New boykin spaniel owner training question

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:49 pm

My Boykin Spaniel is 11 weeks in the morning. I plan on hunting the dog (dove and ducks), I had a guy locally that did obedience and then the hunt training and he has stopped doing the hunt training just before I got this little guy. This puppy is the smartest dog I have ever seen (not saying others arent smarter) I have had him going on 2 weeks. The first few days of having him I got him where he will walk on a leash and not fight, he comes to the word "come" he sits when I place my palm up and say sit (like stop signal) like 98% of the time he has no hesitation he drops to his butt. I have ordered the "Water Dog" book and "Avery Duck Dog Basics" DVD. This is my first time training a dog anything besides really sit and shake etc, very basic things. I have also been getting him to do a few retrieves a day usually like 3 tops. I tell Gator to sit he does, I throw his toy after teasing him to get him excited, say his name he goes and gets it usually wants to lay there and chew on it I have had a few times he brought the toy back with just saying come a few others with a tug on the leash. I have been awarding him treats but I have noticed he now drops the toy when he gets to me in wait of his treat. So I am now going to be just using praise. This is all very new to me, I am sure I will be able to achieve my goals with the dog it will just take time. I actually bought Gator giving myself a year to get him ready to the field with me. I am in no hurry to make this dog a hunting machine, I want to slowly train this dog to be a great hunting partner. I do not plan on cutting any corners or skipping steps, I would rather take baby steps and it actually turn out correct. With all that being said do you guys have any advice for a newbie training a dog to hunt. I have a few guys that I can ask questions that have trained champion dogs, so that is a relief. They said what I am doing is fine just dont pressure the dog. Basically all I do is make the dog come and sit a few times and I praise him then I try and integrate it into a few retrieves and then I am done for the day. I know that once he gets a little older I can stretch out the training, I just do not want to over do it while he is so young. So do you guys have any extra advice. I am also located in SC. Thanks for any help also!

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:14 pm

shane071489 wrote:I have noticed he now drops the toy when he gets to me in wait of his treat.

try to beat him to dropping it by grabbing it before he can drop it. & don't give the treat if he drops it. don't be too hard tho, he's super young, let the puppy be a puppy. at this age, i'd be super excited he's bringing it back instead of wandering around playing keep away

shane071489 wrote:he goes and gets it usually wants to lay there and chew on it

I wouldn't worry to much about the chewing, but I would also try not to let him get in the habit of chewing on "retrieving" toys. my dog is no great retriever & I'm no expert, but I hear you should not let the dog chew on training items. give him plenty of things to chew on, but don't use those to train.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:48 pm

FWIW - I have a few more versatile dogs, two chessies, and a few just upland dogs. All of mine retrieve though.

For a puppy- I would leave the "fetching" to just a few times a week - and then only 2-3 at a time. You want him to WANT more. You quit before he quits on you. As for the dropping it for a treat - you're spot on. Stop with the treats, maybe play in a hallway - somewhere that he doesn't get to go away from you. Throw the retrieving dummy (used only for retrieving and nothing else) - for pups, I use a small paintroller or a rolled up sock or a small canvas dummy - then when he brings it back to you (because you are excited and calling to him) you praise and pet ONLY while the dummy is in his mouth. When he drops it or you take it - stop all praising. Do NOT reach for the dummy as he comes in to you - you will cause a problem with him trying to avoid you. Love him up when he comes in to you - letting him hold the dummy the whole time. Then if he drops it, loving stops, if you take it from him after a bunch of loving and petting and "good puppies", then you stop. Dummy in mouth - lots of love. Dummy not in mouth - no praise.

But do not reach for it as he comes in and take it from him - he will start avoiding you like the plague. That's a rookie mistake - but it doesn't sound like you're making that one! Enjoy this pup - those Boykins are killer dogs. Also - if he really starts to play keep away, you can always use a checkcord and reel him in - it doesn't sound like you need to go there though - just limit the places he can go after he picks up the dummy. And praise him like crazy when he gets to you - be in absolutely no hurry to take that dummy from him.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:46 pm

I would like to buy one soon.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:59 pm

mark,

You try one out first and put me on a puppy list if you ever breed!

