GUN SHY DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robjones]

Today was the first day out and I had shot a starter pistol around her and she was fine. However today she would run away from Me if I shot. I did not shoot over her as the bird was jumped by me and she was considerable distance away. She ran off. I thought she was chasing the bird . The second bird I jumped again she was away from us she ran and got in my truck! She would even get spoked if someone in a different field would shoot. So I put her up and and I went and hunted on my own. I put her up for a bout a hour and then went to get her because we had two birds dead in the field we couldnt find them. She had no interest so I got my dead bird I threw it in the weeds and she wanted nothing to do with it. I walked her for about another hour and we didnt see anymore birds. Near the end I let her get along way away from me. I shot away from her she went absolutely biserk. Basically she ran from me and hid. She finally came to my father.
Guys this is not my first hunting dog so I am not stupid. I have been all over this forum trying to figure out how to get this dog to point. Is it possible that this dog doesnt have the genetics?
Can this gun shyness be solved? If so What do I do?!!!!!!!

[tailcrackin]

Pm'd you Thanks, Jonesy

[WildRose]

Rob I after seeing this post I red through several of the other threads you've started and participated on lately.

You aren't an idiot but you aren't a dog trainer either and you need some one on one help from someone that IS a dog trainer and can read dogs.

You've gotten a lot of very good advice from most people on here, some advice I consider to be very bad and harmful; the trouble is at this point I can't tell what advice you are following if any.

It's hard to tell for sure since I can't see you and the dog working together but at this point it sounds to me like if you continue on as you have been you are going to have a hopelessly screwed up dog very soon that is going to need a lot of time, patience, and a very good trainer to undo if you don't get help right now.

On these forums you can't tell who's giving the advice, meaning do they REALLY have any more idea of what they are doing than you do and it's very easy to get hauled in by somone that maybe writes well but knows less than you do.

If you can't find somone locally with a lot more expereince to help you out one on one call me and I'll try and help you. CR

[jhoughton]

Stop shooting the gun around the pup and get it to a Pro Trainer. Some dogs won't point until they mature a little and need to bump wild birds for a while to figure it out. If the dog is gun shy, it is almost always the trainers fault for not introducing the gun properly.

What seperates most of us from the pro trainers is their ability to read the dog and determine how to deal with a problem. This comes from training hundreds of dogs and something that only experience can provide. I would suggest having a good pro look at the dog and help you get it sorted out. It will be money well spent...

[kninebirddog]

Ditto on going to some one who has dog handling experience

Introducing the gun can be easy but should alway be done when a dog knows what is going on with a GOOD excitement

Back on the dog won't point post it was suggested to intro a gun actually that was not a good time as your dog chasing a bird she hasn't found and her chasing once it was in flight only will confuse and issue

So now that it is done..I can not strongly enough SEEK HELP

That way you can get some hands one which reading all the posts and book in the world can not give you

[snips]

When you saw the first spooked reaction to the blank you should have had a pretty good RED FLAG as to not shoot again. By the 3rd shot you may have done irreputible damage. Not sure how much bird exposure the pup has had, but she needs to not hear any more shots until you spend a long time getting her bird crazy.

[Robjones]

she never spooked with a blank. So I had no idea she would be scared of a gun. I would throw a bumper and shoot and I didnt see any problems. I have found a trainer in Kentucky, I am from illinois so I have a very long drive, I will be going there next week. He said he will get her bird crazy first then worry about the gun.

[kninebirddog]

It will be worth the drive

That is the key there.....blanks and stuff are different then shotguns a big thing people miss is when your in front of a shotgun there is a concussion of air pressure which goes a long with the noise

So having thing in context is important


You will see many dog have no problem with a shot gun but freak out with fireworks Fire works hive a high shrill that blast a loud noise and fills the air so the dog has this noise all around and above them

OR some people think a 22 cal is quiet and introduce a dog to that that is a high shrill also to a dog

Most dogs will not have an issue when introduced in the right manner...

You will ahve a case of natural fear of things..but over all your breeders who have strong stock and intro pps and expose pups to noises and handling..correctly introduced should act like nothing was wrong at all

[Robjones]

I have noticed she is jumpy even without a gun. I noticed in the field that she is timid by nature. She gets scared by things you wouldnt expect. I noticed this jumpiness when going on walks in the field. I cannot think of the specifics but I remember thinking that it was pathetic for her to be that jumpy of over little things. Most cases I had no idea why she would be jumpy.

