her face on the floor (I release her after 30 seconds to a minute). Her woah is not a freeze all muscle type reaction but move like stop moving and observe (if that makes sense). Outside with a tennis ball her performance with woah was good but not perfect. I tested her by throwing her tennis ball a few yards after a woah command. She was perfect twice, she hesitated then stopped or held for a moment before breaking twice and completely ignored me once (when I really tested her by throwing the ball behind her where she could not see).

Retrieve- I am positively surprised with retrieve too and completely owe to this forum. She had zero interest picking up a bumper or frisbee. She has been all about getting a tennis ball and bringing it to me. Thank you!

Overall I am really enjoying making a connection with her and learning about dog training.

Apologies for the long post but any positive or negative comments on above would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for all the help.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by deseeker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:01 pm

Keep working on her commands in new locations. She needs to learn she has to do them where ever you ask her to--not just around home. Once she gets different locations down, then start adding distractions (kids in the distance, dogs in the distance, noise, etc). Sounds like she is coming along.
Keep it up and have fun with her. :D

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by shags » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:33 am

Sounds like you're doing just fine. Thanks for the update.

For recall in situations like you described where she's digging through trash or doing something like that, try using a different command like Stop it'! or Leave it! Dogs can tell when we're annoyed. An annoyed owner isn't conducive to compliance to recall "Oops! I'm in trouble now!" Theoretically a dog should obey no matter what, but IMO they're always just only dogs with dog brains and it helps to accommodate that shortcoming sometimes :D

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by DonF » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:54 am

First of all, I train with remote launcher's and the dog take's a deep breath and I pop the bird. The dog is taught that it's the dog's movement that flush' the bird. Next and probably more important, your way ahead of where I would want to be. Your dog is a pup for crying out loud! Pup's do thing's like that. You have a game of get the bird going and the pup is liking to play. Pup move's the bird is popped, my mouth kept shut and let the pup chase. Another thing I suspect you did is test the pup by kicking a clumps of cover. If so you have taught the pup that you kicking at cover is going to flush the bird. So you've created game #2 and your PUP is getting it very well. When you go in, watch the pup. It so much as glances at you pop the bird, shut your mouth and go on. Nothing happened. And you should know right where the bird is planted. Don't look for it, watch the pup and movement you pop the bird immediately. PUP learn's it's movement is what pop's the bird. You go in looking for the bird and kicking around you are not training, your attempting to get the pup to move, works good doesn't it? Your gonna get the pup to move and, oh boy, you get to grab the PUP and set it back where it was. Big deal, you are playing with a PUP!!! It is learning exactly what you are training!!!! key word is PUP! Your playing with a puppy!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:56 am

Joe, I sort-of feel for you. It is unfair for those of us to offer info and ASSUME you will follow "my" recommendation when there are so many widely diverse offerings! So, let's throw in a few books, videos, TV programs and I ask, "Is it any wonder that you have conflicting or in the least ambiguous suggestions?!?
Pick your resolve and DELIVER the training.
I could add to your info overload but...I will ask you to understand that dogs will not follow a lost leader. See the over-all plan you intend to pursue. Be clear and confident in each session. DELIVER it.
To me it sounds like you have a delightful dog already. As such, he need be handled accordingly and NOT like some block head needing "traditional" training. Traditional processes will unravel this dog. Perhaps, that is what you are witness to?
I wish you all the best Joe!

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:42 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Hello,

I wanted to post a brief update on training. I am hoping this will help me log my progression and give more information to anyone kind enough to keep offering advice.

First off, I need to make a clarification. As a reminder we have a 7 month old setter that we purchased 2 months ago. I described her in this forum as “started”. In fairness the breeder never called her started. I thought a started dog just meant an older dog. Feel free to call me an idiot. The breeder was not deceptive, they just described her as dog they decided not to keep because there were carrying too many dogs. In conversations with the breeder it seemed like she had been on birds twice, one of which was the day we picked her up. She pointed, held and was shot over that day (and chased on flush). The breeder said she was a very strong natural pointer from a young age. This information and further advice we received led us to allowing her more chasing over the last two months.

When I got her I had no plan on entering her in a trial but now that I am getting into this I would like to see what she could do. I was planning on entering a puppy or junior hunt test later this winter but likely will hold off now given the strong advice on here to stay away from birds.

I did a short assessment and this is where we are on basic training-

Frequency- I spend 45 mins with her every AM (run/walk, feeding and training) and 20 minutes training at night. She is in the home with family all day.