Elsa

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:13 pm

Ok guys Im very thankful for all of the replies. I stopped with the treats and lots of praise. I use a 25ft check cord and get him real excited for the toy and when I throw it I release him with his name (trying to get him used to that when he gets older) I usually give him a little tug and he comes and is bringing it to hand. I praise the heck out of Gator I mean he probably is like holy $hit ha, after that the other 2-3 retrieves he is point on bringing it back. It is like I have to remind him what to do (no worries in my book). I just recieved my dvd "Duck Dog Basics" I watched some of that they are waiting to train their dogs sit/stay, come, heel when he is 6 months old. Am I way ahead? Im also reading "Water Dog" and he is encouraging start now (actually sooner than I did haha). What are yall's opinion? Im very nervous about training my first dog so I am trying to do this by the books, take extra time on each step and make sure I do not rush. I am actually working on Gator to stay (not saying it just using sit), I am getting him to sit and making it about 6 ft down my check cord when I bend over and tell him to come. He is a genius dog, I believe all of this is on him not me! This dog is learning new things so quickly I'm scratching my head, I am thinking you are not supposed to catch on this fast. After days on getting him to do it he has it down pat and I am still amazed! Anyone close to SC?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:45 pm

The pup is 11 weeks old! He is going to have an impossible time busting cover and will bore and tire easily. I don't think you are going to hunt as much as shoot a few birds. Don't leave him down long, or he is going to be following you. My oldest Boykin just passed after 13 hunting seasons, you have a long time to enjoy your dog. You say you won't rush or pressure hin, you expectations may well do that.

What and where do you expect to hunt? He might handle a preserve better, particularly if you tell the operater you are bringing a pup.

And don't take a bunch of buddies. Even pups that have been introduced properly to gunfire can be alarmed at a lot of shooting.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:16 pm

I posted once I dont know where it went, I will retype it tomorrow.

As I stated earlier the dog is going to be used to retrieve ducks and doves. I have a big plantation I take him to now and allow him to swim and run and get used to bigger fields. I am in no hurry to train him, I am just going by what I have read and been told to do time wise. He will be introduced to gun fire later on, the proper way. I am not going to fire a shotgun by him and see if he runs or not. He will be introduced with a cap gun or 22 from way off (150-200 yds) and work my way as he plays.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:12 am

shane071489 wrote:My Boykin Spaniel is 11 weeks in the morning. I plan on hunting the dog (dove and ducks)

In other words, you're planning to work your Boykin as a retriever, like many of us do. Not cutting corners in training and not jumping the gun to get afield with him will put you in good stead. Following a program will be even better for bringing on a Boykin. You mentioned two of them above, one I've got no problem with, the other (Wolters' Water Dog) isn't so much a program as outdated retriever training methodology. Also safe to say that Evan Graham, purveyor of another retriever program, will give any problems you encounter his personal attention if you opt for his program. But you need to choose one and follow it strictly rather than mix and match with several.

The bottom line is your patience and perseverance with a program will go a long way in getting a Boykin trained up as a retriever.

Good luck, and congratulations on your pup,

MG

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:08 am

RoostersMom wrote:
But do not reach for it as he comes in and take it from him - he will start avoiding you like the plague. That's a rookie mistake

sorry for the bad advice on that part shane, & thanks for clarifying my error rooster

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:58 pm

Its fine man, I am learning a lot right here. Well Duck Dog Basics, says wait 6 months before formal training (sit/stay, come, heel) I think that is a long time 24 weeks. I have been posting and posting but I am having to wait for my posts to be approved so yall will be bombarded ha. So far he has been point on with his training and hes only 11 weeks but I dont want to stress him and make training more difficult on myself.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:00 pm

Evan Graham? Who and which program is this?

crackerd wrote:
shane071489 wrote:My Boykin Spaniel is 11 weeks in the morning. I plan on hunting the dog (dove and ducks)
In other words, you're planning to work your Boykin as a retriever, like many of us do. Not cutting corners in training and not jumping the gun to get afield with him will put you in good stead. Following a program will be even better for bringing on a Boykin. You mentioned two of them above, one I've got no problem with, the other (Wolters' Water Dog) isn't so much a program as outdated retriever training methodology. Also safe to say that Evan Graham, purveyor of another retriever program, will give any problems you encounter his personal attention if you opt for his program. But you need to choose one and follow it strictly rather than mix and match with several.

The bottom line is your patience and perseverance with a program will go a long way in getting a Boykin trained up as a retriever.

Good luck, and congratulations on your pup,

MG

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:38 pm

RoostersMom wrote:mark,

You try one out first and put me on a puppy list if you ever breed!

