Dog will NOT point?

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:09 pm

We introduced Rocco (10mos)GSP to quail today, his first time. My cousin who has trained pointers for many years commented that he has a good nose but just wont point. We tried a few different techniques, we even let him chase a worn out bird a little bit. he can find them, and gets excited (tail wagging etc..)but the lunges in for the bird. No pointing. I know he is young, and this was his first intro to birds and we kept it positive the entire time, AND he was VERY fired up and excited. how can I reinforce, or work on him to get a solid point. I know it takes time to train a great bird dog but does anyone have any pointers. My cousin has never seen this with any of his dogs. He said if any of his dogs regardless of age would get anywhere near the scent of a bird they would lock up solid.

Thanks.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:59 pm

Your cousin, does he train pups? I have not seen a dog that locked up and did not move the first time on birds. They have to be on a checkcord and stopped. Just use a checkcord and bring the dog into a planted pigeon/quail. Then have someone wake the bird up so it is walking around. Then if the dog wants to flush let it. He will not catch the bird and will start pointing because it thinks the bird is going to fly if I don't stop. It may take a few days of this maybe a week but it won't take long.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:07 pm

I agree with ohio on this one. When I first had Bailey on birds she would bustem every time. Then slowly over every point she would hold them longer.

The dog just needs to figure out he cant catchem. Slowly he will hold his points longer and longer.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:58 pm

I havea GSP just about the same age. Is your dog flash pointing? Just a pause then in he goes in? Cash would flash point and then bust 'em. He is getting longer points now but he has be exposed to more birds. I would get some pigeons and just let that dog chase as long as he wants. He will be locking up before you know it. Not Solid but pointing and creeping. If not I would talk to your breeder as that is where the problem lies. My .02

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:06 pm

Edited: After rereading the thread topic again I realized I jumped to conclusion and didint realize the situation at hand but I will leave the below diagram for a reference for those not in the know.

Not knowing how you approach a bird use this as a reference to bring pup into the scent cone properly.

The arrow is the wind direction. The X is the bird. This will be your path / going down toward the bird

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - /

X- - - - - - - - - - - - /

Hopefully I was of some help

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:13 pm

Another thing you can also do is work on whoa at dinner ...we use the command lead I will also get them used to standing there while a stand ...then stand while I walk around them..I get them used to a tap tap for movement commands and a constant for the whoa command not saying a word
then in the field on the command lead with dog working in front I will give the whoa feeling of a steady as soon as the dog makes scent..even if it requires at first me taking my hand and just holding at the waist from underneath when the dog is stadning I will have someone start to kick around for teh flush...if the dog begins to lunge or move I will have the flusher stop till the dog is standing still as soon as the dog is standing still i will have them flush...
some dogs require alot of these repetitions over and over but as long as your consistant they will learn that they need to stand there for the bird

when they become more steady on the command lead then i will go to the check cord...I ahve a setter here which is like this and yes it can be very testing on the patience..but your dealing with alot of prey drive

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:31 pm

JasonM wrote:We introduced Rocco (10mos)GSP to quail today, his first time. My cousin who has trained pointers for many years commented that he has a good nose but just wont point. We tried a few different techniques, we even let him chase a worn out bird a little bit. he can find them, and gets excited (tail wagging etc..)but the lunges in for the bird. No pointing. I know he is young, and this was his first intro to birds and we kept it positive the entire time, AND he was VERY fired up and excited. how can I reinforce, or work on him to get a solid point. I know it takes time to train a great bird dog but does anyone have any pointers. My cousin has never seen this with any of his dogs. He said if any of his dogs regardless of age would get anywhere near the scent of a bird they would lock up solid.

Thanks.

1 bird and you are worried? Keep this dog fired up about birds and read some of the arcihves.
If you want him to point birds don't let him chase the weak ones around on the ground. Use birds that are going to react to the dog.
Research what method you want to train with and study on it, stick to it but don't stick to it!!!! Read the dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:45 pm

I introduced my son to hunting when he was 12 and he couldnt hit a pheasant to save his butt. What do you think I should do?

