When you took him/her on his first actual hunt... Meaning shooting birds over him from the flush, all the variables of a normal hunt in place....
My 5 month old brittany is ready to go in my opnion... He's working the cover well. Sound conditioned fully to a 12 guage... Took him out this weekend and shot over him while training his retrieving with a dummy wrapped in pheasant wings. Did really well... I'm planning a preserve hunt for neek weekend...
Just curious if this is consistent with your experiences...
How old was your pup?
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gundogguru
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ezzy333
- GDF Junkie
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There is no time limit for you and your pup. My concern would be taking it with more hunters. I think you need to hunt it by yourself a few times before going with a group of hunters. Very few pups will be bothered if they are on the bird but may be when other people start shooting when the pup isnt in contact with the bird.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
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Birdhunter1
I took my brittany out when he was 3-4 months old, he was more of a tag along than an actual hunting dog but he did find a dead quail. Then the weather got too warm to hunt or work dogs.
I have two others that I was hunting at about 4 months, one would honor and retrieve as well as any.
I think Brittany's are just so much smarter that they catch on to the game quicker. At least that is what I am saying just to raise a rucous on here.
I have two others that I was hunting at about 4 months, one would honor and retrieve as well as any.
I think Brittany's are just so much smarter that they catch on to the game quicker. At least that is what I am saying just to raise a rucous on here.
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birddog
I would think the reason you wait to kill birds over your dogs at such a late age is because you compete with them and do not hunt? For a hunter to hold back on killing birds over their young dogs has no advantage. Killing birds over dogs makes bird dogs and some of the best hunting dogs. You can have a pup ready to do a good job hunting by 6 months if you start early. I just think it all depends on one's priorities.
Janet
Janet
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KC
He's been out every weekend since he was 9 weeks old... Started just exploring obviously, but he's come along so well it's amazing....
The only concern of mine is that he has found very few wild birds of all the times we have been out... We found a covey of quail the first handful of trips in the field, but he was so young at that ime I don't really think he knew what was going on...
It will be interesting now to see how he responds to a flush. That's my only worry... But I think he will love it...
The only concern of mine is that he has found very few wild birds of all the times we have been out... We found a covey of quail the first handful of trips in the field, but he was so young at that ime I don't really think he knew what was going on...
It will be interesting now to see how he responds to a flush. That's my only worry... But I think he will love it...
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Gregory
I been killing birds over my young gsp since he was twelve weeks old and hunted with good success at five months old. I'm assuming we all train with a common goal in mind at bringing the dog along a step at a time to the day we can kill the first bird over his solid point. I can't imagine a good reason for waiting a year to kill the pups first bird, unless the pups been kenneled and never out,or the pup has not shown you he is ready for killing a bird over him . Another word, he hasn't been made steady to where you can walk in to make the flush .I like to hear the philosophy that giudes a trainer to wait a year.Maybe I can learn something.......No pun.
G
G
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dhondtm
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snips
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I don`t have anything against it, I just don`t think it`s that important. I DO hunt my dogs, but I have to drive across the country to do it, so the very young dogs don`t always get the oppurtunity, I wish they did. If I had wild birds handier I`m sure I would kill some for them. When I start steadying dogs I then shoot their first bird when they show me their steadiness. Has not seemed to hurt my dogs, nor training dogs any.
brenda
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Kevin
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snips
- GDF Junkie
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Sorry G, disagree. I like running young dogs on some coveys of birds, if I have young dogs when I make my trek to Tx I throw `em in. I`ll put them on the ground where they can make several coveys in an hour and MAYBE shoot a couple of birds down. I don`t see what it accomplishes, whether birds are shot or not. Rick said he did`nt kill birds for his young dogs in Az. He huted them when they were broke. I like hunting my dogs right after they are steadied, that way young dogs aren`t blowing thru birds uncontrolled, makes my hunt much more enjoyable. I have hunted with people that are chasing a wild young dog around the entire hunt, and the birds are gone far before you get there. I`m getting too old for that....
brenda
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portsider44
Very interesting thread. I was suprised at how soon some folks have started but I was also pleased. My V should be born end of May & will be only 4 months old when Quail season starts in Oct.
My plan is to try & have her out hunting/killing wild birds over her in December after she is 6+ mths old. Of course how she does in training will affect that. I also like the fact that by December Mr. Sneaky Snake should be laid up taking his winter nap.
My plan is to try & have her out hunting/killing wild birds over her in December after she is 6+ mths old. Of course how she does in training will affect that. I also like the fact that by December Mr. Sneaky Snake should be laid up taking his winter nap.