Elsa

Elsa I will try to get one for you also. I was able to see one firsthand in action in Espanola. Talk about a furry brown ball of dynamite

I had a smile on my face just watching her fetch a ball. I'm sure one would be lots of fun to have for dove season. I'm going to do my best at just sticking to breeding pointers, setters and Labradors. Also met Randy lack's wife today from the wingshooting tv show at their place in Winston. Got the scoop on the Montezuma quail also. You need to come down and hunt this year. It's a big change over last years drought conditions. Also at least three dogs need a ride here and one needs to go back if your willing.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:11 am

Congratulations on getting a spaniel. Boykins are fun dogs to train and hunt with.

I would guess that "formal" training means training with some pressure involved. Yes, a dog needs to be mature enough to handle this style of training. You can accomplish a lot at a young age but don't think they have "totally" learned it. You will still need to continue to reinforce the behavior and the dogs reaction to the command can change from day to day since he is still a puppy.

Let the pup be a pup. Enjoy your time together.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:09 am

Thanks, I have talked to a few people about this. What I am understanding is to keep playing with him and get him to sit and stuff but don't progress to sit/stay and heel and more formal obedience until then? I just want to start at the right time so I can get the best result from him. Like I said this is my first time and I want to do it right.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:13 am

Shane, you're doing fine. "Let a puppy be a puppy" is sort of a cop-out for a first-time gundog owner, and especially a Boykin. The secret is getting the obedience in them with their thinking that it's play - and not to overstress about it when they fail the first or the first few times. For example, I can have a 10-week-old puppy doing rudimentary heeling by holding a daub of hamburger in front of his snout as we walk along together - I repeat the command "Heel" three or four times as we're moving and then the fourth time I let the pup catch up to that microdot of burger (or peanut butter) and devour as I'm saying "Good heel!"

The retriever training for a Boykin - which is where you want to go with this pup - all flows from the early obedience. Again, it's obedience without pressure and coming to the pup via what it "thinks" of as play or reward-based play (the peanut butter or fingertip of burger).

But you want to catch up to one of the many retriever clubs in S. Carolina as soon as you can - and you want to get in a training group NOW yes even as your pup's all of 12 weeks old. Because the equation for getting into a group goes like this: You'll be offering sweat equity (throwing birds for others) as you're receiving insight and veterans' experience on how retrievers (and retrieving spaniels) are trained. And then at the end, your pup'll get a ton of attention because everybody loves puppies and particularly loves to help a puppy do what they were born to do - which is retrieve.

Joining - and getting accepted into - a training group is the best arrangment you could ever hope for in training up a gundog - but you ain't finding or finding out about a training group unless you join a retriever club, of which there a considerable number in S.C. You can also go over to http://www.retrievertraining.net, jump onto "the RTF," and make a plea for help as a newcomer to gundogs from the Palmetto State. Some generous folks over there and I can attest, they're mighty willing to give you a hand.

Best of luck,

MG

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:20 pm

Thank you. That has helped me tons. I will do just like you said, I appreciate it!

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:44 pm

Excellent advice from MG.

Also, check out Hunting Retriever Club website. www.huntingretrieverclub.org

Lots of information and a way to search for HRC clubs in your area.

Read the requirements for each level of tests they offer. You will have a better idea of what you can accomplish with your pup and have something to train towards.

Good luck and Happy Training!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:28 pm

First sorry I got confused and gave advice for upland hunting.

Second, you live right at the Boylin factory, you need to contact the Boykin Spaniel Society, they hold their own training days and hunting tests. They are very nice, welcoming people.

Although I hunt mine on waterfowl and dove, they excell in the uplands. Mine mostly hunt pheasant, Huns, and sharptail, but are a hoot on presserve quail. And the ticket on snipe. You ought to consider expanding your hunting and try the uplands.

I saw my first Boykin hunting pheasants in Iowa in 1970, was amazed at the energy. It was not until 1998 that I got my first one, since then I have had as many as 7 at one time. Does Odyssey's Blue Duck show up in your dog's pedigree, he was used a good bit as a stud. He just died this Summer, I miss him every day.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:47 am

shane071489 wrote:Evan Graham? Who and which program is this?

It's called the Smartwork system; Smartwork for Retrievers. It is the most detailed and complete course for retrieving fieldwork. Check for yourself at http://www.evan-graham.net . Please let me know anytime I can be of help.

EvanG

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:50 am

Thanks Evan g. I will give it a look since this is my first time training, I'm super nervous that I won't do something right so the more help the better. Neil I'm ordering a pedigree this week on the puppy. He retrieved his first dove wing yesterday I don't think I have ever been so happy. A guy I know has 2 that I seen yesterday that worked great on birds weren't as obedient as I would like my dog so in going to make sure obedience in #1. I've also been working a little with how crackered said do the heel since at this age I don't want to be jerking on the puppy with a check cord and it is working well. Thank all of you guys for the information you are offering.