[kninebirddog]

Even more reason to get her in to the prey drive and boost the confidence level up before loud noises

One need to remember most often when a dog hears a loud noise it is to deter from some behavior

when they get in to the trash what do you do or most everyone does yell at the dog and come running at them yelling NO
If you ahve a dog which starts off submissive nervious or unsure...you really need to work through these bahviors..first off by not coddling them as that really only rewards the behavior...and obviously not reprimanding for it either...just calmly quietly help them to work through these things

For instance if i have a dog that doesn't like an bject I will work on the command lead out in the open and then walk a comfortable distance away back and forth and slowly work my way in closer to the object repaeting that we are just walking i will come closer and when te dog starts to divert attention to the object I am going to cue the dogs attention back to me before the dog can be come affixeiated to the object

Just keepwalking as if everything is normal

If the dog is working and paing attention to you and is looking to you asthe leader then the scarey object shouldn't be scarey as if your not afraid of it there should be no reason the dog should be

so you work closer maybe a foot at a time or may be an inch at a time
depending on the dog and if you make the sessions short start at a comfortable distance and increase closer let the dog sit on a stake out for a bit then repeat again later...the dog will start getting the picture there is nothing to fear

slowly brief good little session will get over some pretty big hurdles then there are some dogs that just through a fluke in breeding or the dam or sire had the same traits and were still bred or lack of socialization in the pups also can be major factors in if a dog will ever really get to be te more bold dog...you can do some but if the wiring is shorted out it will always be a factor in the dog which even worked through one majorwrong thing can cause large set backs

Those are extreme cases but one to have in the back of the mind to try and be prepared as to how to deal with the dog to help get them trough something

[highcotton]

Many puppies are so bold that nothing bothers them and those tend to spoil us into thinking we can throw caution to the wind on them all. You just found out the hard way that is not true.

Taking the dog to a pro is the best decision you have made yet and probably your only chance to save this pup. You also should decide where your priorities lie. You can't make a top notch gun dog out of a pup if your main priority is shooting birds. If you just want to hunt, buy you a broke dog.

[Robjones]

I just want to hunt but I also want a well behaved dog. I also enjoy knowing that I was the only owner of the dog. I like the bond you form from a pup you buy yourself. I believe the guy I am taking him to will do a good job-the question is does the dog have the breeding to get crazy birdy? If it does he will overcome the gun shyness

[kninebirddog]

As long as the pup is bird crazy...You should be fine

and don't forget to pick the pro brains while your there
write down questions to ask him while you have the attention

and the only stupid question is the one you Don't ask

[Robjones]

I will let everyone know how the dog comes out. The trainer I picked was found on this site. If he does a good job I will be his best advertiser! I will let everyone know in about 5 weeks. My dog will leave this saturday and hopefully it will get resolved in a month as I cant hardly pay for more than that and my wife would not be happy either!

[kninebirddog]

If it is who you PM'd me about

Your in Great hands

[Robjones]

It is!

[Don]

I'm really courious about how old this dog is and how much happy timing it had prior to the first blanks being fired?

[Robjones]

Happy timing? It was 8 months old when I shot blanks.

[Don]

Did you take the dog out into cover like you hunt and allow it to just do as it pleased much before that? Thats pretty much "happy timing". Is this the same pup you were concerned about pointing?

I'm just courious now. There are a few dogs that are timid to a fault and you don't shoot much around them.

[Robjones]

i took it for many walks but saw no wild huntable birds. I did place a pheasant i had in many different places in yard landscaping and in the edge of a field next to a stream. She always when let out of the kennel wants to run thru the landscaping to check for the bird. I never associated the gun with birds. She became gun shy the first day and only day I hunted as the bird that got up she didnt see and we shot at but missed the 3 we shot she wasnt around to find. We did put her up when we found out what was going on.
yes this is the same dog that wont point.

[Don]

Be intresting to see what the trainer can do with it. Hope you'll let us know.