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birddog
Snips, I couldn't dissagree more. It is the combination of finding, pointing and killing birds that make bird dogs. It's the actual kill that motivates the bird dog. There is a procedure I take that might not be fitting to some but I start them, at 8 weeks in grassey fields for some play time. Start them at 8 weeks retrieving in a hallway. Introduce them to birds on or before 3 months. At 3 months, little walks in the field. By 4 or 4 1/2 months putting pigeons out to start there search and use of nose. From 4 1/2 months to 5 months start using launcher and by 6 months you have a pup who will stand their birds for you to walk around for the flush. It is at this time I introduce the gun.
Gregory's post states, which I believe is right on, the pup is then ready for the wild bird hunt to the point of finding, pointing and retrieving the killed bird. If you plan to compete with your dog, all that remains is to train at an older age for steady to wing and shot. To steady at such a young age, I feel, is putting to much stress on a young dog.
By starting them early and not putting any pressure on the pup because at this age you can make the pup think he is having fun without reaslizing they are being trained, you are not only training at the best time for their brain to absorb, you are focusing them in a positive direction and by doing this you are avoiding the bad habits that will need correcting latter.
Again Snips, you seem to be more focused on the competition dog. I and Gregory are totally focused on the dog used for hunting. I think the poster also is looking for a hunting companion. At any rate, to not kill untill they are broke, to me, is wrong advice for what the novice trainer is asking. Most hunters do not break their dogs. They would rather they go with the bird to have the advantage over a wounded, running bird.
Janet
Gregory's post states, which I believe is right on, the pup is then ready for the wild bird hunt to the point of finding, pointing and retrieving the killed bird. If you plan to compete with your dog, all that remains is to train at an older age for steady to wing and shot. To steady at such a young age, I feel, is putting to much stress on a young dog.
By starting them early and not putting any pressure on the pup because at this age you can make the pup think he is having fun without reaslizing they are being trained, you are not only training at the best time for their brain to absorb, you are focusing them in a positive direction and by doing this you are avoiding the bad habits that will need correcting latter.
Again Snips, you seem to be more focused on the competition dog. I and Gregory are totally focused on the dog used for hunting. I think the poster also is looking for a hunting companion. At any rate, to not kill untill they are broke, to me, is wrong advice for what the novice trainer is asking. Most hunters do not break their dogs. They would rather they go with the bird to have the advantage over a wounded, running bird.
Janet
Last edited by birddog on Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KC
Very interesting thread......
All good advice, I guess it just depends on what type of situation you are in as to the best method...
My situation is basically to the point that it is time for a conservation type hunt.. So at least I can get Jake out on birds... I guess its going to be just as much a training session as a hunt...
I know he can cover ground, I know he has a good nose, and I know that he can retrieve and I know he is sound conditioned. This at his current age of 5 months to the day, today.... I can't find anyone around here that will sell me some pigeons, I tried to even catch some under a bridge once without any luck. I don't feel like raising them either...
He needs to get on birds and I hope this is a logical step to take him on a preserve hunt, with my ability to place the birds, and go forward with the training as we "hunt" them... We will see how well he will hold a point on em.... I am pretty confident he will get the "idea" very quickly based on the training he has had up to this point.
All good advice, I guess it just depends on what type of situation you are in as to the best method...
My situation is basically to the point that it is time for a conservation type hunt.. So at least I can get Jake out on birds... I guess its going to be just as much a training session as a hunt...
I know he can cover ground, I know he has a good nose, and I know that he can retrieve and I know he is sound conditioned. This at his current age of 5 months to the day, today.... I can't find anyone around here that will sell me some pigeons, I tried to even catch some under a bridge once without any luck. I don't feel like raising them either...
He needs to get on birds and I hope this is a logical step to take him on a preserve hunt, with my ability to place the birds, and go forward with the training as we "hunt" them... We will see how well he will hold a point on em.... I am pretty confident he will get the "idea" very quickly based on the training he has had up to this point.