Method- I have the huntsmith videos. I also picked up Paul Long’s book. This in conjunction withadvice on here will be the template for my training.

Commands:

Heel- This week was the first we worked on heel with a lead. I previously was not teaching her heel because of threads I read on here that described heel and sit as bad things to teach a pointer. Subsequent research has led me to decide to teach heel but not sit.

Recall- I tested her on a long leash (7ft) during walks in neighborhood while walking/distracted, she came back to me on command 4 of 4 times. On this test she held until I gave her a verbal release and treat. Later in the home she came in from yard 2 of 2 times on call but kinda zoomed past me. She does not seem to want to hold by my side until release unless on a lease or its apparent I have a treat in my hand. In fairness I did not initially teach her to do this as I didn’t realize it was something I wanted. On a negative note in the actual home she ignored me twice when I called while she was doing something she wanted to really do (mess with trash etc).

Woah- I am positively surprised that her woah is improving greatly after approx. 2 weeks of work. She woahed 4 of 4 times for me on a short leash while on a walk just on my verbal command (she was ahead of me when I did this). She held on 4 of 4 verbal woah commands in the kitchen while I dropped pieces of kibble in front of her face on the floor (I release her after 30 seconds to a minute). Her woah is not a freeze all muscle type reaction but move like stop moving and observe (if that makes sense). Outside with a tennis ball her performance with woah was good but not perfect. I tested her by throwing her tennis ball a few yards after a woah command. She was perfect twice, she hesitated then stopped or held for a moment before breaking twice and completely ignored me once (when I really tested her by throwing the ball behind her where she could not see).

Retrieve- I am positively surprised with retrieve too and completely owe to this forum. She had zero interest picking up a bumper or frisbee. She has been all about getting a tennis ball and bringing it to me. Thank you!

Overall I am really enjoying making a connection with her and learning about dog training.

Apologies for the long post but any positive or negative comments on above would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for all the help.
Video .Show us ?

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Sharon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:52 pm

Joe3232 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Hello,

I wanted to post a brief update on training. I am hoping this will help me log my progression and give more information to anyone kind enough to keep offering advice.

First off, I need to make a clarification. As a reminder we have a 7 month old setter that we purchased 2 months ago. I described her in this forum as “started”. In fairness the breeder never called her started. I thought a started dog just meant an older dog. Feel free to call me an idiot. The breeder was not deceptive, they just described her as dog they decided not to keep because there were carrying too many dogs. In conversations with the breeder it seemed like she had been on birds twice, one of which was the day we picked her up. She pointed, held and was shot over that day (and chased on flush). The breeder said she was a very strong natural pointer from a young age. This information and further advice we received led us to allowing her more chasing over the last two months.

When I got her I had no plan on entering her in a trial but now that I am getting into this I would like to see what she could do. I was planning on entering a puppy or junior hunt test later this winter but likely will hold off now given the strong advice on here to stay away from birds.

I did a short assessment and this is where we are on basic training-

Frequency- I spend 45 mins with her every AM (run/walk, feeding and training) and 20 minutes training at night. She is in the home with family all day.

Method- I have the huntsmith videos. I also picked up Paul Long’s book. This in conjunction withadvice on here will be the template for my training.

Commands:

Heel- This week was the first we worked on heel with a lead. I previously was not teaching her heel because of threads I read on here that described heel and sit as bad things to teach a pointer. Subsequent research has led me to decide to teach heel but not sit.

Recall- I tested her on a long leash (7ft) during walks in neighborhood while walking/distracted, she came back to me on command 4 of 4 times. On this test she held until I gave her a verbal release and treat. Later in the home she came in from yard 2 of 2 times on call but kinda zoomed past me. She does not seem to want to hold by my side until release unless on a lease or its apparent I have a treat in my hand. In fairness I did not initially teach her to do this as I didn’t realize it was something I wanted. On a negative note in the actual home she ignored me twice when I called while she was doing something she wanted to really do (mess with trash etc).

Woah- I am positively surprised that her woah is improving greatly after approx. 2 weeks of work. She woahed 4 of 4 times for me on a short leash while on a walk just on my verbal command (she was ahead of me when I did this). She held on 4 of 4 verbal woah commands in the kitchen while I dropped pieces of kibble in front of her face on the floor (I release her after 30 seconds to a minute). Her woah is not a freeze all muscle type reaction but move like stop moving and observe (if that makes sense). Outside with a tennis ball her performance with woah was good but not perfect. I tested her by throwing her tennis ball a few yards after a woah command. She was perfect twice, she hesitated then stopped or held for a moment before breaking twice and completely ignored me once (when I really tested her by throwing the ball behind her where she could not see).

