Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Traits of a top knotch trial handler
What in your opinion do the best handlers in AKC, AF, NSTRA, Cover Dog, etc do that the average handler doesn't quite grasp?
What words of wisdom would you expect that they would give to their young protige that would be traveling with them? Do they have tricks that a lot of average handlers dont know?
You hear people talk all the time about great handlers. What makes them great? Why do they place so consistently, with multiple dogs?
I am pretty intrigued by listening to people talk about some of the stories of great dogs and handlers they have witnessed. Thought it might make for some good conversation here. Did the dog make the handler, or does the handler have that much influence on the outcome of the dog?
What would you tell a young handler to do to learn how to be one of the good ones?
What words of wisdom would you expect that they would give to their young protige that would be traveling with them? Do they have tricks that a lot of average handlers dont know?
You hear people talk all the time about great handlers. What makes them great? Why do they place so consistently, with multiple dogs?
I am pretty intrigued by listening to people talk about some of the stories of great dogs and handlers they have witnessed. Thought it might make for some good conversation here. Did the dog make the handler, or does the handler have that much influence on the outcome of the dog?
What would you tell a young handler to do to learn how to be one of the good ones?
Traits of a top knotch trial handler
I think there is a list of things that make good ones good, but something I see and hear again and again is that they have a plan. I was part of a conversation with a retired handler who has been out of it for about 30 years and he could still tell you exactly where, when and why he wanted himself and the dog to be on any course on all of the major AA venues. Talking about course number two on some grounds he was describing how he'd like to collect a dog around 19 minutes, cross the bridge at 22 and just before the judges got there, send the dog. Said dog would be running a big edge, he'd be hitting the whistle and pointing the dog out as the judges cross the bridge.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Willing to adapt and trouble shoot before it happens.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
IMO patience, demeanor, and ability to read a dog. I see guys yell and scream at dogs all the time. But the best handlers I've seen know exactly where the dog is going before the dog gets there, and they seem to have a bond with the dog that doesn't require them to scream at them.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
1) Preparation
2) Timing
3) Cool, calm and collected under pressure
4) Ability to adapt and change plans and tactics midstream in a seamless manner, without anyone even noticing
5) Professional detachment and lack of kennel blindness.
6) Post mortem and review of each performance to look for ways to improve
Of all of these...PREPARATION is BY FAR the thing that sets the top pros apart.
The top pros know every single one of their dogs, their abilities and tendencies and they craft a plan for each dog tailored to the dog, the course and the judges.
They know the courses, like we know our living rooms. They know every bend, every corner, every cut, every place to gather the dog, every place to let a dog roll, every place to hide, every place to show.... They are figuring just where they want their dog...two fields ahead.
The top pros know the judges. They know what they like and what they don't like. They know what to show each judge and what to try and hide.
The top pros know the other dogs, pro handlers and scouts almost as well as they know their own. They know which dogs will back voluntarily and which ones won't. They know which handlers will try to push their dogs and which ones will sit back. They know what the other handler and dog is likely to do in any given situation.
The other thing the top pros have, especially over amateurs is a highly developed sense of timing, They know just how long it takes each dog to heart the command, process it in it's brain and respond. They know just how far from a corner to squall at a dog so the dog has time to look back, see the direction the handler is indicating with their horse and turn... all before they get to the corner.
RayG
2) Timing
3) Cool, calm and collected under pressure
4) Ability to adapt and change plans and tactics midstream in a seamless manner, without anyone even noticing
5) Professional detachment and lack of kennel blindness.
6) Post mortem and review of each performance to look for ways to improve
Of all of these...PREPARATION is BY FAR the thing that sets the top pros apart.
The top pros know every single one of their dogs, their abilities and tendencies and they craft a plan for each dog tailored to the dog, the course and the judges.
They know the courses, like we know our living rooms. They know every bend, every corner, every cut, every place to gather the dog, every place to let a dog roll, every place to hide, every place to show.... They are figuring just where they want their dog...two fields ahead.
The top pros know the judges. They know what they like and what they don't like. They know what to show each judge and what to try and hide.
The top pros know the other dogs, pro handlers and scouts almost as well as they know their own. They know which dogs will back voluntarily and which ones won't. They know which handlers will try to push their dogs and which ones will sit back. They know what the other handler and dog is likely to do in any given situation.
The other thing the top pros have, especially over amateurs is a highly developed sense of timing, They know just how long it takes each dog to heart the command, process it in it's brain and respond. They know just how far from a corner to squall at a dog so the dog has time to look back, see the direction the handler is indicating with their horse and turn... all before they get to the corner.
RayG
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
They have good owners.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Quiet confidence..... I want to see a handler do the job, no more no less. Showmanship is the name of the game but its important to remember this is a gentleman's sport.
Jim
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
They know when to unload a loser.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
I have been told by good pros that the biggest difference between an amateur and good pro is "about one second". I think that fits in the category of timing, anticipation etc. I know through my own development that the better my timing gets, the more success I have in the field. Having the ability to focus and concentrate is important. Someone discussed the success of Jack Nicklaus once and said he had the ability to drop his intensity in between golf shots and ramp it up as he approached his next shot. I believe a good handler has some of those abilities.