I will definitely contact the Boykin spaniel society and see about their training days. What exactly is a training day? A bunch of guys get up and train together?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:01 am

Lighten up on yourself, we all make errors, dogs are ver resilient.

You got it on training days. I am now guessing your pup is AKC registered and not BSS. Not sure what effect that will have, if any. BSS fought against AKC.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:54 am

Neil wrote:Lighten up on yourself, we all make errors, dogs are very resilient.

That is excellent advice. Relax and enjoy the journey.

EvanG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:18 pm

SpringerDude wrote:Excellent advice from MG.

And always is!
MG has also 'taunted' me with the Boykin for a few years,and You guy's appear to have cornered the market as we in the UK have little or No representation over here (unless you can point me somewhere?)...I'm also not sure if it classifies in our Trials ?..even the minor breeds?..or If it qualifies under AV spaniel? with KC.
Would love to have a go with one though.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:47 pm

Hey, some of us here would love to have go at the Polmaise Cup if you could bring it to North America - especially with a Boykin or two (one as spaniel, one as retriever - like that idea?

). Reckon ol' Neil here would be right smitten with the idea of it, maybe at Ames (!), and Krakadawn the epitome of the sporting gentleman, too, might like to have a crack at it as well. Tell the folk here all about it, Robt., maybe we can get it revived as the Trans-Atlantic Polmaise Cup. I mean, the NFL is playing two games in the UK this year, surely we can get one Polmaise Cup outing on these shores?

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:35 pm

It wouldn't be the Polmaise Cup if Two Boykins were used MG. Them being the 'all round everything dog'.

I would like to try one first though?> we had a couple from USA over here on a shooting holiday, raved about them, whilst admiring the spaniel work over here.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:01 pm

He is BSS registered.

Neil wrote:Lighten up on yourself, we all make errors, dogs are ver resilient.

You got it on training days. I am now guessing your pup is AKC registered and not BSS. Not sure what effect that will have, if any. BSS fought against AKC.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:04 pm

I have read the magazine and stuff like that just don't know where to find training days, I assume they are posted on their website. I am about to look on their website for them now. Thanks guys.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:08 pm

What I am seeing is training seminar for February 2014 that is $125. I don't think that is what y'all are talking about training days is it?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:09 pm

shane071489 wrote:What I am seeing is training seminar for February 2014 that is $125. I don't think that is what y'all are talking about training days is it?

No, it is not, but it might be a good idea, too.

The local clubs often hold informal, free training days, the one I know about is the Mid-south BSHC. I would call the nice lady at BSS, she will help you out.

Also ask your breeder or check other breeders, see recent litters at the web site.

P.S. I went to the BSS web site, under q &a they list local clubs that hold hunting tests, contact the one closest to you.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:42 pm

Thanks Neil, you've been great help. I would love to get out there with other dogs and work with my puppy and maybe gain some knowledge.

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:49 am

Was at my parents this weekend where it would be easy to introduce gator to gun fire started out at about 100 yards with 22 shorts never acknowledged worked in 75 50 down to 20 never fazed him let him chew on a dove wing shot at 10 yards then beside him. Beside him the most response I got was his ears moved a little wile beside me never bothered him. Will keep shooting the shorts and throwing his wing for awhile before I move up to anything bigger.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:03 am

Shane if you're going to ask for help, and expecting knowledgeable folks to give it to you, you need to stop doing dumb*ss things like shooting over an 11-12 week old puppy and letting him chew on a wing of any kind. If that's your approach, you're on your own, son.

MG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:10 pm

crackerd wrote:Shane if you're going to ask for help, and expecting knowledgeable folks to give it to you, you need to stop doing dumb*ss things like shooting over an 11-12 week old puppy and letting him chew on a wing of any kind. If that's your approach, you're on your own, son.

MG

Harash, but it needed to be to make the point.

He needs to get some type of training program. One of those mentioned or Pam Kadlec's, something.

He says one thing thing (go easy and slow, no pressure) and does another.

Whe I advised to lighten up and said dogs are resilient, I never thought about this.

Shane, please keep posting and don't do anything without asking first, except play with him.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:19 pm

Hillman's approach may be good for this team?

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:28 pm

How is this dog pressured? I play with him let him retrieve like 3 times a day he does not get disciplined at all for any mistakes, I praise him for trying. He is doing great and so far loves it. I have been told by multiple people some on here that with a Boykin spaniel and at this age I can let him retrieve, teach him to heel, sit and come without correction. Dog has done great he eat sleeps and plays all day with 4-5 min of training. So far he has surpassed all of my hopes for him. Isn't that what he is supposed to be doing ?