Retrieve- I am positively surprised with retrieve too and completely owe to this forum. She had zero interest picking up a bumper or frisbee. She has been all about getting a tennis ball and bringing it to me. Thank you!

Overall I am really enjoying making a connection with her and learning about dog training.

Apologies for the long post but any positive or negative comments on above would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for all the help.

Good for you! Glad to hear it is going so well!
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:56 pm

Sharon wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:52 pm


Good for you! Glad to hear it is going so well!
where you been ? ..not posted for ages

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Sharon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:59 pm

I rarely post. I know 1/8th of what the better experienced members on here know and I don't like to put the moderator's name up there daily. Folks lacking confidence to publicly post often PM me and I help them in that way.

MY JRT - 6 years old- just came down with epilepsy. :(
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:42 am

So sorry to hear that Sharon, about your JRT.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Sharon » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:39 pm

Thank you. Sorry to take the thread off track. Let's get back to the OP's post. :)
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:52 pm

Just a quick update this week.

We are working 2-3x a day, for 10-15 mins and I am very happy with the progress.

Heel- Is not perfect but will woah and then heel while dragging leash in backyard. Imperfections lie in that she does not always heel immediately when I say woah. But I am happy with progress as she did not know command 2-3 weeks ago.

Place command- does 5-10 feet distance place command in kitchen 50-60% of first time i ask.

Woah- usually will woah at doorways and when i drop kibble on floor in front of her. Breaks a few times, not perfect

Here- will come to me on a long leash about 100% of the time when we walk in neighborhood despite distraction. really happy with this. Need to give her more practice off leash.

Thank you for ongoing help.

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:34 pm

Sharon wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:42 pm
Joe3232 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:10 pm
My 7 month old puppy seems to have regressed slightly. Its over 2-3 training sessions, I am not panicking and realize nothing will be perfect, just wondering what can I do to best get on track..

She WAS staying steady on point and letting me get in front of her, kick grass and after a minute or two flush a bird (then she would chase)

She is now, going on point, holding for a few minutes but will break when I go to get in front of her. Almost like she is worried I will take the bird. She allows me to get her in periphery but does not like me to approach her or the bird without moving.

Any tips? Thanks
At 8 months old I was doing other things that make up the 500 piece jigsaw puzzle of building a Bird dog that would look like the one on the front of the box .
It wasn't February, when it was 8 month old .May and June are the wrong times for pointing and sept-December for a 4-6 month old pup should be doing yard drills , not University degrees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqcipcH ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:33 pm

Here is my most recent training question...

Dog is doing well with yard exercises of "heel", "woah", repeat etc.

Problem is "woah" often means take one or two steps after the command then stop. She will hold the "woah" but does not stop immediately.

Will this cause problems down the road and any suggestions to fix it? Thanks

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by gundogguy » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:56 am

Joe3232 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:33 pm
Here is my most recent training question...

Dog is doing well with yard exercises of "heel", "woah", repeat etc.

Problem is "woah" often means take one or two steps after the command then stop. She will hold the "woah" but does not stop immediately.

Will this cause problems down the road and any suggestions to fix it? Thanks
Teach, FORCE, reinforce known behavior Dog is not whoaing if it does not stop. Fix this before you move on to more complicated behaviors.
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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:53 am

Why do you even need the dog to stop immediately on the whoa command. You can't use it to stop a dog in a hunt test and I assume not in a trial.
It is mostly used to caution a dog after it has stopped.....Cj

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:58 pm

I suppose if you look at it as a sequential process ,which most of you guys over there call a program when in training ?
The command Whoa' or Bananas is not the objective for the dog to understand ,merely the juncture where it can understand .
When the Hunt/find/locate process is driven more than brakes when it finds ,you end up with ''Not steady to flush" ...always good in early days to learn the first 3 parts of that sequential process, ...The transition and linking the 4th part requires training a chain of these events for any breed of dog in the Field of hunting game birds , or even ground game for that matter . ..So I backchain and start with throwing a bumper/dummy/bird in the air ......and catching it myself ...You can drop in whoa, or bananas or stop whistle or yukmashiny if you wish . If it makes you feel better as a handler you can continue with what ever word command you like , but the transition would be to have No command word , just the process linked when the dog flushes the game , it stops !! (That invariably allows Me or anyone else to shoot that game or not) ...and well,it saves a lot of time on the game missed by the gun ,waiting on the dog coming back :lol: ...You can then progress to having No whistle , No command to be steady to flush , then reach a new goal (if you wish) to command the dog to flush/bump, the game to be shot , then 'Whoa/stop' again ...in that sequential process , to shot game and fall , and mark it , and retrieve it to hand ...If you wish :wink: ...but if the game you participate in does not require this , then why waste time doing it ...For me personally . Every time No matter who or where or what the rules say I end up with more game in my bag even as my shooting ,or my comrades ability to shoot deteriorate in age :D

