Why does everyone love Purina Pro Plan so much?

[Duke82]

I have been doing some research on puppy food and have found alot of people recommending purina pro plan. So I looked into it and I not going to lie I was not real impressed what I found. It seems to have alot of filler in it rice and corn. I then did more research and found a smaller company named Diamond that makes a good puppy food called Diamond Naturals Large breed puppy that seems to have less filler. It also has all the extra stuff that purina pro plan has in it. The regular purina pro plan has even more filler in it the first five ingrediants are chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn. For animal that is naturaly suppose to be eating meat that seem like alot of corn, wheat and rice. Here is the ingredients list of the two, let me know what you guys think.

Purina Pro Plan Puppy

Lamb, brewers rice, chicken meal, corn gluten meal, ground yellow corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn bran, oat meal, dried egg product, dried beet pulp, animal digest, calcium phosphate, fish oil, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.


Diamond Naturals Large breed puppy

Lamb, lamb meal, egg product, cracked pearled barley, millet, ground rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potato protein, oatmeal, potatoes, tomato pomace, flaxseed, natural flavor, salmon oil (source of DHA), ocean fish meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract, L-Carnitine, Enterococcus faecieum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Saccharomyces cerevesiae fermentation solubles, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

[MOOSE]

I think a lot of people push purina in a breeding program as purina has a points system that breeders can get points and earn free food or merchandise. Other dog foods don't always do this. Nutro does earning free bags of feed and this is what I will do but I really think that is why. Along with the fact that Purina has a lot of MONEY they can use to get their name out there!

I agree once I started looking at ingredients I realized that they were not that great. I am a die hard Nutro person but that is just me. I believe that each person needs to feed what is best for their dog!

[ezzy333]

We have had feed discussions about every month for the last few years and the same questions still come up.

First thing is neither feed has any fillers in them. Every ingredient in them is there to provide a good well balanced diet to your dog. Both are excellent feeds and you will be hard pressed to find anything that will do more for your dog.

Dogs are not true carnivores like a cat. They have for hundreds of years eaten vegatable matter along with the animal products. In more recent times most dogs ate a diet made up of mostly vegetables till the dogfood companies came along and started providing a much more balanced diet for them. It probably shows too as dogs are healthierand live longer than ever before.

Do you and your dogs a favor and find a feed that they like and do well on, that is readily available to you,and is a price you can afford and use it. Don't spend much time reading the ingredient lists but look at the total protien, fat, and fiber levels and if they are what you want, you again are in good shape.

I can't think of anything that is much more misunderstood than dogfood formulas and why each ingredient is in the food. But again, they are all there for a reason and the results have proven it. There isn't a company in the world that has decided to make the poorest feed possible, sell it, and then think customers will continue to buy it. And to stay in business they have to have repeat customers. Diamond and ProPlan are still making dogfood because they make a good product that produces good results and they make it available to people through out the country at a reasonable price.

Use either one and your dog will be happy.

Ezzy

Ezzy

[big steve46]

I mostly agree with Ezzy. I do like the Diamond ingredients sl better especially since it has a few chelated minerals which may absorb sl better. Most dogs do well on about any good quality food.

[Duke82]

First thing is neither feed has any fillers in them. Every ingredient in them is there to provide a good well balanced diet to your dog.

You don't think corn, wheat and rice is cheaper than meat for big companies like purina to put in their dog food. That is why their called fillers to make weight, if thier was no such thing why don't everyone just feed ol'roy. Because your dog will be eating 3 times as much to get the same nutritional value as one bowl of quality food. And that same dog will be dropping most of that food in the backyard because its body has no use for it.

Don't spend much time reading the ingredient lists but look at the total protien, fat, and fiber levels and if they are what you want, you again are in good shape.

Their are diffrent types of proteins and which ones are better for dogs i would guess the protein that comes from meat. I mean look at pro plan they have 1% higher protein lvl's but look at their ingredients alot of rice which is a excellent source of proteins. I don't know I just find it all to convinant for these big companies like purina that have the big name to put extra grain in their food and get away with it because they are selling their name also. Just my thoughts don;t take it personal anyone.

[/quote]

[Ridgeviewer]

Duke, I've recently done some homework on quality feed as well. The Diamond Naturals seemed great to me untill I found that just about all of my local dealers had dropped them due to recalls, and new formula/ loose stool issues. Keep in mind, I am strictly going by what I was told when I tried to purchase the Naturals. I continued to look at feed and choose Black Gold. You might give the Black gold Ultimate line a look...