[Robjones]

I will let you all know good or bad. The dog has drive but not sure why it wont point-it certainly loves to chase. so their is desire. the trainer believes if their is desire he can fix it. I will let you know on monday after I drop it off my impressions. I will also keep you updated as he gives me weekly emails about how the dog is doing. Unfortuanately my wife has given me a time table so the trainer has only 1 month. If the dog is not finished I will have to do my best to finish myself from what I learn from him.

[Robjones]

Droped my dog off at Jonesy's to have her evaluated. I drove 14 hrs total in the day. I left at 7:15 am and got home at 12:30 am. He spent several hrs with me. His place had all of the necessary equipment to train a dog properly. At this point I am confident he will get the job done. He showed me alot of the things he would be doing with my dog to get her pointing and no longer gun shy. Truthfully I think he will solve the gun shy problem before he gets her pointing. But he believes he can solve both. I will keep everyone updated.

[Robjones]

well guys the dog has been at Jonesy's three days and he is starting to point! He is also still showing no signs of gun shyness as his drive for birds is very strong. The drive for birds was always there but I didnt have birds or proper technique to encourage the point.

[kninebirddog]

With the prey drive the pointing and gunshy training is a hand in hand procedure

by helping him to point that also gets drive up in the anticipation of the flush...once the bird is up the dog is so concetrated on the bird that the gunshot becomes nothing

[mountaindogs]

Glad it's working out. Maybe you can post some pointing pics down the road

[Robjones]

As I stated earlier My dog is now pointing. The dog is now being shot over with a shot gun. All of this has been accomplished in 10 days. He may return the dog to me on Thanksgiving which would mean the dog was gun shy broke in about a week and a half. I have asked for a few pegions and a few quail so I can continue his lessons for the next couple of weeks. I have a pic of my dog pointing but not sure how to get it onto this sight I would like to add it to my profile. I will keep everyone updated as things progress and after I get the dog back. Once I recieve the dog and hunt with her I will be able to give a full evaluation. At this point I would give the trainer an A+. I have to tell you guys that at this point I cannot say one bad thing about this guy. He is extremely nice, keeps me updated, and has bent over backwards to do be helpfull to me. But like I said the dog is coming home early which helps me because I dont have to drive back to tennesse as he will be driving thru past my house over thanskgiving. The bad part is the dog is dropped the dog off on November 10th and as a result leaving early and I dont get a full months worth of training so that is why I have asked for some pegions and quail to put in stone what he has been able to do with this dog. You guys also should know I suggested Thanksgiving because it will cost me another 60- 90 dollars to drive to pick up the dog depending where he would me me at in the middle. He has told me if I am not satisfied with the progress when he brings the dog to me ( we are going to a field and he is bringing a bird) he will take it home and keep working with it. So I dont want anyone to be confused I think this guy is GREAT! If anything would go wrong I will tell you all. And everyone should know I am not easy to please which should tell all of you looking for a trainer- he is good. He told me then showed me when I got there what he would do before he did it-I purposely did not post those things. I did check with other professional trainers on this site what they would do and they said the same thing without knowing what he would do. But I also knew many people who have only trained a few dogs may not agree. There are alot of opinions on this site and not all of them will work with every dog. Some dogs you could do anything with and it would work. You must be able to read a dog! He is good at reading a dog. He also told me that if I am in the field and I am having a problem I can call him right then.

[kninebirddog]

Rob email me the picture kninebirddog@gmail.com I will post it for you then make a size for you to use as an avatar

[kninebirddog]

Here is the pic of robjones pup

Click picture to enlarge



Hope the avatar works for you

[Robjones]

that is the pic the trainer sent to me thursday the 15th. Just 6 days after I droped the dog off. The bird is 4-5 feet away. It is a 100% sent point

[Don]

That's a nice lookig dog! From what you described at the beginning of the post to this in 10 days is impressive! Did he give you an idea of what he thought the problem was?

[gonehuntin']

Jonesy's a good man. You picked the right trainer to send the pup to.