Last edited by KC on Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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doublea
Janet,
Your post seems to imply that a competition dog does not or maybe cannot also hunt. I can show you different and so can the owners of some of the pups you have sold over the years! As such, why does it seem that you are suggesting that we train one different than the other when the end result is the same for both? As to your comments about the bird launcher and the dog standing for the flush at 6 months. This might be true in a controlled situation but I dare say it is not true in the wild. There must be something like the expected range of the dog you left out of your post. I say this because in my experience and only armed with the seemingly limited amount of training you suggest, a pup that hunts at a distance greater than gun range might stand the first couple of wild Roosters exploding off the ground in front of him but after that a smart birdy pup that loves birds knows we ain’t playing with pigeons anymore and his excitement level goes up accordingly and in the end all the hard work and time you put into that pup just came undone! For this reason I agree with Brenda…get the dog fully trained and right first then hunt and correct what needs to be if it needs to be.
Your post seems to imply that a competition dog does not or maybe cannot also hunt. I can show you different and so can the owners of some of the pups you have sold over the years! As such, why does it seem that you are suggesting that we train one different than the other when the end result is the same for both? As to your comments about the bird launcher and the dog standing for the flush at 6 months. This might be true in a controlled situation but I dare say it is not true in the wild. There must be something like the expected range of the dog you left out of your post. I say this because in my experience and only armed with the seemingly limited amount of training you suggest, a pup that hunts at a distance greater than gun range might stand the first couple of wild Roosters exploding off the ground in front of him but after that a smart birdy pup that loves birds knows we ain’t playing with pigeons anymore and his excitement level goes up accordingly and in the end all the hard work and time you put into that pup just came undone! For this reason I agree with Brenda…get the dog fully trained and right first then hunt and correct what needs to be if it needs to be.
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doublea
Greg,Gregory wrote:
Snips. It does not surprise me a bit that you would disagree, as most conventional thinkers often times do.
What is surprising to me at least is that you and Rick do not place value in to the dogs ultimate reward.getting the bird in his mouth. So, if I were to bring you a pup for training I should not be expecting you to kill any birds over him? till he was a year old ,or older?
G.
Why would you consider the "Ultimate reward" for the dog to be getting the bird in his mouth? That my friend is conventional thinking if ever there was such a thing! It took me many years to finally figure out that I get more value out of letting the "Point" be the ultimate reward! In today's world most of the dogs I see that come in for training love birds and love to point! So much in fact that every muscle in their bodies quiver and their eyes almost jump out of their heads. Further, I have always been of the mind that we can teach a dog to retrieve, we can’t teach them to point! So IMHO by using the "point" as your reward you encourage staunchness which in turn makes training easier. To use the "retrieve" as the reward IMO runs contrary to the this idea.... why do suppose those big time field trial Pointer guys don't let their dogs retrieve? They don’t want the dog thinking bout getting a bird in his mouth and breaking point to chase, right!? Oh I know what your going to say so I will answer you like this Greg: If your dog aint staunch on point you won't get many shots and without staunch points leading to downed birds the dog will have nothing to retrieve anyway so your idea of a reward has just gone by the wayside and is dependant on more important things. Even if you do have good staunch points the only way your dog is going to get that bird in his mouth is if you hit your target...sometime you do and sometimes you don't. Which in the end means it all starts with a good productive staunch "Point".... so why not let that act of “scent pointing” be your reward. After all every time the dog finds a bird he gets his reward and that reward is no longer dependant on your wing shooting ability or the gender of the bird!
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birddog
Never said competition dogs don't or can't hunt. I also said my way might not be the right way for some. The question was when to kill over the dog. My answer: to wait until a dog is broke is wasting valuble time. The question was, not training one different from the other, the question was when to start.
Is it true in the wild? Any dog under some conditions will make a mistake. Even dogs in competition make mistakes. That is why so few hold the title Champion. Where do you think we take our dogs after the training I explained above? Yep, wild bird hunting.
No young dog will go into the wild bird field and not make a mistake, No broke dog will go into competition and not make a mistake, and no competition dog will go into the wild bird field and not make a mistake. So what's your argument? If it is to wait until they are broke to kill birds, then do that. And I might add, I feel your tone is argumentive and you seem to be on the attach! I see no reason to bring up how others train my dogs. . Any reader, any novice trainer, or any Pro, has that choice.
Distance: Nothing to do with the topic at hand so for sake of argument I will let the e-collar answer that.
Janet
Is it true in the wild? Any dog under some conditions will make a mistake. Even dogs in competition make mistakes. That is why so few hold the title Champion. Where do you think we take our dogs after the training I explained above? Yep, wild bird hunting.
No young dog will go into the wild bird field and not make a mistake, No broke dog will go into competition and not make a mistake, and no competition dog will go into the wild bird field and not make a mistake. So what's your argument? If it is to wait until they are broke to kill birds, then do that. And I might add, I feel your tone is argumentive and you seem to be on the attach! I see no reason to bring up how others train my dogs. . Any reader, any novice trainer, or any Pro, has that choice.
