OK here ya go Greg........
THe hault command is nothing more than teaching your dog to lay down. The proper way is flat on the bellie with the head between the front legs.
It derives from the German DK testing system. It has many uses here and abroad. THe DK's are to lay quietly at your deer stand in hault position, amungst other things. They are expected to do it on command by whistle and or voice.
I use it when I guide, incase the dog is in a dangerous position, At rest time, etc. Our dogs will chase a rabbit trail, if the dog doesnt get a chance to point it, we will hault the dog prior to taking it. It is also a good way to keep a dog quiet when other people or dogs are around.
Phil
Hault Command
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Gregory
Good post Phil and one that I totally agree with in the contex it was presented.
Unfortunately we are talking about whoa here which has a different intent when used by the american hunter/fieldtrialer. To me as well as you,I'm sure. Whoa is whoa,point is point and lay down is just that, lay down. None of the three are related to one another In my opinion....
If I was a guide,I'd train my dogs to lay down as well.I think beauty comes in many forms with a well trained dog.
Best,Greg.
Unfortunately we are talking about whoa here which has a different intent when used by the american hunter/fieldtrialer. To me as well as you,I'm sure. Whoa is whoa,point is point and lay down is just that, lay down. None of the three are related to one another In my opinion....
If I was a guide,I'd train my dogs to lay down as well.I think beauty comes in many forms with a well trained dog.
Best,Greg.
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Decoy
I am pretty sure Phil will agree here,
Halt and Whoa are 2 separate and distinct commands used in entirely different situations.
there are similarities - both are obedience commands requiring the dog to cease all movement, however that is where the similarities stop, the utility of the commands are very different.
Halt is a submissive command requiring the dog to take a submissive posture – it works very well to calm down any type of undesirable behavior (be that for the safety of the dog or merely to keep the dog from stealing a hotdog from the grill while being left unattended)
Whoa is an obedience command used to extend a dog’s natural point indefinitely until such time as the dog is given the proper release command.
Halt is NOT a replacement for Whoa but an additional command that furthers the dog’s ability to become truly versatile.
A finished dog is one that is steady to wing and shot and retrieves (standing on the whoa command while the bird is flushed and shot and when given the release command followed by the retrieve command the dog retrieves the bird to hand) Halt has nothing to do with the traditional definition a finished dog. But in my opinion after seeing social and field utility of the halt command a truly finished versatile should be taught to halt on command.
I think I got .04 worth
Halt and Whoa are 2 separate and distinct commands used in entirely different situations.
there are similarities - both are obedience commands requiring the dog to cease all movement, however that is where the similarities stop, the utility of the commands are very different.
Halt is a submissive command requiring the dog to take a submissive posture – it works very well to calm down any type of undesirable behavior (be that for the safety of the dog or merely to keep the dog from stealing a hotdog from the grill while being left unattended)
Whoa is an obedience command used to extend a dog’s natural point indefinitely until such time as the dog is given the proper release command.
Halt is NOT a replacement for Whoa but an additional command that furthers the dog’s ability to become truly versatile.
A finished dog is one that is steady to wing and shot and retrieves (standing on the whoa command while the bird is flushed and shot and when given the release command followed by the retrieve command the dog retrieves the bird to hand) Halt has nothing to do with the traditional definition a finished dog. But in my opinion after seeing social and field utility of the halt command a truly finished versatile should be taught to halt on command.
I think I got .04 worth
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birddog
This all sounds impressive but why is so much controll needed for just a good all around hunting dog? When out hunting the less said the better. I need not say a word to the dogs. They know there job and do it. Even in most competition you are not allowed to talk to the dog, it would be a disqualification. What is the purpose for this? Please don't say if a dog is running to a road you can stop them with the whoa. A simple "come" command will do the same job.
Let me sight an example: I was pheasant hunting in Kansas. We were going to hunt along side of a milo field. I was asked to take the outside because my dog was not whoa broke and they didn't want the dogs in the milo until we hunted the milo back. I said I can keep my dog out of the milo by just calling " come".