As far as Purina, in my eyes... They certainly have been around for years. In fact I have fed purina of different varities for many years. I have to say my dogs did fine on purina.
However, Now that I know what "Animal Digest" is I will no longer feed Purina "Anything".
Even By the most qualified definition of "Animal Digest" it mentions only being used in low quality dog foods, and dog treats.
I was totally disgusted to see purina using this crap in their Pro Plan feed.

Ridge

[MikeB]

Duke82 I couldn't agree with you more. That is why I have fed CANIDAE since day one it hit the stores 12 years ago. I can't find any better food at any price. No junk grains and human grade meats. The ingredints for skin and coat are superior to most. http://www.canidae.com

Large Breed Puppies do great on All Life Stage 24/14.5 formula or the Chicken / Rice 26/16 formula. You never have to change feed since it is all life stage. Just adjust the daily amount as they grow.

I have tested the Kirkland Chicken Rice 26/16 formula at Costco and found it worked very well too. The quality if way above any Purina food for an amazing price of $18 for 40 lbs. I know many boarding & rescue kennels that feed Kirkland C/R with great results.

It is all about what works for your own dog. You may have to change foods to find what works best. That's what I did until I found Canidae.

[ezzy333]

Duke,

You don't think corn, wheat and rice is cheaper than meat for big companies like purina to put in their dog food. That is why their called fillers to make weight,

Grain products supply a completely different product than does the meat products. Even though grain is more diversified than meat in that it does supply more things the primary purpose of the grains are to supply the carbs while the sole purpose of the meat products is to supply protien. The two are not interchangeable as you can see.

if thier was no such thing why don't everyone just feed ol'roy

I don't quite follow your thinking on this so I can't helpmuch. However many many people do feed Ol' Roy and the dogs do quite well on it. It is a cheaper feed though and is marketed that way to provide a good food for the people with a pet and don't want to spend a fortune on their dogfood.

I mean look at pro plan they have 1% higher protein lvl's but look at their ingredients alot of rice which is a excellent source of proteins.

Where did you get this info from and could you post it for us? Rice really is a very bland source of carbs primarily since it is mostly starch and is quite low in protien. Whole ground yellow corn would supply the carbs also but does supply more protien and fat than rice will. Plus there are many varieties of corn that have different properties so depending what type they are using it could be a high sugar, starch, oil, or protien corn. But even with allof that, it is still used primarilyto supply the carbs.

Because your dog will be eating 3 times as much to get the same nutritional value as one bowl of quality food.

Tell me rational of a company butting in the extra weight and paying to ship it all over the country when they could cut the weight down 66% and you could get the same results. When you figure the transportation today it amounts to a large % of the cost of the food and it just doesn't make sense for this big bad company to spend that extra money for no good reason.

Ridgeviewer,

The Diamond Naturals seemed great to me untill I found that just about all of my local dealers had dropped them due to recalls, and new formula/ loose stool issues

Diamond had one recall of feed produced at one of their mills a year or two ago. The lose stools I can't comment on since I no noone that has had a problem with it when they got the dogs switched over to it.

I continued to look at feed and choose Black Gold.

I do think you picked a good food as I have heard little negative about it from anyone.

However, Now that I know what "Animal Digest" is I will no longer feed Purina "Anything".
Even By the most qualified definition of "Animal Digest" it mentions only being used in low quality dog foods, and dog treats.
I was totally disgusted to see purina using this crap in their Pro Plan feed.

I was trying to see where this came from and all I can find is what some bloggers had to say. Thats not a reliable source of info in my mind. Can you tell me what animal digest is and what it is used for? I can't find anything that says it is bad and I wonder if it is why they would use it and why so many breeders and trialers use their products and think they are one of the best on the market. That kind of flies in the face of the bloggers opinions.

Remember feed companies who plan on staying in business have to rely on repeat business from satisfied customers. The way they do that is they make a good feed that people want to use because of the results they get. Most feeds are good and there are minor differences but the maindifference is how they are marketed and not in the quality of the feed. Each and everyone has to meet the requirements of a healthy dog or they won't be here next week. And as we all know,most have been here for sometime and are doing pretty well even though it is a hard way to make much money do to all the competion.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

I researched the dog foods by feeding it to my dogs, not reading the advertising on the bag.

Pro Plan is a quality food that keeps dogs going in tough conditions. Few foods can do that.

Granted, Diamond is not one of the foods that was included over the years in my feeding trials, but the concept holds. The label on the bag is no indicator of the performance of the food through your dogs.