Distance: Nothing to do with the topic at hand so for sake of argument I will let the e-collar answer that.
Janet
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grant
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Good stuff guys and gals, but its starting to go the wrong way. I don't want to go on a deleting rampage, because its an interesting argument. However, to keep this post on topic, lets leave the speculation of each others training methods to PM's or email. KC, asked a question and got different view points, which is a good thing....
I've heard and seen great things from (trainers and dogs) on both sides of this rewards debate. I'm sure if KC decides on one that fits himself and the dog, they'll do great...
I've heard and seen great things from (trainers and dogs) on both sides of this rewards debate. I'm sure if KC decides on one that fits himself and the dog, they'll do great...
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NDBDHunter
I believe it all depends on the puppy. Softer dogs take more time to build that confidence in the field. I have Gordons and my current pup just turned a year and hasn't pointed yet, but has had almost 100 bird contacts. Because she hasn't pointed yet I haven't shot a bird over her. She so soft I'm hoping she eventually breaks herself, and I'll work with extending the points with the whoa command I'm no pro so if I'm off base and anyone has a better Idea let me know.
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NDBDHunter
I can also add that when the pup was 4 or 5 months old I killed a bird or two that the dog flushed to build that prey drive. Now that the drive is there, boy is it ever, I will only kill a bird over my dog that was pointed, whether I flush it or the bird flushes on it's own but not flushed by the dog. IMHO
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Gregory
NDBDHunter wrote:I believe it all depends on the puppy. Softer dogs take more time to build that confidence in the field. I have Gordons and my current pup just turned a year and hasn't pointed yet, but has had almost 100 bird contacts. Because she hasn't pointed yet I haven't shot a bird over her. She so soft I'm hoping she eventually breaks herself, and I'll work with extending the points with the whoa command I'm no pro so if I'm off base and anyone has a better Idea let me know.
Yes, I think you are on the right track for not having killed any birds for her yet.
And I do not think you should kill for her what she does not point. Cause if you did, you will be rewarding the unwanted behavior. Of Not pointing.... You do understand the reason why she has not pointed yet is because she thinks she can get the bird in her mouth by doing it her way, don't you.All that she does and all that she has done up to this point,is to get the bird in her mouth . She might change her technique in time, by first flash pointing, then by holding her point longer. With a dog such as yours,I would do all that I could to show her another way that will lead to her success.
Seems to me she has a lot more prey drive than pointing insticts.
G
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NDBDHunter
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Gregory
I don't think Whoa has anything whatso ever to do with birds to a bird dog. I do think you should show this dog a better method at getting the bird in her mouth, from what she is getting used to. Yes you should be working her with a checkord on planted birds,such as pigeons. You should also stop her when she first makes bird. I would also get Bill Tarrants book. The best Way to Train your Gun Dog, the Delamr Smith method. and fallow it to the Tee, if you want to save her...
Please understand, that there are those dogs that come to us as flushers even though their pedigree says they are pointers. Those dogs can be helped,but you have to detect that early on and not allow them to practice what they love doing best, chaising birds....
She'll point if you showed her a system to follow..
If you want more advise either PM me or start another post or we stand the chance of catching heck from Grant for High jacking this thread.
G.
Please understand, that there are those dogs that come to us as flushers even though their pedigree says they are pointers. Those dogs can be helped,but you have to detect that early on and not allow them to practice what they love doing best, chaising birds....
She'll point if you showed her a system to follow..
If you want more advise either PM me or start another post or we stand the chance of catching heck from Grant for High jacking this thread.
G.
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KC
I've set up a hunt this weekend (hope it's not too warm), I'll let everyone know how it went...
The preserve owner is going to help me plant the birds and give me some advice.... I can't wait...
The only downside is that we will be hunting chukar, not quail (he's out of everything else)... But it's better than nothing... Hope they don't run too much...
I'll try to get some photos also....
The preserve owner is going to help me plant the birds and give me some advice.... I can't wait...
The only downside is that we will be hunting chukar, not quail (he's out of everything else)... But it's better than nothing... Hope they don't run too much...
I'll try to get some photos also....
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Greg Jennings
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Chukar are good. They are spooky and strong flyers. You run a much lower risk of your dog catching them than pen-raised quail.
If I had the option, I'd use chukars extensively.
Best regards,
If I had the option, I'd use chukars extensively.