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:39 pm

Maybe I do not understand what you all mean by pressured... I think it is expecting a lot of your dog and disciplining him when he does not perform.

When is the proper time to introduce to gun fire then? I have the program " duck dog basics" which doesn't even start teaching to sit, heel, or come until 6 momths. I have been told I do not have to wait that long so I figured I could introduce to gun fire earlier so he would be used to it. Obviously I thought wrong...

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:52 pm

Shane,

Part of the concern is that you moved from 100 yds to next to the pup in what seems like a short time frame. A more logical pass would be a 100 yds a couple times and then the next time out a 100 yds then maybe 75 yds. Get the picture? Over a period of days if not weeks, work your way closer - not all in one afternoon. Again, a young pup, no hurry with gun intro. Also, why chewing on a dove wing? Pup should not be allowed to chew on feathers and wings. You can start some bad habits by allowing that to happen.

Here is what you need to be concerned with - that pup is not "introduced" to the gun yet. You have shot around it and it didn't get spooked. Now, in your mind, you can shoot whenever you want and the pup is used to it so should not be a problem. Wrong! You still need a slow introduction and you still need to do it gradually over some time. One day a gun can go off and it might scare the pup. It will surprise you and you will not understand the situation and then try to force the pup through this distraction or shoot some more and really spook the pup. You will then wonder why your pup is gun sensitive because you were able to shoot around your pup at 12 wks and pup didn't act scared.

You really need to get in touch with some folks that are training in your area and get some help. You need to find someone convenient enough so that you can get with them regularly and not just on a "club training day".
Are you close to this kennel? http://www.pocotaligokennel.com/about.html If not, contact Kim and ask her if she knows anyone in your community that is training dogs and could help you.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:19 pm

I don't entirely disagree with introducing gun fire at that age (however that progressed too quickly in my opinion) but letting him chew on a wing is a recipe for disaster. Wings for a flushing dog are pretty much useless unless they are strapped to a dummy (for that matter they're useless for a pointing dog as well as they really don't teach anything). I would cool it on any real training until you find a training group. I thought I was doing miracles with my cocker pup until I hooked up with someone else and realized all the small "unimportant" things I was doing wrong. Just having someone there to analyze your body language is huge. You have been given good advice by a few people on here - take it. Crackerd can attest - he tried to help me out in my early days as a spaniel man and I bucked at the reigns the entire time, but when I gave in (out of sheer coincidence) my dog developed in ways I cannot even explain. These folks know what they're talking about because they have made the same mistakes. Trust them and do what you need to do to make your dog the best "bleep" dog you've ever had

shane071489 · Post by **shane071489** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:16 pm

Thanks for those last two posts. You are correct I did a few shots at each distance and watched the pup carefully. I misunderstood what I have read, if the dog doesn't not show any sign on distress to keep moving closer i guess they meant days makes sense.

I will contact her and the Boykin society. She is 2 1/2 hrs away from where I am, I'm staying a few minutes from Beaufort so shouldn't be hard to find someone.

Thanks for the helpful comments I'll keep you all posted on what new information I receive and how the puppy is coming along. I don't want to ruin him so ill do whatever is needed.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:20 am

Listen, I have a serries of photos of a 10 week old Boylin flushing, then retrieving a shot pen quail, but I have been doing this a long time, a very long time. I was experimenting, and knew I could correct any problems it might cause.

It is not what Shane did, it is how he did it.

I spent a couple hours researching to help, and then he took a very big step, independently. Did not bother to ask first.

And now he is arguing that he was right, this Internet training is hard work for all.

SpringerDude · Post by **SpringerDude** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:23 pm

Dog training is all about the finer details not just doing the drills. We all do basically the same things but at what age, how many repetitions, when do you expose the dog to situations, how do you set up the exposure, etc, etc.

We all correct dogs but how do we correct them? when do we correct them. It is all about the finer details and reading the dog. The perspective changes based on the handlers experience in the field and the dogs experience in the field, maturity and age. (Age and Maturity are different!) Some dogs are not ready for a particular training regime at the age a different dog was ready.

This is why first hand observation is better than reading what happened. Reading a scenario only gives the perspective of the owner and what the owner observed. Another person watching the dog could see a different scenario even watching the same thing at the same time.

Another way to look at it : "I know you heard what I said but you didn't know what I meant".

Just my thoughts but similar to what Neil is saying.