[h20fwlkillr]

When I read dog food labels I have to laugh. I've noticed a lot of designer brands saying they use "human grade" ingredients. I haven't seen a dog eat one thing on it's own ( besides a few rabbits ) that I would eat. The label isn't going to keep your dog going in the field. Pick a food that your dog does well on whether it be always save, or kibbles and bits. How your dog does on a particular food is all that matters.

[Ridgeviewer]

Ezzy333,
After being told about the Diamond Recalls I looked to the FDA, and found the following Recalls.
The first one is the one you mention.
Diamond Pet Food Recalled Due to Aflatoxin
http://www.fda.gov/oc/po/firmrecalls/diamond12_05.html

Then a couple recalls due to Rice Gluten..
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/p ... 29&pet=Dog

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/p ... od&pet=Dog

These recalls were unfortunate, and not totally Diamonds fault. However, it did hurt their reputation some. On a positive note, Diamond now uses a very good 151 point quality control process.

As for Animal Digest...
I have directly contacted Neil Lanning who is the Animal Products Specialist at AAFCO, and requested AAFCO's formal definition of "Animal Digest".
I will post his response when I receive it.

As I understand, "Animal Digest" amounts to a yellowish, broth consistancy, liquid that has been obtained through the rendering, and hydrolysis of decaying carcasses of unregulated species, and cause of death. The nutritional value being a very inexpensive source of slight protien.

On a personal note... I live within 15 miles of a "Rendering Facility". I have driven behind the open bucket semis hauling carcasses to the facility many times. Some time after Katrina flooded the south, I was fortunate enough to be driving behind a full load of bloated hogs, that had been drown in the flooding. These bad boys were hanging out of the truck everywhere due to the 1000 miles of 90 degree heat, and continued bloating. Not to mention the oozing slime escaping through the tail gate door. I'm not sure you can fully appreciate the smell over the internet, but backing off a mile did not help.
Now if this seems really nasty to you, your right, and you also understand my non willingness to feed this garbage to my dogs.

The FDA has a bit of interesting reading concerning the use of rendered, and hydrolyzed carcasses if you poke around a bit.

Lastly, I'll mention that of the 20 or so premium dog foods I researched, "insomniac here" Purina is the only brand to use Animal Digest. On the other hand, if you look into the countless dog foods that most of us consider cheap crap dog food... They all use Animal Digest as an ingredient.

In my opinion, Purina has choose to put themselves in this catagory for finacial gain, and for me they will stay there as long as Animal Digest is on their label.

Ridge

[Kiki's Mom]

I have tested the Kirkland Chicken Rice 26/16 formula at Costco and found it worked very well too. The quality if way above any Purina food for an amazing price of $18 for 40 lbs. I know many boarding & rescue kennels that feed Kirkland C/R with great results.

For what it is worth, the Kirkland Brand of dog food at Costco is manufactured by Diamond, as is the line called Chicken Soup For the Dog Lover's Soul . Diamond has several lines under their umbrella and some are better then others. I have used the Kirkland formula in the past with decent results but admittedly the dogs I was feeding then included a couple of show Pembrokes and a Rottie, not performance hunting dogs.

I'm really liking my Precise Plus and Precise Endurance formulas these days. My string of 15 dogs all look, feel and perform great. Several dogs of those 15 are also show dogs and their coats, although they are housed outdoors most of the time, all look terrific. Precise was NOT involved n any of the pet food recalls, all food is manufactured in a USA plant in Nagadoches, TX and all ingredients are American, not imported. There is no corn, wheat, or soy products used in their ingredient lists either

[Duke82]

Here is a link showing the nutritional values of corn and rice.
http://www.organicfacts.net/nutrition-f ... -rice.html

[slistoe]

Now if this seems really nasty to you, your right, and you also understand my non willingness to feed this garbage to my dogs.

And I'll bet that, given a choice, your dogs would eat that garbage over anything else you will offer everytime. I will also lay it on the line that they will never get sick from eating it - even before it is processed into something that would be safe for human consumption.

[slistoe]

For what it is worth, the Kirkland Brand of dog food at Costco is manufactured by Diamond, as is the line called Chicken Soup For the Dog Lover's Soul .

The problem with that is twofold. The same bag will come from a different manufacturer when a better deal is made. What is in the bag represents the mix and quality requested by the buyer (Costco) not what is normal practice for the name brand of the company producing it. Goes for tires made by xxxxx at the discount store as well.

[snips]

I have been experimenting with some various foods lately, we fed Pride for yrs but cannot get it now. Have been feeding the Hunters Edge and like it, bu with colder weather coming on us the more we feed the way more stool, and it is loosening up. (a big issue for me!) You guys can say what you want about fillers in Purina Pro Plan, but the stools are firm and not much of it, that tells me ALOT...We just cannot get any deals for large kennel use. I am trying HI-TEK, they have a hi end no corn formula. Also may het some Black Gold to try, everybody says good things about it. Guy brought me several bags of that Diamond Natural stuff and the stools were like Cow pies, I dumped it!

