Diffrence between a DD and a GWP ?

[r nickell]

I read alot of posts talking about the DD not so much so the GWP is that because people are calling Dogs registered as GWP DD's? To my understanding the standards in breeding of registered DD's is more selective then that of registered GWP even though the same breed. But my real question has that selectivness of breeding really made the registered DD a better hunting dog then the registered GWP in general? I understand I have probley opened a can of worms but am interested in hearing what people on this board think.

[dugger13]

use the search button on top and you can read all about what people think the differences our. Both the same in my eyes.

[wannabe]

I read alot of posts talking about the DD not so much so the GWP is that because people are calling Dogs registered as GWP DD's? To my understanding the standards in breeding of registered DD's is more selective then that of registered GWP even though the same breed. But my real question has that selectivness of breeding really made the registered DD a better hunting dog then the registered GWP in general? I understand I have probley opened a can of worms but am interested in hearing what people on this board think.

In general ??? If you are unwilling to do the research and are willing to make a decision based on what people on this board think, then you would probably be better off with a DD. They are bred for tracking and retrieving rabbits, deer, and ducks, and a few of them have been known to point a bird or two. I have owned and hunted over both variations, and my kennels is full of GWP's; we hunt birds.

[windswept]

But my real question has that selectivness of breeding really made the registered DD a better hunting dog then the registered GWP in general?

Obviously this could turn into a huge dog fight. I'll stick to the question you asked in your post.
I have had several DD's but have never had a GWP. I have hunted with a few GWP's but never owned one. I would say that there are some great GWP hunting dogs out there and there are some great DD hunting dogs out there. The breeding requirements of the DD include (among other things) that both parents run in two different tests and achieve a "passing" score.
The breeding requirements of the GWP include that both parents are AKC registered.
With The DD every dog in the pedigree are evaluated and proven effective at the game of hunting. With the AKC GWP this is not likely the case. If we are simply talking about playing the odds I think you would find more great hunters with a random group of say 100 DD's than a random group of 100 GWP's.
Having said all that I would have no problem with someone choosing a GWP over a DD. I would simply advise that they make sure to buy from a reputable breeder that uses good hunting stock in his breeding and has a track record producing good hunting dogs. There are many good GWP breeders out there and finding one shouldn't be a problem.
P.S. My avitar dog is an AKC GSP!

[Birddogz]

I read alot of posts talking about the DD not so much so the GWP is that because people are calling Dogs registered as GWP DD's? To my understanding the standards in breeding of registered DD's is more selective then that of registered GWP even though the same breed. But my real question has that selectivness of breeding really made the registered DD a better hunting dog then the registered GWP in general? I understand I have probley opened a can of worms but am interested in hearing what people on this board think.

In general ??? If you are unwilling to do the research and are willing to make a decision based on what people on this board think, then you would probably be better off with a DD. They are bred for tracking and retrieving rabbits, deer, and ducks, and a few of them have been known to point a bird or two. I have owned and hunted over both variations, and my kennels is full of GWP's; we hunt birds.

What? 90% of DDs are used to hunt upland birds and waterfowl. My DD had 34 different points in 2.5 hours a week ago. She may end up being the best bird dog I have ever owned. The difference between DDs and GWP is very easy. DDs have to be approved by a German breed warden before they are permitted to breed. In order to be able to breed they must pass a series of tests that evaluate the form and function of the dog as a hunter. GWPs have no such limitations. Both dogs have great hunters among them.

[mcbosco]

Just think of a DD as a subset of the greater GWP gene pool. GWP's range from show/companion types to hunting/trial types. In that range on the right of the scale is the DD. I have seen 3 in the past few years and all three were very nice, well bred dogs. One I see pretty often. He had some socialization issues that he is over now.

I wouldn't fall in the love with the whole marketing of German hunting culture unless you like the idea of paying ridiculous private land fees, wearing Lederhosen and funny hats, being told what you can shoot and singing a song after you shoot something, which is required by law.

The Germans do this with shotguns too but I can't recall any German gun winning a medal at the Olympics. Maybe a German shooter with a Perazzi, Gamba, Rizzini or Beretta, but not a Blaser, Kreighoff or Merkel.

If you wanna know about the current state of hunting in Europe I would see what dogs people in Romania, Hungry, Turkey and Bulgaria are using.

A DD is not superior to any other breed if you compare apples to apples. DD's are known for water ability but I can tell you from experience they can't swim NJ water like a Lab, Chessie or even my dog. Size matters here.

[soliver]

Can a dog be both? If an AKC registered dog has passed the tests for the DD can it then be called both a GWP and a DD?

[BigShooter]

Deutsch Drahthaar translates in English to German Wirehaired & Deutsch Kurzhaar translates to German Shorthaired. German dogs were imported to the U.S. decades ago. For both breeds the Americans begin to breed for the qualities they wanted most here in the U.S. Our country is larger, the terrain is more varied and the bird hunting is more diverse. In some areas of North America a larger running dog is more desirable. Pursuing fur bearing game with these breeds has very little popularity in the U.S. compared with Germany and requires a certain amount of sharpness in the dogs Americans no longer required. There is more freedom to hunt in a less structured manner in the U.S. Breeding is less regulated in the U.S. In Germany dogs are tested and need to pass prior to being certified fit for breeding. In the U.S. you are likely to find more variation between lines of dogs in part because the country is so large & people are free to breed for the qualities that work best for them. After many decades breeders in the U.S. believe their GWPs & GSPs are no longer the same as the DD & DK in Germany. There are vastly more GSPs & GWPs than DKs & DDs in the U.S. I think that is a reflection of the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.

