Need Veterinarian Input - Spaying a pup

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:54 am

I know there was another thread on this, but, can any of you veterinarians out there tell me exactly what is removed when a spay occurs and if hormones are produced after a spay occurs? Are there different procedures for spaying where one vet might remove 'this' and another vet might remove 'this' AND 'that'?

My vet is pressuring me to spay. When I say pressure, what I mean is that the topic keeps coming up on every visit and the discussions get longer each time. (3x so far)

I am basing my opinions on reading threads here and also this article;

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

I don't want to stir a hornet's nest, but I do want to do the right thing.

Let me end by saying that as of right now, I plan on spaying at around 12 months old. Libby is currently just under five months old.

Thank you.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:23 am

Might be time for you to find a new vet.

midwestfisherman · Post by **midwestfisherman** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:44 am

Karen wrote:Might be time for you to find a new vet.

^^Yeah that^^

I had the same problem with my vet when we first started going there. I told her in no uncertain terms that I would spay or neuter my dogs if and when "I" chose to. She was very pushy about it as well. I told her my dogs were champion bred and that I was developing a breeding program. Next visit, same thing. I told her right out that "her agenda" needed to be put aside and she should see her patients and support them professionally and that wasn't accomplished by pushing the spay and neuter agenda on her customers at all costs. Needless to say we parted ways after that visit.

I stayed with the same practice but started seeing a different vet who understood what I was doing with my dogs and supports me in my breeding program and understands the sporting dog world.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:09 pm

I heard a little of that from my vet, but not so much from the older vet in the office, who has seen my dogs forever, as from the younger one who he brought in a couple of years ago. I brought in an 8 x 10 photo of Spot with "National Champion Willows on the Spot" added across the bottom with a photo editing program. That went in Spot's file. Then I brought in the NC himself, you should have seen the bug eyes on the younger vet. He said he had never seen a GSP that beautiful and in that kind of physical condition. Maybe he was just buttering me up, but I doubt it, he seemed kind of in awe. The questions now, are when am I going to breed next, and I got a referral the other day from the vet, one of their other clients who has a female shorthair she wants to breed.

Pets and working dogs are two different things. I don't mean to say working dogs can't be pets, cause mine sure are, they live in the house and sleep on the bed. But my vets now understand the difference, and that I keep mine intact for a purpose. Vets love to post pictures of their patients, most have a little bulletin board in their office for that reason. Bring your vet a nice picture of your dog standing on point, or posing for a ribbon at a hunt test or trial. Keep your vet in the loop about what your dog is up to and what you are up to with your dog. Make friends of the vet and don't be defensive or start the rant about "that's what they must teach at vet school these days", you will get what you want.

A few years ago Spot's mom had cancer, the vet did a wonderful job with her and with my son, who dearly loved that dog. When she began to have seizures, it was after hours, but the vet opened up for us to handle the situation, and my son was able to be present and knew that the decision to put Reba down at that time, was the right one. That is what my vet is like.

Dr. Daniel Harnett, Long Lake Veterinary Clinic, Long Lake, Minnesota 55356. Official Vet to National Champion Willows on the Spot (and many of his relatives).

Thanks Doc.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:36 pm

to answer your question, a spay is the common term for an ovariohysterectomy. the ovaries and the uterus are totally removed. there shouldnt be any hormone production after a spay procedure, unless a portion of the ovary was left intact (i have seen it happen in cats).

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:58 pm

dog dr wrote:to answer your question, a spay is the common term for an ovariohysterectomy. the ovaries and the uterus are totally removed. there shouldnt be any hormone production after a spay procedure, unless a portion of the ovary was left intact (i have seen it happen in cats).

This vet told me that hormones are still produced as just the uterus is removed.

Thank you. You have answered my question.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:05 am

i suppose you could just remove the uterus, but that definitely isnt common practice.

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:06 am

I plan on inquiring further about that. I suppose it would make sense that if only the uterus is removed that hormones will still be produced, but I need to confirm that is this vet's practice of spaying.

dog dr,

what is you opinion of the article?

If you don't want to post an answer, it's perfectly understandable. I am concerned about the joint issues mentioned in the article.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:36 am

I have seen that article before and i have to say that i tend to agree with the position of the author, based on the science behind his opinion and on my own experiences. Also, based on anecdotal reports from some folks i know that have raised dogs all their lives, as well as my own experience as a vet, I think dogs mature more corectly, both physically and mentally, if they are left intact until they reach puberty. Is this necessary for everybody?? No. is it desirable for athletic or working dogs? Absolutely. The only intact dog i ever fixed an ACL tear on was a GSP that the owner witnessed step in a hole on a retrieve.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:13 pm

Dog Dr,

I give you a lot of credit for that last post.

A few years ago I got into a somewhat intense discussion with my vet at the time regarding early neutering and the impact on the dog's physical development.

What I got from her was the standard line "it doesn't affect their physical development at all" and that I didn't understand the science and my male ego was getting in the way.

I told her I had just spent 7 weeks in winter camp with my pro and 30 of my closest canine friends. Oddly enough we had 4 littermate 18 month old brothers in camp; two of which were intact and the other two had been neutered before 5 months of age. These dogs had been in a virtually similar training program for their entire lives, yet the intact dogs had a greater degree of muscular development, greater levels of drive in the field and broader, deeper frames than the fixed dogs.

I asked her when the last time she watched a litter of dogs grow from pups to adulthood, and had the ability to physically review these dogs and see them in the field at the same. She got pretty quiet after that.

Compare that to my current vet practice who was started by an AF pointer trialer (now since retired) but most of the vets on staff are hunters. They know I trial some, and am around kennel situations a lot. When we get talking about all of this stuff, they've started to ask me what I'm seeing. In their exact words "you see dog populations in detail over extended periods; something we very rarely see". Now, they treat my experiences as anecdotal, which they are, but they realize that being a DVM and reading every piece of published research doesn't give you a completely accurate view of what's going on out in the field.

FWIW,
Dave

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:37 pm

they realize that being a DVM and reading every piece of published research doesn't give you a completely accurate view of what's going on out in the field.

ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!!

I wish alot of my colleagues would realize this. especially when i read what others on this forum post about their vets. I could tell you some interesting stories from vet school about clashes between students who had a little practical experience (from hanging around their hometown vet or growing up on the farm) and the professors in the ivory tower. some people just wont take a second to sit back and consider common sense evidence.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:12 pm

Great thread folks!! I have had two owners of puppies from my last litter call me and tell me their vet told them they should be spaying/neutering their dogs by the time they were 6 months. I told them my thoughts on it, which is to let the dogs grow to maturity first and then get them fixed.
I sent them several links with articles on this and after reading it they agreed with me and one actually changed vets because their vet was determined the dog should be spayed now.
dog dr. I appreciate your opinions and honesty in here and sharing your views on this BB.

Mav.......

Equismith · Post by **Equismith** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:55 pm

Maverick wrote: dog dr. I appreciate your opinions and honesty in here and sharing your views on this BB.

And I too. Many thanks for helping me be better informed.