Best regards,
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
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doublea
<< edited: off topic per grant. >>
In closing you're right the question was about when to kill birds for a young pup. My answer is simply when he's ready both mentally and physically. Oh sure we could argue that it can be done a 12 weeks or 8 weeks and you would probably be right, it could be. But why would you want too?
In closing you're right the question was about when to kill birds for a young pup. My answer is simply when he's ready both mentally and physically. Oh sure we could argue that it can be done a 12 weeks or 8 weeks and you would probably be right, it could be. But why would you want too?
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doublea
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gundogguru
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portsider44
Why would you consider the "Ultimate reward" for the dog to be getting the bird in his mouth? That my friend is conventional thinking if ever there was such a thing! It took me many years to finally figure out that
I get more value out of letting the "Point" be the ultimate reward! In today's world most of the dogs I see that come in for training love birds and love to point! So much in fact that every muscle in their bodies quiver and their eyes almost jump out of their heads. Further, I have always been of the mind that we can teach a dog to retrieve, we can’t teach them to point! !
I am sorry to se that this thread has gone off track & need a little spell check/pc by Grant. But what W said really hit home with me. My last gun dog (over 10 years ago) was a Choc Lab. My training with him was all about the retrieve which was his #1 job in the hunting filed (of course OB was very important around the house). Now I am looking for a quail/pheasant dog which means the point is more improtant over the retrieve.
So it seems the point would be more of a cause for joy then bringing of the bird to hand. Of course this doesn't help the thread any. If you got a dog that points, why not kill what he/she points???? SInce a lot of dogs point at very early ages. Sure they may not be steady to shot, but do they need to be in order to be a good hunting dog??
If Field Trails, Hunt tests, NAVDA, or NSTRA didn't exist would we still have this dispute? Or would we settle it like our grandfather/great grandfather did, the one with the most birds in the skillet wins.
PS
Thanks for all of thse that responed, as a rookie I like to hear both sides.
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doublea
portsider44
In simplest terms...there are many times in which we cannot shoot what the dog points. For instance in most states that I am aware of you cannot legally shoot wild Hen Pheasants. Also there are times due to safety concerns when you simply cannot shoot. Because of this if we rely upon the retrieve to be the reward, well you see where I am going. There for the only true and consistent reward for a pointing dog is to be found in the power of bird scent and the act of pointing that scent. IMHO it is that act of scent pointing that we need to focus on and encourage. We can take care of the retrieve later. Like you said we are not dealing with Labs or Goldens...these are Pointing dogs first and foremost!
Which brings us right back to the original question of when to shoot and kill birds for a young dog now don’t it? Whats more it changes your time frame for the shooting and killing of those birds. What I mean is if the "Point" is your reward like I think it should be. Then what's the hurry in killing a bird for a young dog that we are still trying to encourage to be steady on "Point"?
In simplest terms...there are many times in which we cannot shoot what the dog points. For instance in most states that I am aware of you cannot legally shoot wild Hen Pheasants. Also there are times due to safety concerns when you simply cannot shoot. Because of this if we rely upon the retrieve to be the reward, well you see where I am going. There for the only true and consistent reward for a pointing dog is to be found in the power of bird scent and the act of pointing that scent. IMHO it is that act of scent pointing that we need to focus on and encourage. We can take care of the retrieve later. Like you said we are not dealing with Labs or Goldens...these are Pointing dogs first and foremost!
Which brings us right back to the original question of when to shoot and kill birds for a young dog now don’t it? Whats more it changes your time frame for the shooting and killing of those birds. What I mean is if the "Point" is your reward like I think it should be. Then what's the hurry in killing a bird for a young dog that we are still trying to encourage to be steady on "Point"?
Last edited by doublea on Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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portsider44
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grant
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HA! Ahem..... Now, now Alan. As much as I hate moderating posts, it needs to be done. Its anoying when posts get off topic and turn into a mud fight. Maybe Janet would be nice enough to PM you with her problem?doublea wrote:Grant what gives...you keep deleting Janets posts before I can respond to 'em!! This is good stuff man!!
Some of the trainers on GDF have great information but its a shame that "they" seem to get booted off every forum they go to. Rules are set in place to keep this forum from turning into crap. BTW, I get more positive feedback for editing posts than I get from the select few who chastise me for moderating. Besides, most people that feel secure in their method don't have to shove it down somebody’s throat in the first place. They seem to have a take it or leave it attitude.