[JakeDD]

There are vastly more GSPs & GWPs than DKs & DDs in the U.S. I think that is a reflection of the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.

I agree with this to a point, Mark, but I also believe its reflects the fact that most Average Joes who want to breed their dogs don't want to go through the hoops of getting their dogs certified via a testing system, be it VDD, NAVHDA, etc.

[BigShooter]

JDD,

It is accurate to say the AKC registry doesn't require studs & dams to be tested before any offspring can be registered. However, there are whole other threads (including a very recent one) about which tests or testing systems result in the best dogs being bred & the best way to accomplish breed improvement. I think rehashing that discussion may detract from this thread.

Another side discussion is whether any one can truly know what the average dog in a breed is like. There is fairly large variation between individual dogs in any breed with a population of more than a couple of hundred dogs. Someone show me a statistically valid random sample of the thousands of dogs of any breed (in this case GWPs & DDs) so that I can see the characteristics of the dogs that fall within one standard deviation of the mean. We get opinions here. Some folks have personally seen dozens of dogs of a breed work, fewer have seens hundreds & very few have seen thousands. Even if you saw thousands work during some testing venue how could you comment on all of the characteristics of a breed when the other dogs were never trained by you, never lived with you, etc.? Furthermore we each have our biases & judge things slightly differently. The best comments you get are the ones that stick to "my dogs" or "of the dogs I have seen". The least accurate comments are the ones where someone claims "all dogs of a breed" are _____________. JMO

[adogslife]

In the JGHV different breeds are judged by the same standard and recorded.It has worked for more than a 100 years.
Creating more uniformed,stable breeds. With comprehensive evaluations and breeding regulations a breed benefits.
A breeder in Germany who mainly tracks with his dogs is required to meet the standard of field work.

[JKP]

I'm not going to debate what is better or worse...differences..etc. That goes in circles and does nothing more than get peoples dander up or bore them to tears.

I was in GWPs for 30 years and left the breed. I had some very good dogs. I left the AKC variety because of the lack of focus on the part of the breed....simply put, there wasn't enough dogs of the variety I wanted within the GWP ranks (hard coated, non-white versatile dogs with the size and substance that I need in a dog). There were show dogs, trial dogs, pets/poopsies, NAVHDA enthusiasts, etc....but the group dedicated to the complete versatile dog was very small...and truly good coats were rare. At the heart of it, the AKC is about people, not about breeds...IMHO. Every owner gets to decide what part of the breed and what activity they want to do. When I looked around, I couldn't find but a handful of dogs that met my expectations and most of them were from Euro lines so I went where I belonged...to the VDD and have been happy since.

Leaving the small number of dedicated AKC Vdoggers aside, there is a HUGE cultural difference between the VDD and AKC and that has influenced the partial separation of the domestic GWP from the original breed. Now I have not been as involved with the GWP over the last 10-12 years, so things may have changed. But to me, the GWP is a smaller, slighter, whiter, less well coated, field focused "pointer", influenced heavily by the field trial and bird dog cultures. The ultimate performance dog in GWP AKC circles is the DC....the ultimate dog in VDD circles is the VGP 1 dog with a hard coat, great conformation....that can throw it in puppies. The VDD is a breeding organization....the AKC is an activities organization...and this probably has more to do with the divergence than anything else.

IMO, both groups for the most part are happy with their interpretations. Don't believe for a second that there is any serious interest among GWP circles in the DD. Recently a German bred male (Int CH, UT 1, HZP 190, etc) was brought to the US and offered to AKC bitches at stud. As far as I know, this dog has been used twice in the past year. The internet allows anyone to buy anything from all over the world...only a handful of DD have appeared in GWP programs over the years.

The two groups will coexist quite nicely...but except for some minor crossover, I don't see any real interest of either group in the other.

[JakeDD]

Mark, my comment had nothing to do with which tests or testing systems result in the best dogs being bred & the best way to accomplish breed improvement. I was simply responding to your comment:

There are vastly more GSPs & GWPs than DKs & DDs in the U.S. I think that is a reflection of the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.

This may be partially true, but the easiest route for breeding (unrestricted) will always get more traffic than the more difficult route (testing in whatever venue). That's all I'm saying.

[orbirdhunter]

To me the real difference is in the breeding standard....I personally think that if you took all of the GWP breeders in the us and all of the DD breeders in the US then said, how good is the average dog for hunting....the DD is going to win hands down simply because all DD's are breed to be versatile Hunting dogs, not all GWP's are. NOW, having said that. If you took the top 20 DD kennels in the US and the top 20 GWP kennels in the US that specialize in versatile foot hunting dogs i think the difference bewteen the dogs will basically be nill as far as hunting ability goes.