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:39 am

cjhills wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:53 am
Why do you even need the dog to stop immediately on the whoa command. You can't use it to stop a dog in a hunt test and I assume not in a trial.
It is mostly used to caution a dog after it has stopped.....Cj
Got it. I was not aware of that. Thank you. Please forgive me for being dumb and new!

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:23 am

polmaise wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:58 pm
I suppose if you look at it as a sequential process ,which most of you guys over there call a program when in training ?
The command Whoa' or Bananas is not the objective for the dog to understand ,merely the juncture where it can understand .
When the Hunt/find/locate process is driven more than brakes when it finds ,you end up with ''Not steady to flush" ...always good in early days to learn the first 3 parts of that sequential process, ...The transition and linking the 4th part requires training a chain of these events for any breed of dog in the Field of hunting game birds , or even ground game for that matter . ..So I backchain and start with throwing a bumper/dummy/bird in the air ......and catching it myself ...You can drop in whoa, or bananas or stop whistle or yukmashiny if you wish . If it makes you feel better as a handler you can continue with what ever word command you like , but the transition would be to have No command word , just the process linked when the dog flushes the game , it stops !! (That invariably allows Me or anyone else to shoot that game or not) ...and well,it saves a lot of time on the game missed by the gun ,waiting on the dog coming back :lol: ...You can then progress to having No whistle , No command to be steady to flush , then reach a new goal (if you wish) to command the dog to flush/bump, the game to be shot , then 'Whoa/stop' again ...in that sequential process , to shot game and fall , and mark it , and retrieve it to hand ...If you wish :wink: ...but if the game you participate in does not require this , then why waste time doing it ...For me personally . Every time No matter who or where or what the rules say I end up with more game in my bag even as my shooting ,or my comrades ability to shoot deteriorate in age :D
Thank you for the response and help

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:47 am

Joe:
I was certainly not accusing you of asking dumb questions. Your questions say you are smart enough to try to figure it out.
Mostly I was just thinking out loud about the value of absolute sliding stop on command in a pointing dog hunting or trialing situation.
We do not stop our dogs to get them to point. I do use it in training to stop a dog that breaks or caution a dog as walk in front or when training stop to wing, shot and fall. That is how most people use a whoa or whatever stop command you use. If your running dog takes a step after you give the command. I don't see it as a major problem. Unless you think he is ignoring you.
It is a little different with flushers.
As Polmaise says, it makes no difference what you use for a command to stop. I only called it whoa because that is what is generally used to stop appointing dog and what we were discussing.....Cj

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by Joe3232 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:35 am

cjhills wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:47 am
Joe:
I was certainly not accusing you of asking dumb questions. Your questions say you are smart enough to try to figure it out.
Mostly I was just thinking out loud about the value of absolute sliding stop on command in a pointing dog hunting or trialing situation.
We do not stop our dogs to get them to point. I do use it in training to stop a dog that breaks or caution a dog as walk in front or when training stop to wing, shot and fall. That is how most people use a whoa or whatever stop command you use. If your running dog takes a step after you give the command. I don't see it as a major problem. Unless you think he is ignoring you.
It is a little different with flushers.
As Polmaise says, it makes no difference what you use for a command to stop. I only called it whoa because that is what is generally used to stop appointing dog and what we were discussing.....Cj
I didn’t take any offense on the response. Just making fun of myself. Thanks again

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Re: Steady to flush- question

Post by setterpoint » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:33 pm

you been takeing some sharp criticism on hear, it's not that big of a deal with a dog that young the dogs in training and is going to make mistakes,
it's your job to correct those mistakes, some say do it this way others say no you got to do it another way, it's just another step in the training process
is your dog whoa trained,if not that should be your next step, if the dog has been taught whoa then it's up to you to enforce it
a bird launcher is a great tool for this mayby use a check cord to start just show the dog it can't move because the bird will flush

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