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snips
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Well, many hours ago I had a long post written, then someone came, and work prevailed. Now I`m back and my post went away. It started with "for once Alan and I agree on something." What makes this a great country is the freedom of disagreeing with one another. I guess I stirred it up by stating that I don`t see it as being important to kill birds over puppies. I guess I have had great luck in making many dogs without it, mine and other peoples. Enough said....
brenda
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birddog
Well now, I hope every one feels better!
portsider44, to answer your question I would have to say no. If we only had hunting dogs this would not be a discussion at all and of course the reason we are out there is to bring home birds. The topic was how early should we kill over our dogs. The earlier you start his training the sooner you can take him hunting. Once a dog stands its birds and allow's you to walk in to flush, the dog is ready for the kill. This however is not considered a broke dog as some would imply.
Janet
portsider44, to answer your question I would have to say no. If we only had hunting dogs this would not be a discussion at all and of course the reason we are out there is to bring home birds. The topic was how early should we kill over our dogs. The earlier you start his training the sooner you can take him hunting. Once a dog stands its birds and allow's you to walk in to flush, the dog is ready for the kill. This however is not considered a broke dog as some would imply.
Janet
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snips
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portsider, first off, thanks for the P.M. Second, there is nothing "wrong" with shooting birds for your young dog next season, of course with proper gun conditioning. I think the thought that the dogs reward is delivering you the bird. Handing you the bird is not their reward, it`s simply getting their mouth on it, and obviously it`s better for some dogs than others. Some don`t care anything about putting a uckky bird in their mouth. Thats why so many dogs are FF`ed. But I DO, to an extent believe it is something of a reward to shoot a bid for a do, thats why I do it when they show me their steadyness. Just because "I" don`t shoot birds over my pups does not mean it`s wrong, just that I don`t think you HAVE to do it to make a good dog. And Greg, if you sent a pup here for their puppy training, they WOULD NOT get a bird shot over them, unless you speifically requested it. You WOULD get a dog back that could be safely hunted. They would be coming when called, holding their point (99% of pups), standing there til I flush or get in flushing range, hunting the right areas, and gun conditioned. They would be a good JH level. You do not have to kill birds to get them to this place.
brenda
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thorson
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APRock
I'll start out telling my experience with my SMP. Got him in early September of '03 at 8 weeks old. Started out introducing him to the gun and noise. Banging the pans at feeding time, loud hand clapping when he responded to "Come", 22s with him 20 yards behind. By mid Oct we were shooting clay pigeons over him. Didn't phase him a bit. (now if he hears a shot he wants to go get something!)
Took him out probably 5 times that season to expose him to wild birds (ducks and upland), wild bunnies, squirrels, snow, cold, wind, varying terrain, long rides in the Jeep, and all that "uncontrollable" stuff.
I took him out that first year with no real expectations of performance. It was exposure and an opportunity for me to see how he responded to all the variables involved in being in different environments so I could adjust my training agenda. He did quite well.
That said, I have to disagree with those that have said that the "point" should be the reward. The point is part of the performance that gets them reward of that game in their mouths, and brigning it to us. Dogs are predators plain and simple. WE have modified their behaviour to show US where the game is (pointing or flushing), and to go get it and bring it to us - instead of them finding it, killing it and eating it then barfing half of it up when they get back to the pack. What we have done is modify the natural behaviour of a predator to hesitate just before they pounce when it finds prey (pointing) so that they hold that until we say different. Then, if we are Ok with our shots, they go get it and bring it to us instead of eating it. Then they get praised - THAT is their reward.
Took him out probably 5 times that season to expose him to wild birds (ducks and upland), wild bunnies, squirrels, snow, cold, wind, varying terrain, long rides in the Jeep, and all that "uncontrollable" stuff.
I took him out that first year with no real expectations of performance. It was exposure and an opportunity for me to see how he responded to all the variables involved in being in different environments so I could adjust my training agenda. He did quite well.
That said, I have to disagree with those that have said that the "point" should be the reward. The point is part of the performance that gets them reward of that game in their mouths, and brigning it to us. Dogs are predators plain and simple. WE have modified their behaviour to show US where the game is (pointing or flushing), and to go get it and bring it to us - instead of them finding it, killing it and eating it then barfing half of it up when they get back to the pack. What we have done is modify the natural behaviour of a predator to hesitate just before they pounce when it finds prey (pointing) so that they hold that until we say different. Then, if we are Ok with our shots, they go get it and bring it to us instead of eating it. Then they get praised - THAT is their reward.