DD's across the board are breed to a specific standard. GWP's are not necessarily. But, in reality there are a fair amount of GWP's that are bred for the same traits as the DD. Minus the fur hunting for the most part.

Both are great dogs and here in the PNW they are becoming increasingly popular, actually all the Versatile breeds seem to be really taking off. Every year i am seeing more and more DD's, GWP's, PP's and WPG's in the field.

[Birddogz]

To me the real difference is in the breeding standard....I personally think that if you took all of the GWP breeders in the us and all of the DD breeders in the US then said, how good is the average dog for hunting....the DD is going to win hands down simply because all DD's are breed to be versatile Hunting dogs, not all GWP's are. NOW, having said that. If you took the top 20 DD kennels in the US and the top 20 GWP kennels in the US that specialize in versatile foot hunting dogs i think the difference bewteen the dogs will basically be nill as far as hunting ability goes.

DD's across the board are breed to a specific standard. GWP's are not necessarily. But, in reality there are a fair amount of GWP's that are bred for the same traits as the DD. Minus the fur hunting for the most part.

Both are great dogs and here in the PNW they are becoming increasingly popular, actually all the Versatile breeds seem to be really taking off. Every year i am seeing more and more DD's, GWP's, PP's and WPG's in the field.

I think that versatile dogs are going to gain a lot of popularity in the future. They hunt the way many foot hunters hunt. Stay close, and can be used for about anything.

[BigShooter]

Mark, my comment had nothing to do with which tests or testing systems result in the best dogs being bred & the best way to accomplish breed improvement. I was simply responding to your comment:

There are vastly more GSPs & GWPs than DKs & DDs in the U.S. I think that is a reflection of the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.

This may be partially true, but the easiest route for breeding (unrestricted) will always get more traffic than the more difficult route (testing in whatever venue). That's all I'm saying.

JDD, I believe there is a caveat to your post. Regardless of whether one route is easier than another, over the long term buyers will not buy what they don't want or won't use.

[BigShooter]

I think that versatile dogs are going to gain a lot of popularity in the future. They hunt the way many foot hunters hunt. Stay close, and can be used for about anything.

Are you suggesting this is all coming back full circle to where it started? What were breeders looking for when they first brought all of the versatile breeds to this Country? Why did they seek to change what was originally imported? Why are the foot hunter's needs different now than they have been for the past 50 years? What makes you think there have been few or no versatiles available before that hunt the way many American foot hunters hunt?

If the German standards have not changed in the past 50 years and have always produced uniform dogs, how is it the DDs are no longer what they once were so that now they would be a better fit for all American foot hunters?

Lest you misunderstand, I'm not attempting to start an argument but would like to hear the underlying rationale for your statements.

[wannabe]

90% of DDs are used to hunt upland birds and waterfowl. My DD had 34 different points in 2.5 hours a week ago. She may end up being the best bird dog I have ever owned. The difference between DDs and GWP is very easy. DDs have to be approved by a German breed warden before they are permitted to breed. In order to be able to breed they must pass a series of tests that evaluate the form and function of the dog as a hunter. GWPs have no such limitations. Both dogs have great hunters among them.

I have a few questions.

Where did you get your 90% figure?

What is this Germans name?

What were you hunting?

Do you really count points?

BTW, 100% of the DD's that I have hunted over were owned by upland bird hunters, but IMO, the DD test do not place as much emphasis on bird hunting abilities as they do tracking and retrieving.

[Birddogz]

90% of DDs are used to hunt upland birds and waterfowl. My DD had 34 different points in 2.5 hours a week ago. She may end up being the best bird dog I have ever owned. The difference between DDs and GWP is very easy. DDs have to be approved by a German breed warden before they are permitted to breed. In order to be able to breed they must pass a series of tests that evaluate the form and function of the dog as a hunter. GWPs have no such limitations. Both dogs have great hunters among them.

I have a few questions.

Where did you get your 90% figure?

What is this Germans name?

What were you hunting?

Do you really count points?

BTW, 100% of the DD's that I have hunted over were owned by upland bird hunters, but IMO, the DD test do not place as much emphasis on bird hunting abilities as they do tracking and retrieving.

The 90% was an estimation, from my own experience with DD owners. I was running my dog on pheasant before season here in North Dakota. Yes I do count p[oints. I take a clicker counter in my pocket. Just for fun, not really any other reason. That is her record for a 2.5 hour run. I don't know the Breed Wardens name, but I probably could find out for you if you are serious.

[Georgia Boy]

Here we go again, most of the time I don’t even post on these topics but I couldn’t resist. I too started my versatile dog venture with GWP's, but unlike JKP it didn’t take me 30 years to figure out that consistently getting the kind of dogs I was looking for would be difficult. On average, even after you weed out all the pets, show dogs, rally, fly ball, agility, dock dogs and all the other AKC crap I don’t have a clue about there is still a noticeable (on average) difference. If all I wanted was a bird dog I would still have setters, or pointers or GSP's or (etc,etc), but I hunt birds, water fowl, small furred game, varmints, predators, and big game. I especially love turning my dogs out on wild boar, it is action packed with the season open 365 days a year. As long as I am physically able to hunt like that I will never own another breed. When I have to slow down to the yearly hunt or two I will probably get another setter or I might try a little French Brit. Never been much on little dogs but I saw a couple up at Snips I really liked, neat little guys.