Well my solution was I didn't send him back but just took him again the next time. Strange thing happened, he got better and doesn't miss many today.

Ezzy

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:26 am

Wouldn't worry about it at it's age and experience.

Just wondering have you done much wing on a string or retrieving exercises?

I think a little of both is fine for a baby puppy, but many of the slow to develop pointing instincts of a number of dogs I've seen were delayed due to the string and retrieving stuff.

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:20 pm

I'm having the same thing happen with my 7 month old weim. Maybe cause I'm new at this and just never did this before and don't know what to expect. I will plant a quail and lead him into the scent cone but he will never really stop. He will just try to work his way up the scent cone until he reaches the bird. I will wait till I'm about 5 feet from the bird before I finally stop him and make him stand. At this point he will stand there and let me flush but he won't stop on his own. Would it help if I just wake the quail up and not just flush it? I once had a quail wake up and start running, when this happened he stalked after it in a slow - medium stalk. Seemed to make a better impact. I don't want him sight pointing though, do I? I tryed using the manual bird launcher but I don't like it... it throws them up so fast that he doesn't even see them leave.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:32 pm

Your dog, with the slow steady stalk, is creeping once he sights the bird. This is not uncommon, but it should be stopped, or at least curbed for the time being. What you'll need to do (since he's only 7 months old) is to use bird release traps. Once your dog winds the bird and starts up the scent cone you immediately release the bird and watch it fly away. (Using quail for this application can get expensive. That's why a lot of people use homing pigeons for this.)

Eventually pup learns that when he scents the bird he stops and points, otherwise it flushes and he doesn't get to have any fun. You'll have to really watch and read your dog though, because you want to release the bird as soon as he scents it and moves in on it, not when he gets on top of it.

Of course, there's more than one way to do things and I'm sure others will chime in with alternatives. I like this method though, because it requires less handler intervention (in the dog's view) and pup starts using problem solving skills and training himself.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:42 pm

Huntumup wrote:I tryed using the manual bird launcher but I don't like it... it throws them up so fast that he doesn't even see them leave.

Hmm.. re-read and caught this. Another option: You'll need a helper.

Plant the bird, then take pup out with a checkcord. Once pup winds the bird and starts up the scent cone, stop him with the checkcord, but don't hack at him. (You can calmly say "woah" if you've worked on that command) Once he's holding steady, gently release the tension on the cord until he's holding point without pulling toward the bird. Give the cord to your helper, then you go up and kick around and flush the bird. If you have to, sleep the bird when you plant it and then when you flush it, actually put your toe beneath it and flip it up in the air with your foot.

If the bird flies off and pup wants to chase a little, let him. Eventually you'll stop letting him chase by having your helper hold the cord, but at 7 months it's best not to cut down his prey drive.

After awhile of this, pup should get the idea and start pointing and holding when he scents the bird.

If you're having trouble with the checkcord method (which can also be used in conjunction with the bird release traps) you may look into tweaking down your release tension. I got a manual LCS bird releaser (converted to remote-release) and the springs on it are/were very tight compared to the Dogtra bird releasers that I use out at the hunt preserve. When I first got my LCS releaser, I put a canvas bumper in it and the thing shot up about 30 feet. Eventually the springs wear a bit and the thing comes down to reality. You can try storing it in the lock position for awhile, that helps.

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:43 pm

I am using quail but it's not expensive with the recall pen I built

How long do you think it will take for an ametur to get the dog to start pointing. I assumed by some of the posts that the dog will be pointing by the 3rd or 4th session but I've passed that number. I am working him in the same field that I let him play in. Could this be a problem or not?

I always dizzy the quail before I plant them. I let him come downwind, I stop him when he acts birdy. When I stop him he will usually stand there until I release the bird but he will just not stop on his own. Then I will let him chase for a few yards with me holding the check cord.