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Gregory
doublea wrote:<< edited: off topic per grant. >>
In closing you're right the question was about when to kill birds for a young pup. My answer is simply when he's ready both mentally and physically. Oh sure we could argue that it can be done a 12 weeks or 8 weeks and you would probably be right, it could be. But why would you want too?
That's right Alan. The question was when to kill birds for a young pup..
And the answer is when the pup is mentally ready.
I dod not think any one said you should shoot a bird over an 8 week old pup. An 8 week old pup can barely nagotiate ankle high cover, let alone be physically strong enough to give chaise .The poor little guy is still falling overhimself at that young age.
But, on the other hand, a month later that same pup is going to be tugging on the check cord wanting to burn the field up and by that time he should have been chasing anything on wing,providing the breeder did his job........That 3 month old pup, can be introduced to the cap pistol under the ideal cercumstances and provididng the sound of the cap gun while in chase had no adverse affect on him. Then why not use the gun to kill the bird for the pup to conect pleasure with the sound of the gun,which in turn leads to excitment and boldness. Which will make the pup search the field with vigor...Why would you want to you say? I want to for all the reasons above.Why would you not want that out of your pup,Alan.
Does that mean you will be killing every bird the pup comes in to contect with from there on out.Nope. It does not because the pup is not going to hit every bird in perfect form,I know that going in as well as I know there is a Gods Green Earth. But i will kill every bird for him in due time and I will kill for him when he is still hauling the CC around. And the reason Alan I will do that for him goes back to what I said earlier.I want him to learn what my job is in the field and why I'm tagging along........ I'm training my next partner and good partners know what each others job is.That's what I do . And if you can't phantom what I'm saying, then please agree to disagree.
G.
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Gregory
snips wrote:portsider, first off, thanks for the P.M. Second, there is nothing "wrong" with shooting birds for your young dog next season, of course with proper gun conditioning. I think the thought that the dogs reward is delivering you the bird. Handing you the bird is not their reward, it`s simply getting their mouth on it, and obviously it`s better for some dogs than others. Some don`t care anything about putting a uckky bird in their mouth. Thats why so many dogs are FF`ed. But I DO, to an extent believe it is something of a reward to shoot a bid for a do, thats why I do it when they show me their steadyness. Just because "I" don`t shoot birds over my pups does not mean it`s wrong, just that I don`t think you HAVE to do it to make a good dog. And Greg, if you sent a pup here for their puppy training, they WOULD NOT get a bird shot over them, unless you speifically requested it. You WOULD get a dog back that could be safely hunted. They would be coming when called, holding their point (99% of pups), standing there til I flush or get in flushing range, hunting the right areas, and gun conditioned. They would be a good JH level. You do not have to kill birds to get them to this place.
Snips
Thank's for answering my question and while I don't agree with it.I can at least agree to disagree.
G
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doublea
Gregory,
There are other ways to teach the dog what your purpose is in the field, i.e., carry a water bottle and teach the dog to depend on you for a fresh drink of cool water. Learn to think like the dog, understand game birds and anticipate each other’s moves. That last one goes right back to what I told you when you up here hunting...dogs don't get lost handlers do.
As to the idea of the retrieve being the reward. Yes some do it and there ain't anything wrong with it especially if it makes you feel good. However from my perspective, by using the first thing that happens in each encounter with a bird prior to our being able to shoot as our reward. We ensure the dog his due reward or else he gets his correction for failing to handle the situation correctly, there-by drawing a very clear picture between right and wrong for the dog. Further the accurate staunch point leads to safe accurate shots. Which in turn lead to cleanly killed birds. Which when on dry land means I can go over and pick the dead bird up for myself and leave my dog standing staunchly on point until told to move on. Now let me ask...if I go and pick up my shot birds rather than let my dog retrieve them, will have less of a bird dog, will my dog have less boldness and desire to find and point game? I think not! The true value of a retrieve only comes into play if we are no longer shooting over dry land or capable of making clean accurate shots that properly kill the bird. Now if we should miss the bird entirely and often times we do, then the dog is left without a well deserved reward for that piece of work and that denial of a reward is no fault of the dogs now is it? With that said, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on the importance of point vs. retrieve as means of a reward.
There are other ways to teach the dog what your purpose is in the field, i.e., carry a water bottle and teach the dog to depend on you for a fresh drink of cool water. Learn to think like the dog, understand game birds and anticipate each other’s moves. That last one goes right back to what I told you when you up here hunting...dogs don't get lost handlers do.