[JKP]

BTW, 100% of the DD's that I have hunted over were owned by upland bird hunters, but IMO, the DD test do not place as much emphasis on bird hunting abilities as they do tracking and retrieving.

I have never seen anything that is so simple to understand but that is so often misunderstood. The goal of the VDD is not to create a dog for a specific kind of hunting, but to maintain a breed's instinctive ability to perform many kinds of hunting tasks. We (in the cult) are free to use our dogs for whatever we want...we are not free to ignore what the dogs should be capable of doing. I don't see how anyone could criticize the AKC which fosters unserious game playing, and not accept any breed club that keeps its focus for ALL breeding stock on all the versatile skills that the breed is intended to have.

Here is a pic of two dogs on grouse...the black dog comes from a good small game area of Germany...the liver roan dog was sired by a dog that is exclusively hunted on hogs....pig dog looks OK to me and she honors and backs in pretty much every situation.

[ArcticRetrievers]

Can a dog be both? If an AKC registered dog has passed the tests for the DD can it then be called both a GWP and a DD?

I dont know if this was answered but to make it easier, a DD can be registered as a GWP, but a GWP cannot be Reg'd as a DD (from my understanding) so you can take a dog from the VDD-GNA and reg. them with the AKC, and you would probably have a VERY nice dog, both in form and function. but not the other way around, since the VDD-GNA is looking for uniformity in its registrants...

another thing that separates the 2 is that DD's are NOT permitted to breed until they have passed a series of hunting tests as well as achieving passing scores on Form/Coat, as well as being HD free... and IMO that makes for a more consistent breeding, however a GWP with a CH amd a MH or FtCH with passing hip scores, could be considered on Par with your AVG. Breeding DD.

[JakeDD]

JDD, I believe there is a caveat to your post. Regardless of whether one route is easier than another, over the long term buyers will not buy what they don't want or won't use.

Interesting. If that's the case, we must have more fur and feather hunters in the US than we did 50 years ago considering the # of DDs produced and sold each year in the US is on the rise (as well as other VDog breeds). Either that, or more people are recognizing the value of lines coming from a proven testing organization, and they're willing to pay more for it as well as investing their time/effort into participating in testing organizations, too.

[JakeDD]

BTW, 100% of the DD's that I have hunted over were owned by upland bird hunters, but IMO, the DD test do not place as much emphasis on bird hunting abilities as they do tracking and retrieving.

wannabe - ever observed a VGP? True, bracework/honoring is not part of the field portion, but steadiness to WSF is critical to the test. If your dog breaks and you can't stop them, your dog will not prize, making it ineligible for a DGStB number (German registry #, not to be confused with ZR #, which every registered puppy gets). There are more retrieving events in VGP than field events, but the field piece is just as critical to passing/failing the test.

[adogslife]

Americans are more concerned with what happens before the shot and euopeans are more concerned with that happens after the shot. Recovery of game in many countries is paramount. A hunt will halt until shot game is retrieved. Americans are(appear to be)
more concerned with looks and style than the actual recovery of game.I have seen many hunters give up on shot birds.
One hunt we spent 1/2 hour on a wounded pheasant , the dog did find it and we continued on.

[JKP]

Let me start again by saying that serious people make serious dogs and these people are to be found in various organizations.

Americans are more concerned with what happens before the shot and euopeans are more concerned with that happens after the shot.

Not really...better said the Euro culture is AS concerned with the work after the shot as before the shot. Germans hunt in large groups for the most part..dogs that don't have manners on game are not invited back. Having a dog that points, backs, retrieves reliably, is responsive to handling, works well with other dogs... is the best ticket to be invited to a lot of good hunting. Remember, all hunting is private in Germany, so invitations are important.

There are vastly more GSPs & GWPs than DKs & DDs in the U.S. I think that is a reflection of the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.

I assume you mean domestically....are there more GWP when we compare apples to apples...when you take out the show dogs, pets, CH/JH, etc and look at the seriously bred working dogs? I'm not sure. Worldwide, the DD in Germany and the World Federation dwarfs the AKC Wirehair. Alone in the VDD 3000+ puppies are bred every year...I don't know how much in the other 13 countries.

Another thought...if we believe that breed organizations and recognition of achievement influence the direction of a breed,,,lets consider the difference between the two premier breed club events. The GWPCA holds its Nationals every year and the vast majority of funds and effort will be spent on 3-4 dog shows and 5-7 days of horseback field trials. Very few dogs will compete in both...many show folks go home after the ribbons have been given. The premier VDD event is the Hegewald, the International Fall Breeder's Test. 200-250 young dogs are tested in the field (on wild game) and water for 2 days and judged individually for coat and conformation. At the GWP event, you will not find a live duck nor will you see a meaningful display of retrieving. The show dogs and FT dogs often hardly resemble each other while in the VDD, the dogs at the show, field and water are all the same dogs. I point out the difference NOT to criricize but to clarify the cultural difference between the two breeds. I have always been baffled by the many GWP trial enthusiasts that have spent decades trying to unravel the versatile genome created by the Germans 120 years ago....in an attempt to get back to the smaller, white field specialist where it all started. Compare he pics of the winners of the National FT classes to those at the Hegewald and you will see what I mean.

