Can you teach a dog to point?

[RaiderArch]

I'll preface my whole post by saying that I'm not a hunter (yet) and this is my first post. I'm hoping some people here will have some helpful wisdom for me.

I have a weimaraner (Dirk) who is 16 months old. As I said earlier, I've never really hunted and neither has Dirk. Since we've had him (since he was 8 weeks), he's only been a pet, but now I'd like to start hunting with him. He's got some desire, but he doesn't (as far as I can tell) have any instinct to point. So all of that to ask the question: Can you teach a dog to point if he doesn't already demonstrate the instinct?

Here's what he can do so far and what we've worked on. Looking for some pointers on what to do next, or what to do differently:

- (Besides an assortment of 'tricks' around the house) He can heel
- One of the things I taught him a while back was to 'Wait' where I throw a treat at his feet and make him wait until I give the command to take it.
- He knows 'Stay' and will do it even at the park where I can walk a good distance away from him before calling him to me.
- I think the ability to 'Stay' and 'Wait' have given me a head start for training him to 'Whoa', which we're currently working on.
- I hide his pheasant scented dummy from him at the park and let him search it out (which he loves). I just can't get him to stop before he grabs it. How do I teach him to stop or point, once he scents his target?

(I realize that by getting such a late start with him, I didn't exactly do myself any favors, but I'm not too concerned. He's very intelligent and I'm prepared to make a long, patient attempt at this. Even if he never becomes a great gun dog, the mental stimulation will at least help settle him down. Sorry for the length of this post, I've got a lot of questions.)

[ezzy333]

Possibly but it isn't worth the trouble. But what you can do is give the dog the oportunity to teach it's self. Your dog will not point a dummy with scent froma bottle on it as what the dogs nose tell him is it is a dummy with scent poured on it. He knows as well as you that it isn't a bird. Get him out in a field where there are native birds or if not put some pigeons or pen raised birds out so he can find them. It may not happen the first or second time out there but if he has it and he probably does it will happen at some point. Main thing is be patient and give him a chance to show you what he has.

Ezzy

[bwjohn]

he doesn't point it b/c he knows that he is going to catch it. It, being the pheasant dummy.

I am willing to bet if it were a real bird that you would see some more pointing instinct, especially if he did not catch the birds a time or two in a row. Try to find a situation in which you can practice this scenario, live birds and he smells them but can not catch them. Then decide on whether or not your dog has no pointing instinct.

brandon

[gonehuntin']

Possibly but it isn't worth the trouble.
Ezzy

+1 Here. Thing is, you don't know that he does not have pointing instinct. When he sees birds in the back yard or in the park, he should at least flash point them. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't have much instinct. It is difficult to get a good Weim if you don't get it from a reliable hunting kennel. Lot of garbage out there.

[RaiderArch]

Thanks for the tips. Sounds introducing him to live birds are the next step and I'll find out what he can do. That and now I need to get my wife accustomed to the idea of me getting a gun. Not sure which will be tougher.

[Neil]

Yes.

But the hard part is getting the dog to truly hunt and find wild birds.

Neil

[Winchey]

Just get him out there where you are likely to find wild game birds, let him roll and keep your mouth shut. You may be suprised or he may be a washout, doesen't hurt to try and you gotta walk him anyways, just walk him where the birds are.

[GUNDOGS]

Thanks for the tips. Sounds introducing him to live birds are the next step and I'll find out what he can do. That and now I need to get my wife accustomed to the idea of me getting a gun. Not sure which will be tougher.

Hi RaiderArch, welcome to the forum ..this is a great place to talk to others with the same interests..the main reason i am commenting is because of the part of your post that says you need to get your wife accustomed to the idea of you getting a gun..not sure how much interest she has in hunting and dogs but one way to get her on board is maybe go to an event such as a hunt test or a game farm(without your dog)so the two of you can have time together and she can see responsible people with guns AND you get to see how they work the dogs and get ideas for DIRK..get some books ect like pointing dog journal, gundogs or some dvd's to show her and it may peek her interest..the reason i am suggesting this is because before i met my husband i knew nothing of hunting/dogs and certainly not guns..not knowing about guns makes you fear and not want to be around them...my husband took me target shooting and to take a firearms saftey course so i didnt fear them..then took me out with his shorthair(he already owned) and gave me a camera and asked me to take pics of him and of the dog..from that day on i was HOOKED..i eat, breathe and sleep going with him to every seminar, game farm, and on every hunt so i dont miss anything..im actually a better shot then he is at targets and clays but we wont talk about that one its a touchy subject !!..hope it all works out for you with the dog(and the gun)..keep us updated ....ruth

[snips]

Most of the dogs I get in to train that I have problems with them pointing, it is man-made...Bottom line, like everyone said is get him on great flying birds and see how he handles it then come talk to us...It will either bring out his natural point or he is too programed to grab.

[fourtrax]

NO. Pointing is an instinct. Dogs are born with instincts. This cannot be taught. Some dogs have more & different instincts than others.

As a trainer you need to present pup with opportunities for him / her to *discover, use, develop, practice etc what instincts are in the package.
It is your (or the trainers) job to give pup the chance to develop & realize thier potential.
That said, some dogs just do not have the gift.
Some dogs are much slower to develop that others. I almost sent my first pointing pup back as a wash out. This is now my best dog.
It would have been my failure as a trainer to send him back too soon.