I take that back he did stop once but I screwed it up! I went into my quail pen and grabbed two quail to plant and one scooted past me and ran by a tree. Well I planted the two quail I had then I went back to the tree where the one ran to. (no bird) I went and got the dog and went past that tree to get to the planted birds. The dog locked up on point. Well I figured he smelled the bird that ran through so I let him stand there for a few seconds then released him to smell around... sure enough, out pops a bird. #$#%#$#$%!!!!! I took him over to the planted birds and he won't stop. I should have never second guessed the dog. At least he didn't catch it so I guess I'm safe.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:55 pm

O.K. this is for the people with pups and that are new at this. Do not use launchers until the dog has experience with birds on a checkcord. The dog will have no idea what is going on. I use remote launchers all the time just not on pups.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:54 pm

In my experience it has never been necessary to teach a dog to point. They will do it when they are ready if you give them the oppotunity. I've had pups that have pointed since day one and others that didnt till they were a year old maybe. If they have the chance to find and chase birds they will finally start to point and that is the time to start working with the checkcord.

IMO too many new owmers think they have to trach a dog to point and it just isn't so. Let them learn and if you do get one that won't point I guess I would just start over with anpther pup.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:31 pm

Pointing is a natural instinct, that's a given. I don't think anyone's talking about "teaching" a dog to point, rather just some techniques to help bring out that instinct.

With a pup at 7 months old still busting birds, its about time to start utilizing some techniques. The pup will point (if I'm talking about the right one) because he has before (beside a tree as explained in one of the posts above). No need to give up, no need to get a new pup, just go at it calm and repeatedly give him the opportunity. It'll happen eventually, don't lose hope.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:50 pm

I have owners bring me dogs to evaluate all the time and most want to see them point. Usually easy to do. But the way I see it, pointing is about steadiness, not pointing drills, not whoa training. It's about setting up a scenerio where pointing is the correct option that leads to success. If you work on steadiness, stylish pointing will follow.

When we're working dogs, we don't say anything. It's between the dog and the bird. We teach the dog that a bird in the air is a cue to stop. You can do it with carded pigeons, a bird on a long line or birds in launchers (simulating a nervous, wild bird that won't allow itself to be pressured). If a dog has interest in birds, most will point on their own (some will even be steady to flush) within 3 or 4 bird contacts.

If you're interested, let me know and I'll walk you through it.

Brad Higgins

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:02 am

Higgins wrote:I train gundogs and their owners using the West method. I have owners bring me dogs to evaluate all the time and most want to see them point. Usually easy to do. But the way I see it, pointing is about steadiness, not pointing drills, not whoa training. It's about setting up a scenerio where pointing is the correct option that leads to success. If you work on steadiness, stylish pointing will follow.

When we're working dogs, we don't say anything. It's between the dog and the bird. We teach the dog that a bird in the air is a cue to stop. You can do it with carded pigeons, a bird on a long line or birds in launchers (simulating a nervous, wild bird that won't allow itself to be pressured). If a dog has interest in birds, most will point on their own (some will even be steady to flush) within 3 or 4 bird contacts.

If you're interested, let me know and I'll walk you through it.

Brad Higgins

Brad,
If you don't mind typing it out! I think we all could gain from it!

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:14 am

TAK wrote:
Higgins wrote:I train gundogs and their owners using the West method. I have owners bring me dogs to evaluate all the time and most want to see them point. Usually easy to do. But the way I see it, pointing is about steadiness, not pointing drills, not whoa training. It's about setting up a scenerio where pointing is the correct option that leads to success. If you work on steadiness, stylish pointing will follow.

When we're working dogs, we don't say anything. It's between the dog and the bird. We teach the dog that a bird in the air is a cue to stop. You can do it with carded pigeons, a bird on a long line or birds in launchers (simulating a nervous, wild bird that won't allow itself to be pressured). If a dog has interest in birds, most will point on their own (some will even be steady to flush) within 3 or 4 bird contacts.