Pick what you want...after 40 years, I believe strongly that the future is best for the original breed....and as I said, I find more talented, hard coated, good looking proven versatile dogs from 10 generations of versatile hunting stock and breeding lines in the VDD. After all, we don't have a choice....if you want to breed, the hurdles you have to jump are clearly defined. There is a place for both cultures ... and serious folks will always find appreciation for what they do.

[mcbosco]

I am all for tougher compliance to breed standards. The JRTCA is probably as good a model as your are going to find for any breed of scale.

[Chukar12]

Why are statements made that are unnecessarily inflammatory and a matter of opinion only?

Americans are more concerned with what happens before the shot and euopeans are more concerned with that happens after the shot.

Breeds are man made creations, and I am unaware of any that are indigenous to the U.S. ... Labradoodle maybe, though I guess this is still considered a boutique kind of deal? The American Brittany? Certainly some changes but got its start elsewhere.

The question of differences was answered many times over, we might as well start a forum that discusses why parent A raises a kid to play hockey, parent B raises a football player and parent C raises a band member. While dog owners are passionate and obviously can become myopic enough to espouse opinion as fact, I believe it could get infinitely more soap operish if we started attacking each other’s off spring.

Are you kidding me? Americans are less concerned about recovering game?

[BigShooter]

JDD, I believe there is a caveat to your post. Regardless of whether one route is easier than another, over the long term buyers will not buy what they don't want or won't use.

Interesting. If that's the case, we must have more fur and feather hunters in the US than we did 50 years ago considering the # of DDs produced and sold each year in the US is on the rise (as well as other VDog breeds). Either that, or more people are recognizing the value of lines coming from a proven testing organization, and they're willing to pay more for it as well as investing their time/effort into participating in testing organizations, too.

JDD,

Change is measured by a shift in percentages compared with total populations. If GWPs have increased in numbers at the same or at a faster rate the DDs percentage would either be the same or smaller. I do not care whether the change in percentage is lower, higher or the same, but this type of point is better made using the right yardstick for measuring. I have nothing against DDs or their owners.

Let me try to make this a little more clear for you. If the "easiest route" makes it easier to breed, in market terms we say it is an easier way to increase the supply. I talked about the demand side of supply and demand. Most of us understand supply & demand. The only point made was increasing supply (route traffic) alone doesn't guarantee the buyer will buy more if the customer doesn't want it or can't use it.

Obviously increasing supply can affect prices. Lower prices may draw customers for a while assuming they want the product and there are no competing alternatives for purchase. So if another product is available at some price the customer decides whether the qualities of the alternative are sufficiently similar that they are willing to purchase at a certain price. Over the long term customers will not purchase a product with qualities they don't want or can't use, somewhat irrespective of the price.

Your point appeared to be primarily about supply I was merely attempting to point out there are other market forces in play, i.e. demand. If you want to continue this particular discussion why don't you PM me so readers aren't bored to death.

What may have changed in the last few decades? As a society we are fatter & more out of shape. Presumably this change has carried over somewhat to foot hunters as well. Also the bubble containing us baby boomers means we're in our middle 50s to middle 60s & are no longer as physically adept as we once were. These could be reasons more foot hunters may want a slower or closer working dog. Waterfowl in some areas of the country are at or near an all time high. This condition may draw more hunters interested in waterfowling although the taste of ducks and geese compared with upland game has not changed. None of these reasons support any contention that a certain type of dog has become relatively better over time. They only point out that the demand for certain qualities may have changed over time.

If there has been an increase in the percentage of hunters interested in pursuing the full spectrum of hunts a versatile dog is bred for, than that would tend to drive the percentage of demand for versatiles or DDs & DKs up. I haven't seen any statistics that support this notion, though it also cannot be dismissed without facts.

[Chukar12]

BigShooter

What may have changed in the last few decades? As a society we are fatter & more out of shape. Presumably this change has carried over somewhat to foot hunters as well. Also the bubble containing us baby boomers means we're in our middle 50s to middle 60s & are no longer as physically adept as we once were. These could be reasons more foot hunters may want a slower or closer working dog. Waterfowl in some areas of the country are at or near an all time high. This condition may draw more hunters interested in waterfowling although the taste of ducks and geese compared with upland game has not changed. None of these reasons support any contention that a certain type of dog has become relatively better over time. They only point out that the demand for certain qualities may have changed over time.

We are fatter, and in many areas much..much more cramped for space. Where I live and hunt wild birds in the west we have vast geographic differences. In the Ca farm country where pheasant and waterfowlers prevail you find mostly, labs, flushing dogs and the V breeds. In the desert it is GSP, EP, Brittany and ES unofficially in that order. Many people are confined to bird clubs and big running dogs are challenging for them.