[tailcrackin]

We will add a little to the story on this so you get a full idea of the what and how. This dog is not completely fixed, but has a good foundation to proceed on the fix. Rob and I discussed several different things when we started this dog after the workout. One was the possibility of letting him finish the fix, and be able to hunt with his father, and if anyway possible, we agreed on attempting to get her back at thanksgiving if any way possible. So my foundation, if he follows what I have explained, should be fine for him an her to hunt together.
The point was figured out easily by the dog. Kept it between the dog and the bird, I used live birds and patience.
She has a ton of desire for the bird, so didnt have to rebuild. Shot blank pistol over her the first day, because of her display of desire. Again, used some patience and a carded pigeon. When she went to mouth the bird, I shot, one time. And put her up. Gave her several sessions with the blank gun, and went to the shotgun.
In dog fixing, timing is everything. So right now, she is good to one shot with the shotgun, while on the chase. I honestly dont feel ready for two, better to be safe than sorry. The dog is now pointing decent, I can get to the front, and most of the time get the bird up, sometimes she will wanna help after I go by. That doesnt bother me, she has other baggage to worry about, the length of point is minor, to gun boogers being major. Dog work is one brick at a time, all the other stuff dont mean a thing, if its boogered up with the gun. Thanks Jonesy

[snips]

Good luck there Jonsey. I recently had 2 that did not make it. It takes time of buildin bird desire and timing of when to shoot and when not. Both of mine were problem when they got here, and had good bird desire, but not enough to overcome the sound of even a crimp blank at a distance. That is why we are always harping at newbies asking advice about starting out carefully with pups, it is such a waste of a good birddog to send one home like this.....

[Robjones]

no

[Don]

Rob,
He can only fire one shot around the dog now and doesn't feel she's ready for two. He then said, "better to be safe than sorry". How true! I have no idea what you and he talked about during your visit, but heed it well.

I would add a true story and I hope you don't take it wrong. I had a client bring me a dog to start for him years ago. He couldn't afford the full course so I got the dog green handling and steady to flush. I sent the dog home with a video, remember those, tape showing how to handle the dog and what I'd thought was detailed instructions on where to go. I spent two days with him here working with him in handling his dog.

He got home and took his dog out to show a friend of his and that dog completely washed out. So they went inside and he showed his friend the tape I'd sent with him. The dog started taking direction off the TV set. When I called a whoa on the TV the dog whoa'd.

I'm not sure if things like that happen because client's just don't listen well, don't comprehend well or maybe as trainers, we gloss over some parts we see as self evident. So, a word of caution. Anything at all goes wrong, call Dave. Anything at all your not sure of, stop and call Dave. I think this is Dave Jones isn't it? Do not get on this site or any other and ask what anyone else thinks, at this point, our opinion don't matter. You have and investment in Dave and he has a reputation to defend with the outcome, un-hampered by what anybody on the internet thinks.

I've been told I've been a bit blunt lately, I hope this isn't seem that way, it's not intended if it is. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[Robjones]

You miss intepreted me so I deleted the message so no one else does the same. I continue to post because people wanted to know how things worked out. I am keeping people up on the progress. But I also like to learn from everyone. That is why I continue to ask questions. I think Jonesey is very very good at what he does and yes I want people to know he is good. I would like to continue to learn on this site and eventually help others. Remember learning many ways is important because every dog is different and their are more than one way to skin a cat.

[Robjones]

update-I can now shoot high brass as many shots as I want and she actually gets excited because she now knows shots mean birds. In fact one hunt she got out in front to much and I belive jumped a deer but not sure, so after much looking I fired the gun 3 times and she came running to me from a distance. Also when hunters in other fields shoot I hear my dog wimpering as she is looking for the bird.

[Vom Britt]

Rob,after going through all of the posts, I do not believe your dog was gun shy, gun sensitive for sure and your trainer knew the fix for a birdy dog. How did you work your dog into canned hunts with firing from fields adjacent to yours also being hunted?

Just curious,

Bob

[Robjones]

Buddy My dog was so gun shy that when we would shoot the dog would run as far from us as it could get- it would go hide under the pick up or further so to get away from me. I would call it and the minute I would come into site of the dog it would take off and run even further away from me. The dog did this on three birds. The only reason why my dog was fixed so fast was that I immediately stopped hunting on the first day out when I realized what the problem was! I did not fire around the dog again and I found a trainer to fix the dog.

But my trainer did such a good job of teaching the dog that shot means bird that everytime it heard a shot it would hunt harder and you could hear it wimpering as it wanted a bird.

[Maurice]

Rob I agree your dog was bad gunshy. Jonesy studied the dog and then knew how to get the proper association with the gun and the birds. Your dog looks real nice.


Mo