If you're interested, let me know and I'll walk you through it.

Brad Higgins
Brad,
If you don't mind typing it out! I think we all could gain from it!

Totaly Agree with Tak on this one.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:52 am

This could be fun. Let's work on a specific dog.

First tell me about the dog. Age, breed, experience.

There are a few different ways to do this. I need to know what tools are available to you. Pigeons, checkcord, spike collar, e-collar, launchers, quail, etc?

What does the training field look like. Flat, rolling, type of cover, trees?

Will you be alone or do you have a helper?

We'll go through this a step at a time.

Brad Higgins

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:37 am

I'll let Jason go first since this is his post... This could get informative for us first timers.

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:10 am

First, the dog is a 10 month old GSP. He knows "here, whoa, heel" he's mostly been trained with a cc and some e-collar reinforcement when needed. I have a DT E-collar, pinch collar, check cord, 6' lead, quail, 22 pistol, and a helper if needed. Cover that I can easily get to is either wooded (logs/tree tops etc..) combined with some edge habitat (old field growth) goldenrod/grasses etc.... I currently have 6 quail and as I stated Rocco will not point, he does find the birds tho, when he hits the scent cone he goes right in on the bird. Last evening I let some quail out (planted, kinda) and Rocco would chase but didnt point. I think he's starting to figure it out that he cant catch them and he didnt.

the terrain can be somewhat rolling to flat, and even mountainous if need here in PA. Right now we have no snow on the ground.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:21 pm

Jason,

Most dogs see a bird in the air as a cue to chase. We're going to teach him that a bird in the air is a cue to stop, and that leads to success. We're not working on pointing, we're working on steadiness. He'll point on his own shortly.

If we're going to use quail, they need to be good flyers and we will need at least one launcher. If you can get your hands on some pigeons, we could do this without launchers.

We need a checkcord, no more than 15' long. And if you would, describe the pinch collar you have.

One last thing, has he ever been allowed to catch a bird?

Brad Higgins

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:23 pm

Brad,

The pinch collar I have is a leather strap type with small spikes on the inside (which would press against the dogs throat) when activated. It lets up tension the instant tension is released from the cc or lead. It has a roller type buckle.

The quail seem to be decent flyers as he cannot catch them. No he hasnt caught any birds, he fooled with a tired bird but I never let him actually catch it, he was on the cc at the time.

I have cc's in different lengths one about 30' and the other about 15 give or take a few.

I cant seem to locate any pigeons or anyone with pigeons in my area which is why I decided to get the quail. They are readily available to me at a reasonable cost. I can get a launcher if needed I suppose, do I need a remote launcher 300$? or a manual type? Lion Country Supply is only about 40 minutes from my home. I can run there after work any day.

Thanks Brad.

Jason

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:44 pm

Jason, if you're using a J.A.S.A. collar like Lion Country sells, be sure it is the one with blunted spikes.

If you're going to use quail, you really need a remote launcher or two. Could you borrow one maybe? The whole idea is to use birds that will flush on their own when pressured (like a carded pigeon) or can be launched. We aren't going to use dizzied birds or planted bird. We need to simulate spooky birds that won't allow themselves to be pressured.

We aren't going to let the dog scent the bird at all the first few times. We're going to have the dog on a check cord, launch a bird downwind (no scent involved), and stop the dog with the check cord. No verbal commands. This is the begining of "bird in the air means stop".

This is dog psycology. If you stick with me, once we get started, it will all begin to make sense.

Let me know when you're ready and we'll go through it in detail.

Brad Higgins

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:43 pm

Brad,

The pinch collar has the blunted spikes.

Ok, I'll check tomorrow and possibly get the remote launcher (thank God for the phone calls I got for designing landscapes on the side!)....It sounds as if we're going along the same routes as the Perfection Kennels Perfect Start/Finish....which I have, they do recommend a remote launcher....