...and doesn't training ability play a part? Big running, high drive dogs trained to a standard of WSF with award winning style, that are force fetch trained and can do it consistently are a rarity. Probably for two reasons. 1. It is not easy to do, while training a dog to please us in the way we hunt if we are willing to invest time in a partnership with the dog is not so difficult. 2. People just want to kill birds and have their dog be a part of it. Their goal is birds in the bag and not so much a pinnacle in a breeding and training program.

[Birddogz]

FTs have been the primary test for American dogs. Not many people hunt on horseback, so I think that people are simply looking for a little less octane. A "stickier" dog. That is what people comment on when they hunt with my dog. They are amazed how she handles in silence. That is why I think the versatiles will gain popularity.

[Steve007]

The show dogs and FT dogs often hardly resemble each other

"Often" is of course a relative term, but, broadly speaking, this is a false statement, based no doubt on prejudice and bias rather than recent (or any) extensive objective observations at both trials and conformation events. When have you attended these, how many and for how long? You are entitled to your opinions, but not to be factually incorrect. Or perhaps you have your breeds confused and are thinking of Irish Setters.They are the red ones.

[JakeDD]

Mark - I haven't studied economic theory since my college days, but I am still quite aware of supply/demand principles at work in the marketplace. Again - your original comment stated you believe there are "vastly more more GSPs and GWPs" in the US because that reflected "the qualities desired in their gun dogs by the majority of owners in the U.S.". I simply disagree, or believe that statement to be incomplete. AKC recognized GSPs in 1930 and GWPs in 1959 - heck, JGHV hardly existed in the US 25 yrs ago! With a 25 yr head start and no breeding restrictions, the easier/cheaper/faster method supplied the market to meet that need. IMO, that resulted in "vastly more" supply from AKC when access to the "tested competition" barely existed in the US. BTW, I have no problem with that - I just don't think it's a reflection of desired qualities only.

To address the question of the original poster:

"has that selectivness of breeding really made the registered DD a better hunting dog then the registered GWP in general?"

I would argue no, not quality, but consistency of quality. One breed is not "better" than the other - that's very subjective and depends on what traits you specifically value - but the odds of getting a dog with strong hunting drive and abilities *seems* to be better coming from any organization where testing is required and I applaud those who take the time to really learn what they have in a dog (whatever venue you choose) before deciding to breed it.

Just my $.02

Now, it's off to train my fur-lovin' no-bird-huntin' fleabag who barks with a German accent.

[adogslife]

Why are statements made that are unnecessarily inflammatory and a matter of opinion only?
Are you kidding me? Americans are less concerned about recovering game?

Not inflamatory. Just observation. Never been to a field trial. Do they place dogs based on style,a judges preference? Why is a 12:00 tail set an important ingedient in breeding?How many field trials are there where retrieves are mandatory? Isn't getting around the course clean the objective, does this includ a retrieve? Aren't field trial results used by a large number of people when decideing on a pup?
Just curious.

[Chukar12]

adogslife

Not inflamatory. Just observation. Never been to a field trial. Do they place dogs based on style,a judges preference? Why is a 12:00 tail set an important ingedient in breeding?How many field trials are there where retrieves are mandatory? Isn't getting around the course clean the objective, does this includ a retrieve? Aren't field trial results used by a large number of people when decideing on a pup?
Just curious.

...sigh
BDC, NSTRA, NAVHDA always retrieve
AKC sometimes
Wild bird venues avoid shooting birds
Some argue that you add an element of shooting ability to a contest meant to measure a dog ( what if two dogs have 1 find each and the gunner misses one and hits on the other 1 dog retrieves and 1 doesn't)

Yes style, a judges preference, because people including me (who doesn"t own a dog with a long tail) like a 12:00 tail, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, most people use FT credentials in picking a puppy you may wish to review a post I started a couple of weeks back it verifies that. Why? Because despite a number of real built in flaws and perceived ones; those who are most passionate about field performance and most willing to commit the time and work on a broad scale rather than an individual agenda have made the rules to fit things as they see them and it is the best standard thus far for measuring ability in a broad enough scope to be appropos.

[nooblet]

For what it's worth, I'll chime in with my two cents.

I recently (about a year ago) purchased my first gundog. My decision came down to a pudelpointer, a dd and a griff. The griff dropped my list because it is an AKC dog - the gwp never made my list for the same reason. As another poster said - I chose my breed because I wanted a better chance at getting a good, instinctive hunter. You never know what those AKC folks do - they may be more concerned about chest drop than nose or instinct. Not a chance I was willing to take with a 1k + dog. Basically I looked at what happend to the poodle (a duck dog by nature) and I wend the other direction.

On another note, I dont think most people, even those with gwps knows what a dd is - so I'm not sure the argument regarding the numbers of the two breeds (and I use that term loosly) holds any water.

[BigShooter]

JDD,

Let me simply say I do not buy the theory that the sole reason more DDs were not aquired by buyers is because the market was unwilling & unable to supply an unmet demand for DDs at an acceptable price to the consumer.

I am a little surprised that you reject the notion that individuals select breeds and individual dogs based upon their qualities.

[BigShooter]

Someday I might own a DD or DK but as was said in the "Gladiator" movie ... not yet .... not yet.

