stops on scent , but wont point

[crewzm]

I have an 18 mo old V, used the smith silent command method to train her. She stops on scent and is steady to wing and shot. My problem is she will stop on scent, but she wont point. When she stops she has her nose in the air, you can tell she smells then bird, but her body is relaxed and her tail is down. Once on scent and stopped she will look back at me as if to say with her eyes "the bird is over there dummy" her whole body language just lacks intensity. I have been going to her and stroking her tail to get her to put it up but as soon as I walk away the tale goes back down.

I would chalk this up to not having very much drive, but once I flush the bird she acts like some one set her on fire and the only way to for her to put out the fire is for me to give her the release command so she can fetch the bird and she makes the retrieve with more intensity than most labs I have seen.

The other "point" worth noting is she will lock up like a statue if she sees a bird, whether it be a pigeon, robin, sparrow, starling, etc. I dont understand this either because when she was a pup I never played the wing on a stick game to get her to sight point. Don't know what to do? Next week end I will be going to my inlaws and will be able to get her on pin raised pheasants, and possibly wild birds, Maybe she is just tired of pigeons????

Mike

[Chukar12]

I would guess she is bored...
Pull the flight feathers of one and launch it or boot it out in the open and shoot it on the ground if you think she is steady( if not make sure someone is manning a check cord) ...This is if you must continue with pigeons. I am pretty sure she will look better with thrown down game birds, and almost positive she will look better on wild birds....but remember to be in training mode, as you progress with the dog to these new scenarios it is very likely you will get some regressions that require mild corrections.

Edit...as I re-read your post she may also be reacting a bit to her training. I would not style her or say anything, if you have to make a physical correction do it without emotion. The best looking dogs on point IMO keep that trance like look that is between them and the bird...

[4dabirds]

if the dog has been corrected at this point in training "meaning when she is on a bird" she may be losing intensity and style . If you are using a e-collar I would take it off the dog and do some repetitions with a check-cord with no corrections to see if the dogs style changes. If you are using a launcher make sure you use a locked wing scent bird set 10 yards from the launch bird. These two things will change the picture for the dog and she may forget about a previous correction. Also if the dog is pointing a bird it sees with out scent as apposed to roading in on a bird to see it with scent these are two different things. You can not fault the dog for site pointing a bird it has no chance of scenting first.

[troutbum13]

pigeons. They learn the game pretty quick. Get the dog on some wildbirds and I bet the problem goes away

[birddogger]

Maybe she is just tired of pigeons????

Bingo!!

Charlie

[kninebirddog]

sounds like she has had a lot of point work Did you allow her to work the chase out before you drilled her on the point part?

There is a lot more to the smith then just the foundation and where the points of contact for getting the desired dog in the field with out taking the style out of them.

But no matter what Working on pigeons is not all bad leaving the game birds exciting

it is a trick to keeping dogs excited on pigeons and pen raised birds and not loose the desire

I have seen dogs look like garbage on wild birds because the owner was to controlling

[ezzy333]

I have never seen a dog get tired of pigeons if you treat them like a game bird. But if all you do is release them and move on of course they figure out what you are doing. I keep reading about pigeons or game birds, the dog doesn't know the difference. All bird are game birds to the dog and they only lose that status when we don't treat the pigeon as a game bird. You train a dog the same way with quail or whatever and then go out and shoot pigeons the dog will act the same way since you aren't showing any interest in shooting the quail.

We teach which birds are game birds and the dog learns it from you.

Ezzy

[gittrdonebritts]

are you using wild pigeons or pen raised pigeons

[birddogger]

I have never seen a dog get tired of pigeons if you treat them like a game bird. But if all you do is release them and move on of course they figure out what you are doing. I keep reading about pigeons or game birds, the dog doesn't know the difference. All bird are game birds to the dog and they only lose that status when we don't treat the pigeon as a game bird. You train a dog the same way with quail or whatever and then go out and shoot pigeons the dog will act the same way since you aren't showing any interest in shooting the quail.