They agreed to let me take the milo edge but lunch was on the line. If Volt got into the milo, guess who would buy.
Eveytime Volt got close to the milo, I simple called, Volt "come" and back he came always hunting his way back. He never once entered the milo or stopped his hunting. After the pass was finished one man said, to whoa would have been better. My reply was, if you think whoa is better, causing us to stop the drive to walk over to bring him back, when all I had to do is call him back without missing a stride of our drive, then on the next drive you can take the inside edge and whoa your dog. We will wait for you while you go and drag him back. He was out numbered and that free lunch tasted real good.
What ever works for one does not work for us all. In my world of hunting I don't see a need for whoa or halt. The dog should be trained to stand it's birds before we take them hunting and the come command when needed to keep controll. In my opinion, some work to hard at training when it can really be easy.
Janet
Let me sight an example: I was pheasant hunting in Kansas. We were going to hunt along side of a milo field. I was asked to take the outside because my dog was not whoa broke and they didn't want the dogs in the milo until we hunted the milo back. I said I can keep my dog out of the milo by just calling " come".
They agreed to let me take the milo edge but lunch was on the line. If Volt got into the milo, guess who would buy.
Eveytime Volt got close to the milo, I simple called, Volt "come" and back he came always hunting his way back. He never once entered the milo or stopped his hunting. After the pass was finished one man said, to whoa would have been better. My reply was, if you think whoa is better, causing us to stop the drive to walk over to bring him back, when all I had to do is call him back without missing a stride of our drive, then on the next drive you can take the inside edge and whoa your dog. We will wait for you while you go and drag him back. He was out numbered and that free lunch tasted real good.
What ever works for one does not work for us all. In my world of hunting I don't see a need for whoa or halt. The dog should be trained to stand it's birds before we take them hunting and the come command when needed to keep controll. In my opinion, some work to hard at training when it can really be easy.
Janet
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Gregory
While I see merit (Can't help it,I'm European descent) to keep the sports from shooting one of my dogs,by training him to lay down on the flush if I was a guide. Having said that ,I also do not believe one has to whoa break a dog in order to have a dog that is steady on birds. I do however teach Whoa,heel and come while wlking the dog down my drive way with out ever having the thought in my mind that I should be able to whoa point the dog at my will, by whoa breaking him,or saving his life for that matter. Whoa to me means nothing other than away to further the dogs compliance .
Around birds, I make sure the dog senses my mood and I make sure I sense his and we both go about our business at hand..
Best.
Greg
Around birds, I make sure the dog senses my mood and I make sure I sense his and we both go about our business at hand..
Best.
Greg
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sudiegirl
janet,
we "practice" hault at the dinner table.... the dogs can remain in the kitchen during mealtime if they hault perfectly. with 6 year old and 2 year old daughters, food is constantly falling around their heads. they are not allowed to touch it until we give them the command to move. if they so much as lick at the food, they are removed from the kitchen and do not get to eat the scraps. not a hunting situation, but one that could be transferred into the field... ie... don't touch those ducks sitting next to your head.
here's an example of the hault command in everyday use (was a hunting situation but just as easily could not have been) that does not involve roads or cars or dogs being shot. we were at the DK solms AZP test this past fall. one of the dogs was particularly aggressive towards this one other dog throughout the weekend... he just did not like him. at one point the handler A(who owned the aggressive dog) and B were conversing and B (with his dog at his heel) walked back to A's truck still in conversation. both handlers forgot that the aggressive dog was sitting in the open back of the jeep cherokee. when handler B approached with his dog, in a split second, the aggressive dog jumped snarling and growling from the back of his truck and a dog fight was in the making. before either dog could really get into any kind of fight, handler B was able to pull his leashed dog back, while handler A (whose dog was NOT on a leash) just commanded HAULT, and the dog dropped to his belly, head between his legs. the fight was over before it had begun. there was not enough room or time to use the "come" command..... since the dog was already "there" at the truck. very tight quarters, no time to spare.