[snips]

Yes Ted, and I am a member, just not crazy about all that cuttin and mailing! I think they could do more for big kennels without all that...

[Ridgeviewer]

Now if this seems really nasty to you, your right, and you also understand my non willingness to feed this garbage to my dogs.

And I'll bet that, given a choice, your dogs would eat that garbage over anything else you will offer everytime. I will also lay it on the line that they will never get sick from eating it - even before it is processed into something that would be safe for human consumption.

Slistoe, Your a fan of Pro Plan. I get that. Your dogs, and millions of other's do well on it. I get that. My use of the word "Garbage" refers to one ingredient, "Animal Digest". I've re-thought my opinion time and time again, and just can't think of a better word for an ingredient that is made by letting enzymes or chemicals turn rotting carcasses into broth like slime. This is exactly how the septic tank in my back yard works, and even though I know cooking the end result product would make it safe to eat, My dogs and I will not be having any with dinner tonight.

One other tidbit according to the FDA... No amount of processing will make Animal Digest safe for human consumption. It is on their official list of " Not For Human Consumption"

My question to you is... Do you feel that Animal Digest is a Worthy Ingredient, or are you simply saying you are willing to tollerate it being in Pro Plan because it doesn't make your dog sick?

The FDA states that the use of Animal Digest in pet food and pet treats is mostly a usefull way to dispose of this animal by product. Once again, the word Garbage comes to my mind..

Ridge

[snips]

I don't like that ing. I went and looked at bags (I have several different kinds right now) and sure enough, it as only on the Pro Plan.

[Ridgeviewer]

Ezzy333, as I promised you, here is my correspondence
with Neil Lanning of AFFCO

From: RIDGEVIEWER
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:46 AM
To: Lanning, Neil (AGR)
Subject: Ingredient Definition


Hello, Can you provide me with AAFCO's official definition of Animal Digest?
Thanks Very Much
Larry
Orient, Ohio

In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:59:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, NLanning@agr.wa.gov writes:
Here it is.



Animal Digest – a material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. If it bears the name descriptive of its kind or flavor(s), it must correspond thereto.



Neil

Neil Lanning
Feed Specialist
Washington State Department of Agriculture
360-902-2052




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you have it. The official definition of Animal Digest directly from the governing agency of animal feeds. The only requirement is that it be animal tissue. No restrictions on using diseased, poisoned, or euthanized animal tissue. Ever wonder where animal shelters unload euthanized animals? I seriously do.
Ridge

[ezzy333]

undecomposed animal tissue---undecomposed animal tissue

Do you understand undecomposed animal tissue? Not decomposed like you were describing. The tissue used is waste products from slaughtering that has good nutrient in it that are having to be disposed of if they aren't used. In the fish industry there are companies making big money to catch the garbage fish to use your expression and are selling it to companies to make the fish digest out of. Omega fatty acids is the result.

Everybody loves fish meal and fish digest and it is the same product only from fish instead of from animals. I believe if you look far enough you will find that clean cold water is used to make the slurry.

Did you see on the other thread where Purina is adding hair to there feed also? That is just another of the many rumors that have been started about the dogfood companies.

Everyone of these rumors, without exception and also the complaints about grain being fillers were started by someone who had no clue about dog nutrition and no facts to base their opinions on.

While we are on the subject of nutrition and things you thaik are really bad, did you know ducks are fed turkey manure as a sole diet and do well on it? Did you know they are mixing cattle manure back in to the silage and call it wasteledge and feed it back to the cattle because it is only partially digested and they do better on it when fed the second time. Do you know we feed cattle urea because it is cheaper than soybean meal and produces better efficiency when fed along with a high roughage diet?

The point is what we think is good or appetising isn't always for the animals we keep. Someone with no knowledge of nutrition would think that a granulated fertilizer product in feed was a filler, or manure in the silage was a filler but they would be dead wrong.

The people making the feed know what they are doing when they produce the best feed they can for your dog regardless of what you think about the ingredients. Many of the companies like Purina and Diamond get in trouble because they forget the people feeding the dogs think they know more than the dogs. Watch your dog and when he is eating well and is in good condition you are feeding a good feed even if it is made with roadkill possoms.