We teach which birds are game birds and the dog learns it from you.

Ezzy

True, and I get the feeling that is what is happening here and causing the dog to get bored with the pigeons. I may be off base here but that is what it sounds like to me. Dogs will usually still point the birds you are showing no interest in but after a while will not be as excited or intense. Kind of like when a dog points rabbits. If you are not shooting or showing any interest in them, the dog will either ignore them or half azz point them.

Charlie

[gonehuntin']

I agree with everyone else; the dog is bored and has likely been over-corrected.

It also sounds like you may be talking to the dog a lot. If so, from now on say nothing as you go in to flush the bird.

It is also possible the dog is tracking YOU to the bird. If so, try this: Tie a one ounce pyramid sinker to a pigeons leg with 6"-12" of orange yard. Go into a field on the upwind edge. With dog locked up in the truck, throw the pigeon up in the air; it should fly about 75-100 yards. Now, drive to another section of the field and work the dog in CROSS WIND to the approximate position the bird landed. When the dog points, keep quiet, walk in and in one smooth motion, cut the yarn and boot the bird into the air, either firing a shotgun or shooting the bird. That is as close to a natural situation as you can simulate.

If you always use the same field for training, switch fields. Variety is the spice of life for dogs too.

[crewzm]

Thanks everyone for the input. I was afraid of the very thing many of you mentioned about being to heavy with the corrections. This being my first dog she is obviously a faster learner than I. I will try running her with out a collar using just a check cord, change locations, shoot some birds for her (I had just been using a starter pistol and a flight limiter). I think Ezzy your a right about treating pigeons different than game birds. I will take the tip from gonehuntn to plant the birds as I have witnessed her tracking my scent to the bird and not using the wind.

[volraider]

I always have the ecollar on the dog. Just because it's on doesn't mean you have to use it. The quickest way to get a dog collar wise is to take it off and on. My dogs love the ecollar, when I have an ecollar in my hand they know they are getting ready to have some fun. I put it on them as soon as they are big enough for it to fit then they have it on everytime they are out of the kennel. I would change up locations and shoot some birds for her, but don't let her retrieve you go get the bird for her and if she stood perfect you can give her the bird if not stick it in your bag. Let her retrieve 1 out of every 5 birds and you retrieve the rest and bring it back and let her have it if she stood. If she's steady to wing and shot I probably wouldn't put her on birds but once a month unless you plan testing or trialing. Just free run and wild birds will do wonders for your dog.


JMO

Brian

[kninebirddog]

Keep the collar on just allow the dog to learn Volraider is correct

If you have been to RIcks seminar call him as the foundation is just that the foundation...Intermediate and advance the rest of the puzzle...The intermediate takes the foundation to the next steps Advanced is if you really want to go the next level of polish

When first doing birds you do not correct a dog before they committed the act of causing the bird to flush you can help them learn to stand their birds..
This is where books and printed words just do not do a process any real justice. It is easy to read words but it is more important to read the dog

[gonehuntin']

I always have the ecollar on the dog. Just because it's on doesn't mean you have to use it. The quickest way to get a dog collar wise is to take it off and on. My dogs love the ecollar, when I have an ecollar in my hand they know they are getting ready to have some fun. I put it on them as soon as they are big enough for it to fit then they have it on everytime they are out of the kennel. I would change up locations and shoot some birds for her, but don't let her retrieve you go get the bird for her and if she stood perfect you can give her the bird if not stick it in your bag. Let her retrieve 1 out of every 5 birds and you retrieve the rest and bring it back and let her have it if she stood. If she's steady to wing and shot I probably wouldn't put her on birds but once a month unless you plan testing or trialing. Just free run and wild birds will do wonders for your dog.


JMO

Brian

That right there's some golden info. DO NOT take the collar off her.