[mcbosco]

"You never know what those AKC folks do - they may be more concerned about chest drop than nose or instinct. Not a chance I was willing to take with a 1k + dog. Basically I looked at what happend to the poodle (a duck dog by nature) and I wend the other direction"

I think the Brittany people, as well as some others, would disagree with you on that point. Britts have achieved amazing things in multiple venues on a scale larger than any other bird dog. Many of the rarer breeds here have done it on a much smaller scaler. Blue ribbons and birds are not mutually exclusive.

What you say is the trademark comment of breeders that can't or won't manage both aspects of breeding excellent dogs.

As for Poodles, I don't see anything in today's Standard Poodle that suggests it can't be an effective duck hunting dog. I see them all the time swimming and retrieving in pretty tough coastal water. They are just as athletic as the best dogs in the sporting group and probably smarter than all of them, and that is the rub, because they are more difficult to train generally. Poodles are just out of fashion as hunting dogs here.

Just Google "hunting poodles"

[ACooper]

The 90% was an estimation, from my own experience with DD owners. I was running my dog on pheasant before season here in North Dakota. Yes I do count p[oints. I take a clicker counter in my pocket. Just for fun, not really any other reason. That is her record for a 2.5 hour run. I don't know the Breed Wardens name, but I probably could find out for you if you are serious.

I truly wish I had access to that many wild birds! Now that is how you make a bird dog!

[BigShooter]

Chukar12,

Whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with your posts, in my opinion, the body of your work (posts) indicates an eloquence expressed in the written word few if any of us on this board can equal.

[BigShooter]

Coop,

Four generations of my family were born in ND, including our oldest son. As others have said on this board, I've hunted wild birds for nearly 50 years and it has been a true priviledge to be able to pursue upland birds, waterfowl, cranes & big game in ND. We virtually always hunt through the last weekend of the season, whatever the weather conditions. Regardless of the breed I've never had a dog quit on me yet. Hunting companions have had to pull labs from the bird fields on very warm days because they were overheated, but that's it. We're lucky in this Country to have so many fine breeds and fine dogs to chose from to accompany us afield. Presently I'm full up with dogs of my current breed of choice but I could easily see myself happily hunting wild birds behind a quality dog of nearly any of the serious gun dog breeds. As many on this board have pointed out we need to stick together to preserve our right to continue to pursue the wonderful hunting heritage that has been passed along by so many generations.

[Birddogz]

The 90% was an estimation, from my own experience with DD owners. I was running my dog on pheasant before season here in North Dakota. Yes I do count p[oints. I take a clicker counter in my pocket. Just for fun, not really any other reason. That is her record for a 2.5 hour run. I don't know the Breed Wardens name, but I probably could find out for you if you are serious.

I truly wish I had access to that many wild birds! Now that is how you make a bird dog!

I wish you could too. It is truly amazing. The biggest thing I see is the increase in prey drive. Wild birds seem to spark the primal drive in a dog like no other. My DD has become a bird finding machine in 3 weeks. She was good before, but now it is off the charts! A dog that is exposed to this many birds is really allowed to become the bird finding machine that their genetic code allows. It is a wonderful feeling. In NE my dogs were exposed to a great number of birds, but ND is even better. Come out if you can.

[fuzznut]

These conversations are always a lose/lose proposition.
Those that refuse to look at an akc dog just because it is an akc dog.....there is not more to say about that. Enjoy the view with those blinders on.

Marketing is marketing.......remember back in the late 50's when the gray ghost was the Super dog of the future? They brought in some truly big bucks, they were special, they were difficult to get.

The american version of the breed can be very different than it's German import counterpart, or you may not be able to tell them apart. Both are good retrievers, both like water, both are very trainable, both can be hard headed one man dogs. Yes, here you need to do some homework to make sure the dogs behind a puppy have done what you want a dog to do, but it's no different than the German dogs. If pointing birds is very important to you, question the breeder about the pointing instinct in the pedigree. If tracking is important, ask about it. If water work is high on your list, etc., etc., etc.

Good intelligent breeding and breeders are no more common in Europe then here. Good dogs are good dogs no matter where they were born, or no matter who they are registered with.
As with anything else, ask questions. Just because a dog is imported from it's homeland, doesn't make it special, just makes it an import.
Fuzz

[ACooper]

I hope you fellas never take for granted what you have up there. And Birddogz if you are serious I may just be on my way this fall!

[BigShooter]

It's only about 1045 miles, 16 hrs & 38 minutes of drive time from Cashion to Garrison where Birddogz said he currently resides. Garrison is one of those small, two doctor towns of about 1300 people. The Garrison Dam across the Missouri River creates the enormous Lake Sakakawea that at times has some pretty good fishing for stocked salmon up to 15 pounds or better.

I know I'm off subject but because ND is so far north, the pheasants in ND can get almost wiped out by one bad winter followed by a cold wet spring with poor nesting conditions. The pop. takes years to recover. The last time that happened was in 1997. Because of a bad winter and spring a few years ago bird numbers in ND are still down from what they were four years ago. The young, dumb pheasants get taken out pretty fast during the first two to three weeks of each season so if you're going don't wait until Christmas vacation.