honestly, though my dogs come when i command it, hault is a much more "submissive" command, and its use demands complete and total submissiveness from the dog. it means stop what you are doing NOW and lay there until i tell you to move. it does not mean come and run back to me.... you want the dog to freeze on its belly in the position where it is standing when you give the command. in your "milo" situation, i would not have used HAULT either.... nor would i have used WHOA or SIT or HEEL or ROLLOVER. COME was the command appropriate for the situation. i agree with your point that the less said to a dog in the field the better. my point is this... there is a time and a place for everything; the correct command given to a dog once is better than the wrong one given once.
we "practice" hault at the dinner table.... the dogs can remain in the kitchen during mealtime if they hault perfectly. with 6 year old and 2 year old daughters, food is constantly falling around their heads. they are not allowed to touch it until we give them the command to move. if they so much as lick at the food, they are removed from the kitchen and do not get to eat the scraps. not a hunting situation, but one that could be transferred into the field... ie... don't touch those ducks sitting next to your head.
here's an example of the hault command in everyday use (was a hunting situation but just as easily could not have been) that does not involve roads or cars or dogs being shot. we were at the DK solms AZP test this past fall. one of the dogs was particularly aggressive towards this one other dog throughout the weekend... he just did not like him. at one point the handler A(who owned the aggressive dog) and B were conversing and B (with his dog at his heel) walked back to A's truck still in conversation. both handlers forgot that the aggressive dog was sitting in the open back of the jeep cherokee. when handler B approached with his dog, in a split second, the aggressive dog jumped snarling and growling from the back of his truck and a dog fight was in the making. before either dog could really get into any kind of fight, handler B was able to pull his leashed dog back, while handler A (whose dog was NOT on a leash) just commanded HAULT, and the dog dropped to his belly, head between his legs. the fight was over before it had begun. there was not enough room or time to use the "come" command..... since the dog was already "there" at the truck. very tight quarters, no time to spare.
honestly, though my dogs come when i command it, hault is a much more "submissive" command, and its use demands complete and total submissiveness from the dog. it means stop what you are doing NOW and lay there until i tell you to move. it does not mean come and run back to me.... you want the dog to freeze on its belly in the position where it is standing when you give the command. in your "milo" situation, i would not have used HAULT either.... nor would i have used WHOA or SIT or HEEL or ROLLOVER. COME was the command appropriate for the situation. i agree with your point that the less said to a dog in the field the better. my point is this... there is a time and a place for everything; the correct command given to a dog once is better than the wrong one given once.
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Decoy
Another example of a hunting situation that does not involve safety at all is the following:
Lets say you are waterfowl hunting in a field
the dog goes out on a long retrieve and as he is retrurning - you start working birds -- odds are that the dog will flare the birds
You comand Halt and the dog will lie down motionless among the decoys. Allowing you to continue to work the birds without the dog flareing the birds.
I 1st saw this used by a lab trainer out in Iowa except instead of using "halt" as the command he used "goose". It also transfered well into the phesant field (since labs are flushing dogs) If the dog started to get real birdy (chasing a running bird) and we were going to be too far away for a shot the handler would command "goose" -- he released the dog when we were back in range.
Lets say you are waterfowl hunting in a field
the dog goes out on a long retrieve and as he is retrurning - you start working birds -- odds are that the dog will flare the birds
You comand Halt and the dog will lie down motionless among the decoys. Allowing you to continue to work the birds without the dog flareing the birds.
I 1st saw this used by a lab trainer out in Iowa except instead of using "halt" as the command he used "goose". It also transfered well into the phesant field (since labs are flushing dogs) If the dog started to get real birdy (chasing a running bird) and we were going to be too far away for a shot the handler would command "goose" -- he released the dog when we were back in range.