Ezzy

[Ridgeviewer]

Ezzy,
I fully understand "undecomposed" as opposed to my use of the word "Decaying". All animals begin to decay/ decompose upon death. In my opinion, the word "undecomposed" as used in AAFCO's definition simply means the animal tissue can not arrive broken down into simpler compounds prior to rendering. Webster's seem to have a similar definition of "Decomposed."

I have provided exactly what you asked of me. A legitimate definition of Animal Digest, directly from The Association Of American Feed Control Officials. Which is a branch of the FDA.

To imply the only animal tissue source in animal digest is slaughter house left overs is pretty optimistic.

Finally, I make absoulutely no claim to know more about animal nutrition than anyone.
I simply have an opinion of an ingredient that I prefer not be in my dog feed.

Ridge

[midwestfisherman]

Here's my experience with Purina Pro Plan FWIW, I tried using it on three different occasions and each time saw the same results. When feeding it to my dogs they had constantly runny stools, several of them developed hot spots and constant itching, one was so extreme that he had to be put on steroids to help clear it up. Many vets that I talked to as well as independent pet store owners are all of the same opinion that it is not a good feed.

I switched to Nutro Natural High Energy for all of my dogs except 2 now and they're on Canidae since that is what they came to me eating. I haven't bothered to switch them yet.

I switch the ones on the High Energy food to Nutro Max outside of hunting and trial season since they don't need the calories of the High Energy during those times. I have 2 females that put weight on very easily so I have to watch that pretty close.

With the Nutro I have seen excellent results. All of my dogs have excellent coats, muscle mass and stamina when trialing or hunting. The proof for me is in my dogs. YMMV

[phermes1]

Man, people sure can get awfully excited about what they feed their dogs!!!

[Ayres]

Do you understand undecomposed animal tissue? Not decomposed like you were describing.

I'm a little confused here, but I think you're a little off base with this one Ezzy. I think I should be dizzy what with the amount of spin put on that definition of "animal digest" by AAFCO. Let's break it down:

1. "Animal Digest – a material which results"
(Meaning it doesn't start out this way)

2. "from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis"
(a.k.a. "decomposition" - ask Webster: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hydrolysis )

hydrolysis

Main Entry: hy·dro·ly·sis
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
Date: 1880

: a chemical process of decomposition involving the splitting of a bond and the addition of the hydrogen cation and the hydroxide anion of water

3. "of clean and undecomposed animal tissue."

So, basically, they take "clean and undecomposed animal tissue" and then use a process of decomposition to turn it into "animal digest" for use in the feed.

Sounds to me like they're using decomposed animal tissue as a result.

But, I digress. I liked Pro Plan for the same reasons others like it: The dog ate it, had small stools, and seemed to be getting nearly everything he needed from it. The price point was good because I had a sweetheart deal going on. However, my good deal dried up, and now I'm switching over to NutriSource - a feed just as high in quality, if not higher, and for a less expensive pricetag. The bonus on the NutriSource is that it has glucosamine, chondroitin, ascorbic acid and the omegas already added. So I don't have to supplement those anymore. (I was adding a joint soother vitamin, ester-c, and fish oil). That makes the savings even better.

[lvrgsp]

Dogs like people, do well on some feeds and not others. I would go to say that Purina has the most extensive canine animal research center in the world. There is a method to there madness, the good thing is if your dogs do not do well on it, try another food. My guess is if your dogs are doing well on it, they won't give a "bleep" what the brand name is.

JMO,
Chip

[slistoe]

Ridgeviewer, my use of the word garbage was not in context of the food, but the ingredient as well. We find the thought of rotting food repulsive. It is an instinctual response to help us survive. Our system cannot handle decomposed meat and eating it will likely cause violent illness possibly leading to death. It is a beneficial, instinctual response. Dogs also have an instinctual response based on their need to survive. Place a fresh cut t-bone steak next to a piece of rotting intestine and the dog will instinctively choose the one that appeals to them the most. There is no downside to the feeding of a high quality protein source in the form of digested animal tissue to dogs. Never mind the fact that it is fully sterilized in the dog food and would be perfectly safe for people to consume in that form as well. Dogs do not have psychological issues with their food, only their humans who need to anthropomorphize do.

I do not feed ProPlan. I do recognize it as being on the short list of high quality performance foods that get what a dog needs into the dog - because I have test fed it to my dogs through the most rigorous demands I can and will put my dogs through. They needed to maintain an extremely high level of physical workout and conditioning for months on end while maintaining a show quality coat. The other foods that worked were Eagle Power Pack, Euk. Pink, Precise (don't remember the name of their performance food) and Nutram Performance. Some that didn't work at all were Nutro, Science Diet, Pedigree, Purina One, Dog Chow, Ol' Roy and Kirkland. Kasco kept the dogs in physical condition but couldn't keep the coat in shape.