[4dabirds]

If you take the collar off and the dog shows style with only a check=cord the dog is collar wise.This is the point of the exercise to eliminate it as a cause of the problem. If the dog is on the check-cord you can control the dog and will not have to make a correction. If the dog remains the same put the collar back on but guarantee the outcome so you do not have to use it.

[gonehuntin']

If you take the collar off and the dog shows style with only a check=cord the dog is collar wise.This is the point of the exercise to eliminate it as a cause of the problem. If the dog is on the check-cord you can control the dog and will not have to make a correction. If the dog remains the same put the collar back on but guarantee the outcome so you do not have to use it.

I understand your point and it's a valid one, however, by taking an ecollar off a dog, then putting it back on, a collar wise dog will be made.

My dog's are NEVER run without a collar. I consider it the greatest safety device available for a hunting dog to man.

It doesn't matter if the collar is the cause of the problem or not; the dog must be taught to work through it.

[volraider]

I understand your point and it's a valid one, however, by taking an ecollar off a dog, then putting it back on, a collar wise dog will be made.

My dog's are NEVER run without a collar. I consider it the greatest safety device available for a hunting dog to man.

It doesn't matter if the collar is the cause of the problem or not; the dog must be taught to work through it.

+1

[kninebirddog]

If you take the collar off and the dog shows style with only a check=cord the dog is collar wise.This is the point of the exercise to eliminate it as a cause of the problem. If the dog is on the check-cord you can control the dog and will not have to make a correction. If the dog remains the same put the collar back on but guarantee the outcome so you do not have to use it.

I understand your point and it's a valid one, however, by taking an ecollar off a dog, then putting it back on, a collar wise dog will be made.

My dog's are NEVER run without a collar. I consider it the greatest safety device available for a hunting dog to man.

It doesn't matter if the collar is the cause of the problem or not; the dog must be taught to work through it.

There is one thing I could add to this Not only the Dog but the person that is in control of the collar has to learn to work through it

[Sharon]

If you take the collar off and the dog shows style with only a check=cord the dog is collar wise.This is the point of the exercise to eliminate it as a cause of the problem. If the dog is on the check-cord you can control the dog and will not have to make a correction. If the dog remains the same put the collar back on but guarantee the outcome so you do not have to use it.

I understand your point and it's a valid one, however, by taking an ecollar off a dog, then putting it back on, a collar wise dog will be made.

My dog's are NEVER run without a collar. I consider it the greatest safety device available for a hunting dog to man.

It doesn't matter if the collar is the cause of the problem or not; the dog must be taught to work through it.

Well said. Everytime I say, "I don't think I need that collar today." - something comes up that makes me wish I had the collar on the dog.

[penrod]

I sent my Vizsla to a trainer when she was young and she did terribly. Honestly, she was the worst out of all the dogs that I saw the trainer work with. Looking back on it I would have waited till she was older. She would sit and point birds, and lacked intensity. It sounds familiar to what you are experiencing. Vizsla's mature slowly and it seems like the majority of people breed them more for show/hunting than straight up bird dogs. I ended up working her with pigeons and bird launchers and I saw her points get much more intense. A lot of people are for or against launchers, but I liked having the control over the situation. I can clearly see when my dog catches scent of the birds and I would launch the birds as soon as she caught scent whether she pointed or not. Carding pigeons might also get similar results, but I'm not a big fan of spinning a pigeon and throwing it on the ground. In my experience it seems like the bird is too dazed to get up and fly like it should. I had some success using pen raised chuckar with my V, and not as much success using pen raised quail as they did not take off if my dog put pressure on them. I do think dogs get accustomed to the game of using pen raised birds or pigeons quickly, but I think it can be a good stepping stone to wild birds. Not all parts of the country have the wild bird populations that they used to. Texas has had a few bad years in a row and I have to travel far to get her on wild birds, so pen raised birds are what I have had to work with. Like anything it's all about repetition and keeping it fun. It sounds like your dog does not have a ton of experience interacting with birds. If your dog messes up, then that is a perfect opportunity for them to learn something from the situation.