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birddog
Sorry, but I find the Halt command something one could use for agility, not needed for a hunting dog. Just a relacement word for the stay or whoa command. I for one don't want my dog laying down in the field for any reason. Weither commanded to do so or worse yet on there own. Goose, halt, whoa, all meaning the same thing. To stop! Why not just say stop?
Janet
Janet
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Kurzhaar
Halt
Well, none of my dogs know the command "whoa", they were all trained using "halt". I use it to steady them and control them.
I realize that I am in the minority, but me and my training buddies don't use "whoa". I was taught the following:
The next movement from "whoa" is "go",
The next movement from "halt" is "sit".
Think about it.
Jim
I realize that I am in the minority, but me and my training buddies don't use "whoa". I was taught the following:
The next movement from "whoa" is "go",
The next movement from "halt" is "sit".
Think about it.
Jim
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QCBirddogs
Halt!
Janet,
Gayla here posting under Phil's name.
There is a point to be made about halt that perhaps has not been made directly enough by those who have replied here.
Yes, "halt" has utility as a command in the field, for safety reasons, getting the dog to stop, getting him out of the way for a bit etc. In these situations, yes, "whoa", "stop", "sit" or "down" may also be used interchangably in most cases to serve the same or comparable purpose. All different means to the same end if you will.
However, that is not the true "magic" of the halt command. What sets it appart from the other commands, even "down" is that when you put a dog in the "halt" position, you are not just asking him to obey a command....you are asking him to submit to you.
Dog on belly, head down on the ground between his paws. Think about that position in terms of dog "body language". If you ever doubt how powerful of a message this position is to a dog, just try teaching it to a dominant one. They don't like it, and they don't like accepting it at first.
This command really works on a dog's mind. It gets him back in the mindset that you are in control and he needs to be paying better attention. And it does this without touching the dog, without yelling, without beating and without electricity.
A dog comes out of the halt position with a totally different attitude when you are training. He has "reset" himself and now he is ready to learn from you. None of the other commands accomplish this, if the dog is truely having "one of those days".
It is very difficult to explain halt to someone who has never seen it used. There isn't anything "new" very often to come along in the dog training world. IMHO "halt" is the most under-used, underrated training tool around, even though it isn't "new".
When Phil first came out to train dogs here and saw how I used "halt" and how powerful of a training tool it was because of the effect it had on the dog, he was totally convinced. And Phil is a professional dog trainer and field trialer. Not much around that he hadn't seen before.
Yeah, it sounds a little like "hooey", but it's hard to believe until you see it for yourself. Having this command at your disposal makes for a much nicer, quieter day in the field and at home and makes training much more efficient and effective no matter what you are trying to teach.
It is about control, which you may think doesn't apply to a "good ole hunting dog" as much as say a FT dog. However, it is control on a much more mental and subtle level than just demanding complete obedience from a dog. You are not trying to create a robotic animal. Just simply getting his mind back where it should be without the fuss and muss. And that is just as useful for a competition dog as it is for those good old hunting dogs.
Gayla
Gayla here posting under Phil's name.
There is a point to be made about halt that perhaps has not been made directly enough by those who have replied here.
Yes, "halt" has utility as a command in the field, for safety reasons, getting the dog to stop, getting him out of the way for a bit etc. In these situations, yes, "whoa", "stop", "sit" or "down" may also be used interchangably in most cases to serve the same or comparable purpose. All different means to the same end if you will.
However, that is not the true "magic" of the halt command. What sets it appart from the other commands, even "down" is that when you put a dog in the "halt" position, you are not just asking him to obey a command....you are asking him to submit to you.
Dog on belly, head down on the ground between his paws. Think about that position in terms of dog "body language". If you ever doubt how powerful of a message this position is to a dog, just try teaching it to a dominant one. They don't like it, and they don't like accepting it at first.
This command really works on a dog's mind. It gets him back in the mindset that you are in control and he needs to be paying better attention. And it does this without touching the dog, without yelling, without beating and without electricity.
A dog comes out of the halt position with a totally different attitude when you are training. He has "reset" himself and now he is ready to learn from you. None of the other commands accomplish this, if the dog is truely having "one of those days".