[Kiki's Mom]

Did you know they are mixing cattle manure back in to the silage and call it wasteledge and feed it back to the cattle because it is only partially digested and they do better on it when fed the second time. Do you know we feed cattle urea because it is cheaper than soybean meal and produces better efficiency when fed along with a high roughage diet?

Precisely why we raise a steer every year for our own consumption!!!! Commercial farming has really come a long way towards destroying our once wholesome diets. My beef tastes 1000x better then ANY steak bought at the supermarket or purchased in a restaurant and *IS* totally healthy for me. My cows are 100% grass fed and supplemented in the winter months with grain grown locally.

***shudders***....I guess since the commercial farmers are cutting the expenses so well it is a wonder to me that we aren't seeing more side results on our own human health other then the growing obesity problems our society is starting to experience.. I heard that the United States boasts the highest percentage of obese people per capita then any other country world wide????? What exactly does that mean????

[Ridgeviewer]

Slistoe,
Thanks for answering my question about your feelings towards Animal Digest. If I read your reply correctly you are stating that Animal Digest is a, "high quality protein source".

Do any of the other feeds you mention that "worked" contain animal digest?
Please take no offense if I point out almost all of the feeds that you stated, "did not work at all" contain animal digest.

Please keep in mind that I do not believe the poor results from these feeds were caused by animal digest, but it certainly is a common denominator in the recipes.

From what I have looked at, Purina Pro Plan Performance is the only feed in the Pro Plan Line that uses this "High Quality form of Protein". I'd naturally assume that the entire line of purina pro plan would be deserving of the same "High Quality Protein"...

Have a Great Evening,
Ridge, AKA "The Anthropomorphizer"

PS... Thanks for that, I got a really good chuckle out of it.

[slistoe]

From what I have looked at, Purina Pro Plan Performance is the only feed in the Pro Plan Line that uses this "High Quality form of Protein". I'd naturally assume that the entire line of purina pro plan would be deserving of the same "High Quality Protein"...

And if you will note I tried three different Purina products, only one of which was worthy of feeding to my dogs. The fact that it exists only on the Performance label would suggest to me that they are using it for a protein source that contains a higher fat content as well. But I am not a dog food nutritional recipe expert. I do not believe that any one particular ingredient alone creates a good or bad feed. I also believe that there is a wide variation in the quality of "animal digest" that can be purchased to be used in feeds just as there is a difference in what nutrition can be gained from various varieties of corn, and even when the same corn is used that the processing method can affect the level of nutrition available to the dog from it. Reading a label is about the most ineffective way of deciphering the quality of the food in the bag that there is.

[slistoe]

Here's my experience with Purina Pro Plan FWIW, I tried using it on three different occasions and each time saw the same results. When feeding it to my dogs they had constantly runny stools, several of them developed hot spots and constant itching, one was so extreme that he had to be put on steroids to help clear it up. Many vets that I talked to as well as independent pet store owners are all of the same opinion that it is not a good feed.

I switched to Nutro Natural High Energy for all of my dogs except 2 now and they're on Canidae since that is what they came to me eating. I haven't bothered to switch them yet.

I switch the ones on the High Energy food to Nutro Max outside of hunting and trial season since they don't need the calories of the High Energy during those times. I have 2 females that put weight on very easily so I have to watch that pretty close.

With the Nutro I have seen excellent results. All of my dogs have excellent coats, muscle mass and stamina when trialing or hunting. The proof for me is in my dogs. YMMV

And there is the basis for the continuation of the production and sale of the wide variety of foods we have available. I experienced the direct opposite results with both my Brittanys and my Labs on these two types of food products. In my experience the Nutro label is not worth buying - I couldn't keep a show quality coat on my dogs with it even when they weren't running. The stool volume was easily double the other feeds and was always loose. This was based on a two month trial on half the dogs in the kennel.

[shets114]

While we are on the subject of nutrition and things you thaik are really bad, did you know ducks are fed turkey manure as a sole diet and do well on it? Did you know they are mixing cattle manure back in to the silage and call it wasteledge and feed it back to the cattle because it is only partially digested and they do better on it when fed the second time. Do you know we feed cattle urea because it is cheaper than soybean meal and produces better efficiency when fed along with a high roughage diet?

Wonder how mad cow, avian flu and other diseases spread and contaminate our food?

I know some crap eatin dogs out there but I don't think I am going to add it to there diet.