[4dabirds]

Lots of great advice here, I would also add that pointing instinct comes from a desire for birds. You certainly can work on this with your dog at home in the yard with a few pigeons. You say your dog has some desire but without seeing the dog it is hard to judge how much . I would err on the side of caution and start with a locked wing pigeon. You can learn how to lock the birds wings on George Hickox d.v.d. or maybe find a demonstration on line. Introduction to birds this way ensures that the dog is not startled by the first bird it catches. Put the bird on the ground and let the dog investigate it on his own terms. Once you have the dog playing with the bird you can switch to a clipped wing bird. In this scenario you set up an area that is narrow I use a section of snow fence to create a 8 x20 area. I use rubber bands on the birds wings up to what would appear to be the elbow joint . This allows the bird to fly a short distance but it cant get to far off the ground. Throw the bird into the enclosure and let the dog chase and catch it. This becomes a fun game for the dog and builds desire. After this you can plant birds in a field and let the dog find them on his own. Once you get the dog actively seeking out birds and chasing them then it would be a time to get into a serious training program .Too much of this will be counter to getting the dog to point but without it the dog may not develop enough desire. Never include a gun until the dog has been properly introduced to the gun. I highly recommend the d.v.d. it explains all of this in depth. Good luck!

[snips]

I strongly disagree on teaching a dog to point, as I just taught one...But it is a last resort and probably not something someone could do on their first dog.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

RA,
Dirk is only a pup as far as Weimar dogs go, work at his play training, start with his retrieving. Make it fun for him, introduce him to some wild Quail let him run around bumping the birds till he educates himself, most Weimars will start to point as they mature, some are slow maturers. Keep taking him back to the woods or fields each week. Wild Quail scent to a Weimar is like cat nip to a cat, he will eventually understand he can not catch the Quail and he will lock up on point.
The more you work with your dog the better he will become.
RGD/Dave

[ymepointer]

Your getting good advice here and below is another forum specific to Hunting Weims you may want to peruse as well.

http://huntingweimforum.com/index.php

[johnson48]

You will have your work cut out for you for sure!! Especially for your first dog.
If you do some research on the breed you will find that they were brought here and hyped up to be a "super dog". They fell short of this over-hyped status everyone expected. Hunters started to shy away. Then the show breeders got their hands on them and started breeding for conformation traits, ignoring the hunting traits. This really hurt the breed as it makes it VERY hard to find good hunting stock- most are bench bred for show. There are still some good proven hunting lines around as mentioned, but you need to get them from training, hunting kennels.

Also, Ive always understood they mature and train a little slower- not sure but you should research this also.

Perhaps the best option for you is to call/visit/join a dog club. Something such as a local NAVHDA chapter would be a tremendous starting point for you. Even if you never test the dog. The chapter is designed specifically to show beginners how to start/finish training. Youll also have people there with birds to use, launchers, etc. You will meet a lot of friends, learn all you want about dogs, and probably get invited to go on your first hunt! Also---Its wife friendly

[kninebirddog]

First thing I would do is find a club near you and get that dog on some Real birds and see if there is any spark at all.

Now if there is good desire for the bird to help the dog to figure out to point is to work out the desire to chase..this is done by teaching whoa in a manner where the dog stops and stands still not coming to you this is where i like the Rick and Ronnie Smith version of teaching a point of contact to use the e collar on the flank to CUE the dog to stop via their whoa post method this is plenty of yard work as the CUE to stop is just that a CUE not a Shock and there is a BIG difference between the two
but once you have the Cue to stop established then you go to the field and just work at stop to flush exercises until the day the dog stops on the flush on their own and doesn't need to be cued to stop..when you have this established where the dog has stopped to flush regularly not just oh the dog did it once make sure it is a new habit THEN you work on working the dog into the bird scent and if the dog goes to get the bird you launch the bird let the dog commit to chase and as you did in the stop to flush exercises you cue the dog to stop
soon the dog will learn to stop on scent and begin to point

Depending on the desire in your dog this can take a while if the dog is soft but you will help build confidence and desire when this method is applied properly and will help to keep that style for those high drive dogs who rather chase then point when starting out

[Titan_Up]

Raiderarch, Have to say I understand what you're going through. I have a 13 month Weim. that is showing similar signs. Went through a rough hunting spell last month, but seems to be getting better.

Worked all weekend on birds, and she is finding everyone that is put out, but I cannot get her to hold point. So your question and the replies you have gotten are well received from another Weim owner. I have been checkcording and she has not caught any birds.

Have had several people tell me.....birds, birds, birds. So that's what we've been doing.

PM me if you want to chat and compare, beginner to beginner.

[Neil]

All predators point, it is the pause before the pounce; house cats, wolves, foxes, dingos, bears, etc. Including all dogs, not just pointing dogs, it is how we got pointing Labs.

It is true that we have bred for it in pointing dogs with some success, particularly the style and intensity, but it really matters little if it is in their genes or not, it can easily be developed.

As I said, the hard part is training the hunt, that takes skill on the trainer and the right genetics in the dog.

I am fond of telling about my son, when 5 years old, after watching me train dogs, soon had his 8 pound cock-a-poo pointing and steady to wing and shot. He actually had the hunt part, but the legs were a bit short to range out enough for wild birds.

People, particularly other trainers, make this a lot harder than it is.

Neil

[RaiderArch]

Thanks everyone. I feel like theres a ton of great advice here. Need to find a place where I can take him out and let him find some wild birds. It's not helping that he weather around here has been particularly awful recently. As I type there's a wind chill of -10. Too cold for Texas.