As to the idea of the retrieve being the reward. Yes some do it and there ain't anything wrong with it especially if it makes you feel good. However from my perspective, by using the first thing that happens in each encounter with a bird prior to our being able to shoot as our reward. We ensure the dog his due reward or else he gets his correction for failing to handle the situation correctly, there-by drawing a very clear picture between right and wrong for the dog. Further the accurate staunch point leads to safe accurate shots. Which in turn lead to cleanly killed birds. Which when on dry land means I can go over and pick the dead bird up for myself and leave my dog standing staunchly on point until told to move on. Now let me ask...if I go and pick up my shot birds rather than let my dog retrieve them, will have less of a bird dog, will my dog have less boldness and desire to find and point game? I think not! The true value of a retrieve only comes into play if we are no longer shooting over dry land or capable of making clean accurate shots that properly kill the bird. Now if we should miss the bird entirely and often times we do, then the dog is left without a well deserved reward for that piece of work and that denial of a reward is no fault of the dogs now is it? With that said, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on the importance of point vs. retrieve as means of a reward.
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Gregory
doublea wrote:Gregory,
There are other ways to teach the dog what your purpose is in the field, i.e., carry a water bottle and teach the dog to depend on you for a fresh drink of cool water. Learn to think like the dog, understand game birds and anticipate each other’s moves. That last one goes right back to what I told you when you up here hunting...dogs don't get lost handlers do.
As to the idea of the retrieve being the reward. Yes some do it and there ain't anything wrong with it especially if it makes you feel good. However from my perspective, by using the first thing that happens in each encounter with a bird prior to our being able to shoot as our reward. We ensure the dog his due reward or else he gets his correction for failing to handle the situation correctly, there-by drawing a very clear picture between right and wrong for the dog. Further the accurate staunch point leads to safe accurate shots. Which in turn lead to cleanly killed birds. Which when on dry land means I can go over and pick the dead bird up for myself and leave my dog standing staunchly on point until told to move on. Now let me ask...if I go and pick up my shot birds rather than let my dog retrieve them, will have less of a bird dog, will my dog have less boldness and desire to find and point game? I think not! The true value of a retrieve only comes into play if we are no longer shooting over dry land or capable of making clean accurate shots that properly kill the bird. Now if we should miss the bird entirely and often times we do, then the dog is left without a well deserved reward for that piece of work and that denial of a reward is no fault of the dogs now is it? With that said, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on the importance of point vs. retrieve as means of a reward.
What are you talking about Alan.
I'm at a loss as to what to repond too. Are you saying i should give a dog a cool dring of water instead of shooting a bird for him to retrieve? That to me makes no sense at all, but if you are saying you give cool drinks of water to your dog istead of shooting a bird for him to complete the circle.It's okay by me BuB ,I aint doing it.... Sorry buddy, if I don't respond further on your above post. It's not that I don't want to.it's just that it sound like it's too noncoherent to even beging to unravel it to respond. I don't know what you are saying but what ever it is,we'll just have to agree to disagree......
Thanks for making the effort,though..
Later.
Last edited by Gregory on Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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snips
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I like to think in terms of training bird dogs to kids. If your kid does a good deed, is he always rewarded with candy? or money? Sometimes a "good boy" is enough. I think dogs can get soured by NEVER getting a bird shot, but they, by far don`t need every bird shot that they handle correctly. I think the end result is THE SAME with kids and dogs. If they get every bird shot they SOON grow to always expect that reward, just as a child would think he should get "something" for doing something. Dogs, just as kids learn to appreciate a well deserved reward.
brenda
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Gregory
snips wrote:I like to think in terms of training bird dogs to kids. If your kid does a good deed, is he always rewarded with candy? or money? Sometimes a "good boy" is enough. I think dogs can get soured by NEVER getting a bird shot, but they, by far don`t need every bird shot that they handle correctly. I think the end result is THE SAME with kids and dogs. If they get every bird shot they SOON grow to always expect that reward, just as a child would think he should get "something" for doing something. Dogs, just as kids learn to appreciate a well deserved reward.
I agree with the part about not expecting a reward like the way some folks reward their kids. I don't praise my dogs for a job well done durring training verbally. I do praise them but a pat or a stroke along their side and even then I keep it to a minumum so I don't break their frame of mind I put them in just before the training session....
When I say every bird they handle well ,will depend on where the dogs training is or what I am working on. If I'm working a dog on Steady wind shot and fall, yes I do want to kill every birds till I establish the rutine I want the dog to know. But that is so far a way from the original question that it deserves a totally new thread.....
G.