You can go ahead into the details and in the meantime I will get the launcher etc....

I'll have to use the quail at this point, they do seem to fly good.

I'm new at this so bare with me.

Thanks.

Jason

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:14 pm

Brad,
are you one of the ones that taped the West Seminar about a year ago? If so I need some contact information and I would like to get a copy of it.
This last while I have been working a dog nearlly the same as the West Methoid, but in the Dave Walker fashion.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:22 pm

Yes, I taped the Bill West, Bill Gibbons seminar last year in Texas. If you would like more information, e-mail me.

Thanks,

Brad Higgins

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:22 am

Jason,

You mention in your first post that the other day was the first time you had your dog on birds. First thing we need to do is let that pup chase and bump the released quail. No commands, no checkcord, no pressure. Just release the birds and let the pup have at it. He may even catch one. That's ok at this point. Don't make a big deal if he does. Take it from him if he brings it to you but don't ask for a retrieve. Remember, at this stage, no pressure. We need to let him know what this bird thing is all about. Pretty soon, he will be looking for birds, bumping and running and probably stalking, creeping and flash pointing. Now he is ready to start.

Keep me posted.

Brad Higgins

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:40 am

Brad,

OK, I did this the second day of bird intro 101, I let 5 of my quail out to let him have at it....I let them out one at a time, showed him what they were, the birds would fly, he would chase, the birds would land he would nose around til he caught the scent then go in on the scent and the bird would fly he would chase.... this was pretty much the scenario, and now there are quail all over the neighborhood!

He now knows what birds are, he knows he cannot catch them, and he definetly goes nuts for them.

I didnt say anything to him during this chaos, just called him back when a bird left my property, I then would get another out and show it to him.

He has also seen two wild grouse, up close, and he knows he cannot catch them, he chases them as well.

Thanks.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:38 pm

Jason,

Looks good so far. Try this. It will help me read the dog.

Without allowing the dog to see this, release your quail (more than one) from the johnnyhouse. Flush them if you need to. We want them out in the field. Leave them alone for 5 to 10 minutes. Now release the dog.

In reading your post, the quail you have been using were initially released from your hand one at a time for the dog to chase. A lot of the dogs focus has been on you. That's good in the begining. Now it's time to bring out his hunting insticts. Just release him to work those quail on his own and tell me how he does.

Brad Higgins

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:41 pm

Jason, the way you need to release the birds is buy tossing the bird and letting it fly where ever it wants too. By doing this you are getting rid of most of your scent so when the pup works the bird it's all bird and none of yours.

Higgins knows what he's talking about and the west method is by far the best way I've seen to train a bird dog. You need the DVD's if your serious about this method.

Idaho Ron · Post by **Idaho Ron** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:40 pm

Higgins,
it is funny that you use stop to flush to build on pointing. I have trained my last three dogs this way, but I do it a bit different. I like to get a pup in Dec or early January. The reason is I like to run a young pup in the desert near my house on Meadowlarks and sage grouse. Ya I use meadowlarks, and no later on when I am shooting chukar they don't hunt larks. Well as long as there are game birds

First I teach the pup whoa using treats and food at 8 weeks old. Soon the pup is 12 to 14 weeks and doing it for food or coming in the house or anything the dogs want they have to whoa. Then I start to line steady the pup by holding the pup and throwing a toy. I say STOP throw it and release the pup. My pups are started by never knowing that they can break. When I take her out to go potty and she see's a bird I say STOP even if it is a starling. Soon the pups are stopping on their own at home in the yard every time the pup see's a bird. After they are stopping at birds flying over us at home, I take her to the places I know that have Larks. First we walk with a check cord. After they are stopping to flush on their own I take them off lead and let them run.
My new 5 month old pup Hildie is line steady for retrieving, and stops to flush, and steady to wing. She will whoa to verbal and whistle comands. She has scent pointed twice. Once was a Sage hen the next was a rabbit.
I think you are right on the money about teaching stop to flush first. With a pup like this i want the pup to be hunting for real by September. My last pup was steady to wing stop to flush and staunch from the very first game bird on the very first hunt. Ron