It is very difficult to explain halt to someone who has never seen it used. There isn't anything "new" very often to come along in the dog training world. IMHO "halt" is the most under-used, underrated training tool around, even though it isn't "new".
When Phil first came out to train dogs here and saw how I used "halt" and how powerful of a training tool it was because of the effect it had on the dog, he was totally convinced. And Phil is a professional dog trainer and field trialer. Not much around that he hadn't seen before.
Yeah, it sounds a little like "hooey", but it's hard to believe until you see it for yourself. Having this command at your disposal makes for a much nicer, quieter day in the field and at home and makes training much more efficient and effective no matter what you are trying to teach.
It is about control, which you may think doesn't apply to a "good ole hunting dog" as much as say a FT dog. However, it is control on a much more mental and subtle level than just demanding complete obedience from a dog. You are not trying to create a robotic animal. Just simply getting his mind back where it should be without the fuss and muss. And that is just as useful for a competition dog as it is for those good old hunting dogs.
Gayla
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Kurzhaar
This is a good reference:murphy&me wrote:
So how does one go about training the hault command?
http://drahthaar.com/articles/kohlmann/halt.html
Jim
that is great thank-you very much-
ohaus
Halt command
As a newfer to this list, I enjoy reading your comments. I've raised and trained DD's for years and have hunted a great deal in Europe. The Halt command is an absolute control command and is very much needed in Germany for example where big searching fields do not exist. Failure to control your dog is not a matter of embarassment in the hunt but loss of dog to the highway.
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MaryJane
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Small Munsterlander
I'm struggling with the though that "Halt" is any more submissive than "Down" or that it is the "Ultimate control". I read the link suggested and this is basically the way down is taught in most obediance classes in NA. Down is certainly a more submissive body position than sit or stand (whoa) but the ultimate control might be wishfull thinking. The control part comes from the handler's insistance on compliance and the dog's learning/understanding. Now whether you call it down or halt makes no difference. And as the article states the Germans tend to use "down" more than "halt" (I would have thought that they would have used Germany, which further illustrates the choice of word is moot. It is what the command means to handler and dog. I have been doing utility tests for over a dozen years and have never use nor heard while judging anyone use the command halt. (And that doesn't make it's use wrong). But I have certainly used and heard used down (and even the command "stay" which could be considered redundant). There are great advantages for a dog knowing down/halt for the truly versatile uses of the Continental breeds (and other hunting dogs as well). When bow hunting I want my dog(s) out of sight as much as possible (as well as staying put). When guarding my falcons on a kill I want then relaxed and less threatening to the bird. When waterfowl hunting I want then out of sight as much as possible in the field or marsh. And there are as suggested above many more reasons. (The sit, down and/or stay commands are permissible and not penalized in NAVHDA as I'm sure halt would not be)(but whoa, for increased steadiness, any command to complete a retrieve after the send, any directional command on water are penalized).
There tend to be common uses for commands BUT I'm not sure one is wrong for using whatever word they decide. Yes there are slight advantages for choosing certain words but for the most part it's a handler's choice. Next there will be threads about it's wrong to use a certain series of toots or whistles in a whistle pea or pealess! Bill
There tend to be common uses for commands BUT I'm not sure one is wrong for using whatever word they decide. Yes there are slight advantages for choosing certain words but for the most part it's a handler's choice. Next there will be threads about it's wrong to use a certain series of toots or whistles in a whistle pea or pealess! Bill
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sudiegirl
bill
you may have misinterpreted this thread. i am pretty sure that the topic on THIS forum was not that using a certain word in particular was imperitive (since that would be pretty ridiculous), but that the command itself (and its meaning to the handler and the dog) was and is a very valuable one.
you may have misinterpreted this thread. i am pretty sure that the topic on THIS forum was not that using a certain word in particular was imperitive (since that would be pretty ridiculous), but that the command itself (and its meaning to the handler and the dog) was and is a very valuable one.