Barrel Alternatives
Barrel Alternatives
I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.
- Ruffshooter
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Table, Tail gate, Two saw horses and an 2"X8" plank.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
check out ps pf
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Deets -
I use a modified metal fold up sawhorse for whoa drills. I put a 6" X 30" piece of 3/4" plywood on it by drilling a 5/16" hole in the wood and horse and mount the board withetal washers and a 1/4" carriage bolt that is 1 1/2 or 2" long. I secured the bolt loosely to the sawhorse with an elastic stopnut with plenty of length on the bolt so it could wobble around when the dog moves.
The sawhorse folds up and stows easily. I am contemplating whether or not to add a fixture to the front of the sawhorse to hang a hook and snap above the dog so I can position the dog's head.
RayG
I use a modified metal fold up sawhorse for whoa drills. I put a 6" X 30" piece of 3/4" plywood on it by drilling a 5/16" hole in the wood and horse and mount the board withetal washers and a 1/4" carriage bolt that is 1 1/2 or 2" long. I secured the bolt loosely to the sawhorse with an elastic stopnut with plenty of length on the bolt so it could wobble around when the dog moves.
The sawhorse folds up and stows easily. I am contemplating whether or not to add a fixture to the front of the sawhorse to hang a hook and snap above the dog so I can position the dog's head.
RayG
- birddog1968
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
+1 on Ray's wobble saw horse, seen it first hand, pretty slick and stowable.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Re: Barrel Alternatives
Sounds interesting. Could you post a picture of it?RayGubernat wrote:Deets -
I use a modified metal fold up sawhorse for whoa drills. I put a 6" X 30" piece of 3/4" plywood on it by drilling a 5/16" hole in the wood and horse and mount the board withetal washers and a 1/4" carriage bolt that is 1 1/2 or 2" long. I secured the bolt loosely to the sawhorse with an elastic stopnut with plenty of length on the bolt so it could wobble around when the dog moves.
The sawhorse folds up and stows easily. I am contemplating whether or not to add a fixture to the front of the sawhorse to hang a hook and snap above the dog so I can position the dog's head.
RayG
Thanks
- RoostersMom
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
I use a leash. Second the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish reference. My leash can go with me anywhere. No barrel, no sawhorse. The leash is easily transfered to the field. Simple to build and easy to store.
Re: Barrel Alternatives
I use a 20' check cord ala Delmar Smith. Been using it for about 25 yrs and have had such good luck with it I've had no desire to look at anything else.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Barrel Alternatives
The barrel (and boards, etc.) are used in whoa training and to some extent to style up trial dogs. I do not use any of these methods. I whoa train my dogs on the ground with a piggin' string or pinch collar. I also use these tools to restrain a dog when breaking steady to wing and shot.
The are a ton of very good bird dogs out there - steady as a rock, that have never been formally whoa trained. Wonder how that happens?
The are a ton of very good bird dogs out there - steady as a rock, that have never been formally whoa trained. Wonder how that happens?
Re: Barrel Alternatives
Yep, CC and a pinch collar. Oh, and no verbal command.
- 4dabirds
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Although there are many ways to train a dog , one thing remains constant a dog is motivated to please itself. When a dog remains steady on a barrel or board and is rewarded for it, the complex idea of standing still is is being broken down into a training chain that allows the dog to understand what is expected with out being compelled to do anything. The behavior is learned by the dog on the dogs terms. Once the dog is exhibiting the behavior the command is overlaid. A dog that is not being pressured allows the trainer to work for longer periods of time on a given behavior and when a dog perceives training as a good thing it will perform at a higher level. Although whoa training may not be necessary to have a dog that points, it is necessary to have a dog that stops on command. If a dog has gone through a training regimen and the whoa command is used it allows you to have a mechanism, that the dog understands, to communicate the dog needs to be steady. A rock solid whoa response will allow you to train steady to wing and shot with less pressure on the dog resulting in better style. As far as an alternative to the barrel you might want to try a 24 inch sonotube. This is a concrete form made out of heavy duty cardboard and is a lot lighter than a barrel.
Re: Barrel Alternatives
Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA, at least that I know of. Of course we all use stimulation but just not from an E-collar. I think you will find that even though stimulation from a pinch collar is more severe, it is used quite often and many just use a loop around the flank area and the leash on the collar, or several other ways can be used. But they all stimulate.Deets wrote:I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- postoakshorthairs
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
Re: Barrel Alternatives
I think Rick Smith does. Not sure how it works but the e-collar goes on the flank. I use an e-collar to inforce a known command but never to teach it.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
- birddogger
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
+1. I transition all commands to the e-collar.postoakshorthairs wrote:I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way
Re: Barrel Alternatives
I do too, but I don't use it to teach whoa. I like the whoa post myself and have used that for years. As we all know there is a big difference in teaching and reinforcing.birddogger wrote:+1. I transition all commands to the e-collar.postoakshorthairs wrote:I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
Charlie
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- postoakshorthairs
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
We may be getting lost in semantics but in my view while your transitioning from the check chord to the collar your still teaching until it's mastered. I've seen several guys start with the collar while still using the whoa post in order to transition.
Re: Barrel Alternatives
ezzy333 wrote:Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA, at least that I know of. Of course we all use stimulation but just not from an E-collar. I think you will find that even though stimulation from a pinch collar is more severe, it is used quite often and many just use a loop around the flank area and the leash on the collar, or several other ways can be used. But they all stimulate.Deets wrote:I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.
Ezzy
Okay here's the deal. My dog is whoa broke and steady on point, but he will break on the flush. I want him to be steady through the flush and release on command. I did not use the e coller to teach my dog whoa, but I do use it to enforce whoa. What I want to do is set up a sittuation where I do not have to stimulate him during the flush in order to avoid making him bird shy. From what I understand that is what the barrel is used for. I was just looking for an alternate to the barrel, not a lesson on teaching whoa.