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:57 am

Brad,

I let 3 quail out of the johnnyhouse, without the dog knowing where they went. I kinda knew where they were at, but they do scatter quickly. I let it go about 10 or so minutes then took the dog to the field. he was off the cc. I was about 10 yards behind him and he locked up pretty solid on a bird, bird was about 2 feet in front of his face. I didnt say anything and let him as long as he wanted for about 5 to 10 seconds and he tried to creep in on the bird it flushed I let him chase. He chased until he caught and killed the bird, brought it back to me. He then found the other bird, it was a little farther out and I dont know if he pointed it or not I couldnt get there in time, I heard the bird flush, he chased, flushed, chased, flushed and he caught it too. the third bird we could not find. I didnt really say anything to him during this time or use any cc or any pressure. just some fun chasing birds. but I am glad it pointed, and I saw it.

Jason

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:53 pm

Jason,

Well, there it is. You wanted to see if we could get him to point and we did. We did it by bringing out his natural hunting instincts.

I'm assuming you want to move on and see him steady to wing. Here is how we do it.

As you saw, we let them chase and bump untill they begin creeping and flash pointing. Now he is beginning to hunt and stalk. Don't worry about the birds he caught. He needed that. Helped build his prey drive. We will stop the chase now and we don't need him catching any more birds.

When you get your launcher(s), we'll begin teaching him that a bird in the air means stop. Here is something you can do in the meantime. We'll work on the stand command. This is something we work on from the beginning. Put the pinch collar on the dog (right behind his ears). To start, you'll be standing over the dog. Best way to explain this is to see it. I have a short video clip of Bill Gibbons working a young dog on the stand command on my website. www.higginsgundogs.com . Under photo gallery.

First, get him to stand for a moment, (for the stand command, we don't say anything, just a short, quick tug on the collar) then release him (a pat on the shoulder and maybe a good boy). Work on this until you can take a step away. Get back to him before he moves and release him (always with a reward, the pat). This is important. Don't wait till he moves and then correct him. Set it up so you can reward success, not just punish for mistakes. As Bill West says, "have soft hands and keep your mouth shut". You get the idea. Eventually you can give him the stand command, walk away, come back and release him. Keep the sessions short and take your time. The results are worth it.

Brad Higgins

If referencing a website is against the rules here, someone let me know. Don't want to cause any problems.

Post by **Ayres** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:31 pm

Higgins wrote:If referencing a website is against the rules here, someone let me know. Don't want to cause any problems.

No problem at all, glad to have the reference. As a matter of fact, the website you listed in your profile is referenced with every post you make (the little www at the bottom of your posts).

Also, I fixed the link for you above. If you just type in the web address with the http, then it will automatically create a link. You can't end the web address like you end a sentence, though. You have to put a space between the end of the address and the period. It looks a little funny, but it's a lot easier to click through that way.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:30 am

Ron,
Sounds like a nice pup you got there. I think one of the main reasons steady to flush works so well in teaching a dog steadiness is because it keeps his level of excitement in control while training. Working just pointing drills gets a dog so so amped up, it takes a lot more pressure to get through to him.

This will be helpful for Jason. We'll be getting into this with his dog soon. I work a lot on allowing the dogs to point and work birds but, for every bird the dog points, I have probably worked him on steady to flush 4 or 5 times (birds launched downwind or flushed carded pigeons, no scent involved). Soon, when he points a bird, he holds and is careful not to flush it (bird in the air now means stop, not run). This is why dogs point in the first place. It's the pause so as not to flush the bird. As Bill West says, it's all dog psycology.