I used Pro Plan Performance for 7 years. One dog had hot spots off and on. Switched to regular Chicken and Rice Pro Plan got fatty tumor. (not saying it came from the food but hadn't had a problem since).
Other dog couldn't put weight on and got hot after only an hour of running was wore out. Stools were good though....
IMO it is a decent food just overpriced and advertised. Didn't work for me.

[steingre]

One of my GSP's has a problem with runny stools- if he's eating what the other three eat, it's piles of XXXX all over the place- I tried a LOT of different feeds- and Pro Plan is the only thing that I have found that firms him up.

I have no idea why, and don't particularly care- he looks good, coat is fine, keeps his weight on, and hunts all day!

[ezzy333]

Wonder how mad cow, avian flu and other diseases spread and contaminate our food?

Good question, I think they spread like they always have as I have never heard anything different. Luckily the two you mentioned have never been much of a problem in this country but over in England and Asia where things are done differently they have had problems. Hopefully we can keep them from entering the country and being a big problem here too.

Ezzy

[dog dr]

I havent read this whole thread, and i dont have a dog in this fight as i feed somwthing else, BUT, i thought the following was an interesting read. Yes, I realize the Iams company makes Eukanuba and that they did the study, but i still think its interesting. let me know what you guys think.



Does Good Nutrition Really Help?
Despite the general agreement that optimal nutrition is valuable and desirable, the lingering question of the effect of top nutrition on the performance of a bird dog has puzzled trainers and owners. Research conducted by The Iams Company on the quail plantation in Georgia mentioned earlier yielded some remarkable answers to that question.5 23 English Pointers were selected for the study. The dogs were allotted to two experimental groups based on age and gender. No information on the previous hunting performance of the dogs was available to allocate them to the respective groups. Allocation as to hunting performance was completely randomized. The dogs were further assigned randomly to one of two professional handlers employed by the plantation. While these handlers were responsible for the daily care and hunting of their dog group, they were unaware of the diet that the dogs were being fed. Data collected over the hunting season included blood values, body weight, stool quality, body condition, skin and coat health, and, importantly, the hunting performance of the dogs.

One group of dogs was fed a well-known performance-type food* while the second group was fed a diet that is popular with bird hunters but was not a “performance food”. Over the entire season, the dogs on the performance food not only maintained their body weight and condition better, they found more birds. Pointers fed the performance food had nearly 2.5 finds per hour over the season, versus just over 1.5 finds per hour for the dogs fed the other food.

In the second year of the study, two performance foods were fed. Diet A contained animal-based protein, featured an adjusted omega fatty acid ratio between 5:1 and 10:1, and utilized a well-researched fiber source (beet pulp) proven to promote intestinal health* while Diet B contained some plant-based protein, a fatty acid ratio of 17:1, and corn bran as the fiber source .**

Over the quail season, the Pointers fed Diet A had 3.0 finds per hour, versus the Pointers fed Diet B’s 2.2 finds per hour. This translates to 33% more finds per hour for the dogs fed Diet A. Rectal temperatures were also taken after hunting each day. Dogs fed Diet A had average temperatures of 104.9° F, while dogs fed Diet B had average temperatures of 105.9° F. It was also noted that the dogs fed Diet A, with the animal-based protein, required 2/3 cup less food per day, on average, than the dogs on the diet with some plant-based protein. The dogs fed Diet A performed better, ran cooler, and ate less food than the dogs fed Diet B.5

Several nutritional factors may have contributed to the better performance of the dogs on Diet A. Animal-based protein may provide more optimal nutrition for the dogs. The adjusted omega-6:omega-3 ratio can modify the inflammatory process, so that could have contributed to the higher level of performance. Certainly, beet pulp’s role as an excellent, moderately fermentable fiber source could have been a factor due to improved intestinal health. It is likely that several dietary factors combined to support the improved hunting performance. Regardless of the reason, the point is clear: optimal nutrition does affect hunting performance in a positive manner.

Attention to detail is an important characteristic of successful people. Field trial bird dog trainers are no exception. The logic carries over to every aspect of preparing a dog for big events and nutrition is part of the complex equation that leads to achievement. The more we can learn about every aspect of training, conditioning, nutrition, and health care for our dogs, the more likely we are to be successful. Even the little things mean a lot, and this is especially true in performance dog nutrition.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Eukanuba Premium Performance
**Purina Pro Plan
1Chew BP. Importance of beta-carotene nutrition in the dog and cat: uptake and immunity; Iams Nutri Symp; 1998. Pp513-522.
2Chew BP. The role of dietary lutein in the dog and cat; Iams Nutri Symp, 1998, pp. 547-554.
3Kearns RJ. Effect of age and dietary beta-carotene on immunological parameters in the dog. Iams Nutri Symp, 2000, pp. 389-402.
4Altom EK: Effect of Dietary Fat and Physical conditioning on the metabolic and physiological responses of the canine athlete. Unpublished Dissertation, 1999. Page 81.
5Davenport GM, Kelley RL, Altom EK, Lepine AJ: Effect of diet on hunting performance of English Pointers; Vet Therapeutics Vol 2, No. 1, Winter, 2001.
6Davenport GM: Effect of Diet on hunting performance of English pointers; Am Canine Sports Med Symp, Kansas City, 2001.