Re: Barrel Alternatives
A narrow board just wide enough for his/her feet and balanced between sawhorses or I used a patio chair. Worked great to teach the concept. The chair wobbled like crazy when they moved around on it and they felt like they were going to fall to their deaths.
Now, breaking on the flush can be pretty easy to fix. All you need to start with is a check cord.
I teach everything with the cord first and then use the e-collar to overlay those corrections and then eventually run them with no collar at all.
Takes patience and some ingenuity if you are by yourself. Try making a stake out of rebar or something that you can push in the ground by your self and wrap the cord around so when you go into flush the bird the dog can make no forward progress.
The whoa is only reinforcement, but in my humble opinion it won't totally fix your issue. What are you going to do when you aren't there adn the bird flushes wild?
Now, breaking on the flush can be pretty easy to fix. All you need to start with is a check cord.
I teach everything with the cord first and then use the e-collar to overlay those corrections and then eventually run them with no collar at all.
Takes patience and some ingenuity if you are by yourself. Try making a stake out of rebar or something that you can push in the ground by your self and wrap the cord around so when you go into flush the bird the dog can make no forward progress.
The whoa is only reinforcement, but in my humble opinion it won't totally fix your issue. What are you going to do when you aren't there adn the bird flushes wild?
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
- birddog1968
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Real easy to do with the collar, just wait till the bird is going away and the dog chasing and tap tap tap tap the continuous button on the lowest setting , on a TT I use 1 the first day and may switch to a 2 there on out. Trick is to keep your mouth shut and just tap with the collar until the dog stops, done correctly he will be stop to flush very quickly. Then its just a natural progression to add steady to the shot. The collar is not going to make him shy of birds if he's only getting stim on the chase.Deets wrote:
Okay here's the deal. My dog is whoa broke and steady on point, but he will break on the flush. I want him to be steady through the flush and release on command. I did not use the e coller to teach my dog whoa, but I do use it to enforce whoa. What I want to do is set up a sittuation where I do not have to stimulate him during the flush in order to avoid making him bird shy. From what I understand that is what the barrel is used for. I was just looking for an alternate to the barrel, not a lesson on teaching whoa.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Re: Barrel Alternatives
I would not use that collar unles syou 100% know what you are doing. I ruined my first dog that way from bad advice. Not saying you are getting bad advice from any of the poster, just saying you should probably fix it with a cord first.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
- birddog1968
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Funny I never hurt a dog with that method......timing is not even crucial....tap on the chase, Key is lowest setting possible. I'll go back and tell my mentor that he's giving out bad advise
BTW he's not fixing anything, he's looking to condition a response.......
BTW he's not fixing anything, he's looking to condition a response.......
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Re: Barrel Alternatives
OK.
It does send a message to the dog that chasing their favorite thing is bad. I have a really smart dog who figured it out and now uses that as an excuse to blink birds.
Bet your mentor never ran into KIT.
Do you want brother, I'm just saying that not every method works in every situation and be CAREFUL before taking advise from someone who does not know your dog.
It does send a message to the dog that chasing their favorite thing is bad. I have a really smart dog who figured it out and now uses that as an excuse to blink birds.
Bet your mentor never ran into KIT.
Do you want brother, I'm just saying that not every method works in every situation and be CAREFUL before taking advise from someone who does not know your dog.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
- birddog1968
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
Nobody can really diagnose anything like that over the internet.....it works and works very well and very quickly if done right.....never seen it cause a blinker. I would question how and on what level the collar was used. have had 8 to 10 month olds STF very quickly.
Fella that mentored me has seen it all....I can guarantee that.
I personally hate checkcords and rarely if ever use one....unless its to just slow a pup down running. I believe you can cause as many problems with a checkcord as with a collar, the collar is just probably faster at ruining a dog in inexperienced hands.
Fella that mentored me has seen it all....I can guarantee that.
I personally hate checkcords and rarely if ever use one....unless its to just slow a pup down running. I believe you can cause as many problems with a checkcord as with a collar, the collar is just probably faster at ruining a dog in inexperienced hands.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
Hunters Pale Rider
Hunters Branch Jalapeno
- tailcrackin
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Re: Barrel Alternatives
If you are fair with the dog, it will be fair with you. That is a huge "key" in the work. The checkcord work, is finesse.....sorta like fly fishing, it is a finesse. It takes time for the dog to put two an two together. The ecollar is an extension of the checkcord.....it is a common factor that most havent completed things with the checkcord, and start the ecollar with the dog, and create alot of issues, or problems. Dogs are a creature of habit. The checkcord allows things to be taught and learned, on the dogs table.
I am not a fan of the barrel, just because you have to reteach when you give the dog its footing back. Same with the 2x6. Myself, I enjoy spending the time teaching it in the field, while we are working on things. Hopefully everything works out well for you an the dog. The simplier you keep things, the simplier they are for the dog to understand. Thanks Jonesy
I am not a fan of the barrel, just because you have to reteach when you give the dog its footing back. Same with the 2x6. Myself, I enjoy spending the time teaching it in the field, while we are working on things. Hopefully everything works out well for you an the dog. The simplier you keep things, the simplier they are for the dog to understand. Thanks Jonesy
Re: Barrel Alternatives
I won't use the the e-collar to fix that. I have good reasons. If you want to use it, then that is fine. It obviously works for you. I'm just saying I could send you a dog that it won't work on. She'll fold like a cheap suit using any kind of e-stimulation around birds. Period.
I just want the guy to know and understand that not all dogs are created equally and that he could cause issues down the road he may regret.
I just want the guy to know and understand that not all dogs are created equally and that he could cause issues down the road he may regret.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520