Maurice Lindley is a master at this type of training. He did an interview with Martha Greenlee called "Calm Dog, Calm Trainer". He uses launchers to get it done. I have a copy of it on the
website. www.higginsgundogs.com .

Brad Higgins

PS, Steven, thanks for the information.

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:57 am

I'll soon get a launcher Brad, I've been trying to get some extra money to get one.....It wont be long.

I've been working on the stand command in the meantime and Rocco is doing real well.

Thanks.

JasonM · Post by **JasonM** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:12 am

Brad,

why dont you go ahead and proceed with the next steps, I'm picking up a bird launcher this week at lcsupply. That way if anyone else is following the procedure they can move ahead. Plus Rocco needs a few days of rest, I need to let a cut on his foot heel up.

Thanks.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:04 am

Jason, good to hear from you.

Huntumup was interested in this training too. We can work his dog until you're ready. I think he has quail. Pigeons or quail, doesn't really matter as long as we have birds to work.

I'll e-mail him and see if he's interested.

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:47 am

Hello Higgins,

Let me fill in a little on what I've been doing the last couple of days and you tell me what you think... I went to a preserve this weekend with my uncle to work with napoleon (my weim) and then just have fun with my uncles brittney's. First we planted a few quail for him... worked down wind... he picked up the scent... he then keeps sniffing and working his way upwind until he is right on top of the bird and he stops and points and doesn't move a muscle. We pick him up, move him back about 5 yards, whoa him and flush the bird. He is pointing but he is crowding the birds so bad it is rediculous, I think it may come with age and practice but I'm not certain. We shot the blank gun and let him chase, got him fired up. Then we planted some pheasants for him... thinking more scent, he may stop sooner... same thing... works his way up the scent cone until he is about 5 inches from the bird and the holy S@#t... There it is. We flushed the pheasant and waited for him to be in a full sprint and shot a 20 GA. over him and droped the bird right in front of his face, thanks to my uncle ( nice shot ) he picked all birds up and retrieved them. I was shocked to say the least. With his toys he will bring them back but blow by me. All in all a great day... I learned a lot about him. Not gun shy (that hurdle is over), retrieves good, can work birds... worse comes to worse I got a good flushing dog. All in all we shot 4 birds over him and all were retrieved. One was cripled and he ran it down and retrieved it about 70 yards

(proud papa). I don't really care about field trials, just want a hunting companion. I know that if you want the dog steady to wing and shot you have to start them young but I don't mind if he chases.

My thoughts :roll: ... Napolean is 7 months old, needs a lot of practice, needs to grow up a little, he still has a short attention span. He is not from hunting stock... this may makes it a little more challanging but I'm up to the challenge. I'm thinking this may have to be a learned point instead of a natural point.

Supplies... bird launcher, quail, recall pen, blank gun, choke collar (not a pinch collar), checkcord, don't really have a helping hand most of the time.

Let me know what you think. Open to any and all suggestions on the crowding thing.

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:14 pm

put the bird in the launcher then pop the launcher when he first scents the bird. make it act like a wild bird would, he is crowding them becasue he can. running on wild birds would be the best but not everyone can so the lusncher is the next best thing and it has worked good for me. good luck.

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:23 pm

I have heard this before but in my opinion I don't think that would work. (I have never tried it either though) It seems to me like it would just make him want to run in even faster. He smells, he spooks, he gets to chase... seems like a game or even a flushing breed exercise. I have never trained before so I may not know what the heck I'm talking about. You would at least need to stop him first wouldn't you?

can you put this into a dog's perspective for me?

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:38 pm

To me it sounds like he is a quick learner, he has learnt that he can get close to trap birds and planted birds as they do not fly away as quickly, like a wild bird.
I wonder if he has also come to the conclusion he should see the bird?

I would keep him on a lunge or long rope, and the second you see him indicate in some way he has scented the bird, stop him.
Only do this a few times, I think too many repititions on the one day are a recipe for disaster. Finish on a good note.