[Ridgeviewer]

Dog Dr,
That was a very interesting read. Thanks for posting it.
It only makes perfect sense that quality feed, improved digestion, and better nutrition equates top performance.
All else being equal, better nutrition combined with cooler dogs, (which was quite a surprise) run easier, farther, and faster, just like any human athlete. Dogs that are able to cover more ground during a hunt will no doubt run across more birds.
I'd also have to wonder how much difference the cooler body temps made in the dog staying better hydrated. A well hydrated dog picks up scent better.

I have noticed a marked difference in my setter this since swithcing feeds. I have read many times on this board that others have noticed differences in their dog based on what they were feeding as well.
It just seems to add up.......

Ridge

[slistoe]

Feeding Euk Pink bag helps to get a dog revved up. Almost seemed like a caffeine high.

[snips]

104.9 AND 105.9????? How can that be?

[ezzy333]

Brenda,

Would be my guess that because of the extra carbs that produce energy also produce heat when used. That heat raises the body temp for a period.

Ezzy

[snips]

I thought those temps meant doggie hospital. ...?

[phermes1]

That study is very interesting. I always understood that animal-based protein was better than plant-based for dogs.

My next question is this - what was Diet B? I'm really not meaning to knock Pro Plan or Eukanuba or whatever, but all the study tells me is that Diet A was a better food - but if Diet B was some POS food like Ol' Roy, then that really doesn't tell me all that much about the actual quality of the Diet A food, other than it's not as crappy as Diet B.

The results about animal-based protein does tell me something though, and reinforces what we've already been doing in choosing foods for our dogs.

[phermes1]

I thought those temps meant doggie hospital. ...?

When Buffy had mastitis, I was told that a dog is at risk for seizure at temps over 106.
She was up to 106.6. She didn't seize, but she sure as heck got the vet's attention once they read that thermometer!

[ezzy333]

You know we can discuss allof the companies that make the feed, the ingredients they use, and the protien/ fat ratio , etc. but there is only one reason so many people like Pro Plan and that is they get results. Its doing everything for their dogs that a feed can do and they will continue to use it as long as those results remain at the required level.

There are many other feeds that people use and most of them feed their favorite brand because it provides the results they need. I do think there are some that don't really understand that the true test of any feeding plan regardless of the spiece we are talking about is the results that the animal shows. You can't even get a clue of the quality of food by strictly looking at the ingredient list as that tell you little and can be manipulated so easily by the manufacturer.

The only way to tell the quality of your feed is to look at your animals and if they are healthy and doing well you have a good feed. They call hat animal husbandry and can't be learned by just reading books or picking ingredients that you think should be used. Dodfood just like any other livestock feed is a combination of ingredients out together in the proper ratio to provide the dietary needs of your animal. When your dogs are looking and feeling well you can't do any better than that.

Ezzy

[mtjim]

Duke, I've recently done some homework on quality feed as well. The Diamond Naturals seemed great to me untill I found that just about all of my local dealers had dropped them due to recalls, and new formula/ loose stool issues. Keep in mind, I am strictly going by what I was told when I tried to purchase the Naturals. I continued to look at feed and choose Black Gold. You might give the Black gold Ultimate line a look...

Glad to hear that we weren't the only ones having trouble with Diamonds Naturals. We had 10 dogs on Diamond Naturals Large Breed 60+ and about half of them were running loose stools daily.

We switched to Black Gold Plantation Blend and have been much happier.

[dog dr]

My next question is this - what was Diet B? I'm really not meaning to knock Pro Plan or Eukanuba or whatever, but all the study tells me is that Diet A was a better food - but if Diet B was some POS food like Ol' Roy, then that really doesn't tell me all that much about the actual quality of the Diet A food, other than it's not as crappy as Diet B.

my understanding from the footnotes was that diet A was Eukanuba premium performance and diet B was Purina pro plan. i may have misunderstood it though.

[MikeB]

I read the footnotes the same way and would agree with the results knowing the ingredients in both foods.