[ezzy333]

These conversations are always a lose/lose proposition.
Those that refuse to look at an akc dog just because it is an akc dog.....there is not more to say about that. Enjoy the view with those blinders on.

Marketing is marketing.......remember back in the late 50's when the gray ghost was the Super dog of the future? They brought in some truly big bucks, they were special, they were difficult to get.

The american version of the breed can be very different than it's German import counterpart, or you may not be able to tell them apart. Both are good retrievers, both like water, both are very trainable, both can be hard headed one man dogs. Yes, here you need to do some homework to make sure the dogs behind a puppy have done what you want a dog to do, but it's no different than the German dogs. If pointing birds is very important to you, question the breeder about the pointing instinct in the pedigree. If tracking is important, ask about it. If water work is high on your list, etc., etc., etc.

Good intelligent breeding and breeders are no more common in Europe then here. Good dogs are good dogs no matter where they were born, or no matter who they are registered with.
As with anything else, ask questions. Just because a dog is imported from it's homeland, doesn't make it special, just makes it an import.
Fuzz

This post should hang on the hallowed walls of Dog Breeding Hall of Fame. In a few words it pretty well covers all aspects of dog breeding and takes out most of the factious info that comes about when people start trying to justify their claim that one breed, one breeder, or even one country is better than all of the rest.

Ezzy

[Doughboy]

Being new to the forum, this has been a good topic for me to read as I have been looking at the DD and/or GWP for the last couple of years (neither of which I have yet(I said yet)) and I have done a lot of research it is interesting to see what other people think. I don't know if I know more now or if I am more confused, but thanks all the same.

By the way Bigshooter, I will be heading north in late October to hopefully shoot some of those young, dumb pheasants near Lake Sakakawea for the first time. Having grown up along the Missouri river it will be interesting to see what the country looks like farther north. Plus the friend I am staying with works for the ND game and parks so I am lucky that way too.

[BigShooter]

Doughboy,

It's pretty nice to have a friend that not only is willing to tell you where you can go ( ) but is willing to be your guide as well.

You'll have fun I'm sure!

[JKP]

Good intelligent breeding and breeders are no more common in Europe then here. Good dogs are good dogs no matter where they were born, or no matter who they are registered with. As with anything else, ask questions. Just because a dog is imported from it's homeland, doesn't make it special, just makes it an import.

So Dual, how many times have you been to Europe and visited GWP kennels. You are a woman of means so this wouldn't be a hardship. Fact is you see the two breeds as different but are unwilling to say it...as do a great many GWP breeders....their lack of interest for the past 50 years in the Euro dog clearly illustrates that they also feel the two registries have different dogs. You find the dog you need....and the two interpretations of the breed give the public a choice..and that can't be bad.

I have always said look at the people first...then the dogs. Breeders make the decisions, no matter what the organization so Dual's statement is right on as far as I am concerned. But when you say this, you also have to mention, that breeders of GWP get to decide what is serious to them...dog shows?, field trials, water work or no water work? groomable "fluffcoats" or working hard coats? or all the above. ALL DD breeders agree to put proof of ability first, in the field, water, tracking, retrieving, etc and to publish all findings/results for all to see and read...and soft coated dogs don't become champions of anything. Without proof af ability, you can't breed "pretty"....finding birds isn't enough....a callback retrieve in the short grass is not recovering lost game... These are two different cultures that, as Dual has admitted, have led in good part to different versions of the breed.

I have always thought that the health of a breed is evidenced by the size and quality of the performance breeding stock. We all have to admit that the versatile dog concept is more involved and can be very exasperting, especially when you throw in the need for a quality wire coat!!! For a versatile working dog enthusiast, the AKC GWP is difficult to navigate....which FT kennels have strong retrieving instinct....which show dog kennel produces consistent strong search....which pet breeders breed for trainability....???? This is the dilemna...and why 12 years ago I chose to leave the GWP. The number of GWP kennels committed to the versatile concept and owned by hard core hunters (because testing is not enough) is small.

There are some wonderful GWP out there...but way too few and I hear all the time from serious breeders about the difficulty in finding good stud dogs, especially with hard working coats. IMO this is the result of the splintering of the breed into "activity" groups rather than an agreement by all to work on shared priorities. The VDD is about breeders accepting those shared priorities....no one strays off to the show ring or claims greatness because of run and point in front of the horse....these things are not enough.....you have to present it all to get any respect.

Is the VDD perfect?.....heck no!!!...overengineered? perhaps....difficult?...absolutely!!!.... have a lot of dogs that I am personally not interested in?...yes. But with 3500 puppies every year, ALL bred on the basis of performance, ALL evaluated for coat/conformation, ALL breeding stock being tested/evaluated....decades of published records.......finding good numbers of my "style" of dog is relatively easy....and I don't have to wonder if the show dog's in the pedigree will go find ducks.

My comments are not meant to put any breed down.....quite the opposite, I have a great foundness for the 25 years I spent in the GWP. But the two camps are different, influenced by different prioities to a large extent and that does result in a difference in dogs. I would wish for my friends in the GWP that more folks would commit their energy to hard coated working dogs. More than anything, the differences are a result of AKC membership, which is more about an activity for everyone than keeping working breeds on target.