Aside from this you need to teach him to stop on command, and then using a bird launcher with dog on rope, release pigeons while he is in the vicinity, preferably not pointing, and have him stop.

This is of course a lot easier if you can do it once or twice each day, when you can only do this once no a weekend it is not going to progress as quickly, but you could set up some fun situations where, say, a family member drags something across in front of him to simulate a running game animal and you enforce him to stop and not chase.

Just a few ideas that generally work for me, except on Jive

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:12 pm

Huntumup,

I'll be glad to help you with your dog but you need to slow down first. Before you start working your dog, it's important to decide on a training method and stick with it. Training a pointing dog can be done a lot of different ways. The way I am describe is the West/Gibbons method.

I can show you the best way I have found to make a dog steady and point with style. We won't teach him to point. He already knows that. We would give him a reason to point. He will soon learn that pointing leads to success.

From your post, he is learning to hunt for birds, bumping, chasing and flash pointing. This is exactly what we would want at this stage. We would now begin teaching him that a bird in the air means stop. We work on steadiness first. Within just a few bird contacts, he will stop to flush. We don't just do pointing drills. That gets him so fired up he can't listen. It would take a lot longer and require a lot more pressure to get it done that way too.

Ask some questions, do some research and find a training method you are comfortable with. If you decide on this method, I'll be glad to help.

Brad Higgins

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:26 am

First of all any annimal will point. the point is a pause before the pounce. take a carded pigeon and go try to catch it yourself. you will sneak up and get as close as posible then pause, then quickly grab for it. now throw a dead bird out and you will walk right in and pick it up because you know it will not move.

The dog will learn the same thing.he wants to catch the bird so he will get as close as he can before he pounces each time he will get closer and closer. If the birds let him he will eventually run right in and grab the bird because the bird has taught him he can. By not letting him get colse with a luancher or wild bird he will learn that he cant just run in a catch the bird. he will start to pause then try to pounce or flashpoint. at this point you would want to shoot the bird for him because he will learn if he points he gets what he wants.

A flushing dog is made by letting him catch birds if a flushing dog is never allowed to catch a bird he will start to point also. the flushing dog runs right in on the bird because he has learned thru training he can catch birds. your dog will point because thru training or hunting he has learned that pointing is the only way he gets the bird. in my opinion the main thing to do with a young dog is build his desire to catch the bird because without this he will never point.

I hope that this makes some sort of sense I am not really good at writting. I never really understood what the dog was doing when pointing until I thought of it like this. I am no expert but in my limited experience and through some field experiments I have found this to make sense to me and it has helped me to understand what I am trying to accomplish thru training. I hope that it helps.

Huntumup · Post by **Huntumup** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:20 am

Hello Higgins,

I went back and started re-reading this thread. For the West/Gibbons Method should I start by launching birds downwind and making him stand still?

yesterday I was jogging with him and I noticed he was paying a lot of attention to robins. He wanted to chase them. I came up over one hill and two robins flushed and one was one the ground so I got him pointing it, then I gave him some slack and he tried to catch it and of coarse he couldn't. Is it bad to do this. It seems like it would help to promote sight pointing but on the other hand it seems like good practice.

Rob

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:36 am

Huntumup,

Before we start, go to my website. www.higginsgundogs.com . Click on Training Library. Read the article, "Calm Dog, Calm Trainer". I think this will help you get a good idea about how we do this.

Brad Higgins

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:56 pm

At the risk of sounding "new", how do you card a pigeon. Did a search , but did not find a description.

I have my own idea, but I am not willing to sound that new

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 pm

Basically, you just get a piece of string and tie one end to the pigeon's leg, and the other end to a piece of cardboard. The cardboard causes excessive drag on the pigeon when flying, and eventually it will tire and fall where you can go retrieve it (but hopefully out of your dog's range). This is as opposed to the pigeon flying off and you never seeing it again.

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Dog will NOT point?

Dog will NOT point?

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