Great topic
Great topic
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Along with what to learn
Watch other people with their dogs as in truth Everyone is a great trainer as majority of the people you watch can teach you what not to do or be like
Watch other people with their dogs as in truth Everyone is a great trainer as majority of the people you watch can teach you what not to do or be like
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Good dogs make good handlers. A good handler may get the very best out of a very average dog where a novice might not. It still takes dog power as one can't make a silk purse from a sows ear.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Hard work. It really is that simple. They are not smarter than us (I know many very well), they just work dogs while we rest.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Great handlers have great dogs, and loyal owners. They also have the ability to recognize talent at a young age and make a long term game plan. Even if it means red-shirting the dog for a while to get them right.
Doug
Doug
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Dogs that handle.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
An extra large competitve drive.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Ability to attract & handle owners with the best dogs and the deepest pockets.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Seems to be a lot of sour grapes types of posts in this thread, but this one speaks to the heart of the matter IMONeil wrote:Hard work. It really is that simple. They are not smarter than us (I know many very well), they just work dogs while we rest.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
What do you mean by sour grape posts? I'm not seeing what you're talking about.slistoe wrote:Seems to be a lot of sour grapes types of posts in this thread, but this one speaks to the heart of the matter IMONeil wrote:Hard work. It really is that simple. They are not smarter than us (I know many very well), they just work dogs while we rest.
Seems to me that most of this info is spot on.
Doug
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:What do you mean by sour grape posts? I'm not seeing what you're talking about.slistoe wrote:Seems to be a lot of sour grapes types of posts in this thread, but this one speaks to the heart of the matter IMONeil wrote:Hard work. It really is that simple. They are not smarter than us (I know many very well), they just work dogs while we rest.
Seems to me that most of this info is spot on.
Doug
Dog -
The fact is that, in reality, it IS the willingness of the topnotch trial handler to put in the hours and saddle time necessary to allow all those other things to happen. The hard work gets a dog to the best it can be. That dog then wins and attracts the good owners who can afford to have the trainer buy, train and campaign those topnotch dogs...and win. The willingness to work hard...every single day... is the thing that sets some handlers apart.
Most all the handlers out there on the various circuits have the tools. They can get the job done. And with the right dog, even a stumblebum like me can win. But how many are willing to work, literally, from sunup to sundown, every day, rain or shine, blistering hot or freezing cold, and then spend the rest of the evening talking with owners. That willingness will take the "less than stellar" dog to the next level and that handler will win with that dog...as well as the "star" performers.
There is a saying in the field trial world..."you are only as good as your last win". The top handlers know that very well and they never let up.
I met George Tracy down at the Assunpink many years ago. I knew nothing about trials at the time. He was just pulling in with his rig. apparently there was a trial starting the following day. I was heading out with my hunting dog to run him around and hopefully get him into bird or two. When I got back, it was almost dark. The horses were staked out and I walked over to see what this was all about. I met this stockily built man with bloodshot eyes. After he introduced himself, and complimented me on my dog, he asked me if I had come across any birds because he had a couple dogs that he would like to get into a bird or two before tomorrow. I told him what I had found and where, we shook hands and I left. As I was pulling out to go home, I saw him walking a dog toward the field in the gathering darkness.
The next time I met Mr. Tracy was perhaps fifteen years later, at a trial. Know what I observed? At the end of a very long, very warm day, he was still looking to work dogs when the other handlers were sitting around and...his eyes were bloodshot from lack of sleep....again. There are plenty of reasons why George Tracy was handler of the year, for God knows how many years in a row.... An awesome work ethic is one of the big reasons.
BTW, in case you were wondering, the apples didn't fall too far from the tree. That could be why the first second and fourth place in this past year's Purina points standings was won by a handler whose last name was Tracy. And one of them was a female, who just happened to handle the top shooting dog English Setter of the year. They win because they are good and they work hard. They get the best dogs and best owners because they are good and work hard.
RayG
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Ray-I understand the whole hard work equals good dogs and customers thing.
Still not sure where Slistoe see's the sour grapes.
Doug
Still not sure where Slistoe see's the sour grapes.
Doug
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Ray-I understand the whole hard work equals good dogs and customers thing.
Still not sure where Slistoe see's the sour grapes.
Doug
Stuff like they get the best owners and the best dogs and dogs that handle. That smells a bit like sour grapes to me too.
That stuff is all true...but those things did not occur in a vacuum. There are reasons why they get the best owners and get the best dogs. There are reasons why their dogs handle and don't get lost.
The main reason that many of those things happen...and continue to happen with the most successful handlers, is due to the handlers' work ethic. There are a fair number of folks who have had one or two amazing dogs that were a threat whenever and wherever they were put down. Those kinds of dogs can absolutely MAKE a trainer's reputation. No doubt about that.
However, keeping that reputation over the long haul depends on squeezing the absolute maximum in performance out of every single dog in their string, especially the "good , but less than amazing" ones.
On the day when your "star" gets thrown under the bus by circumstance, you need to have one of your other dogs "step up" if you are going to stay in the money. You don't necessarily need a great dog to win. You do need a good dog that goes with you, stays with you, covers the ground in a pleasing manner and makes no mistakes.
RayG
The thing that really sucks for the up and coming trainer/handler is that there ARE hard working successful trainer/handlers out there in every venue and folks know who they are and patronize them because they know, with them, they have the best chance of success. That means, if the new guy wants to get your piece of the action, you have to work even harder and longer before you can begin to approach their success level. It don't hurt at all to be lucky too. Look at the Purina shooting dog handler of the year statistics. There are dozens of really good trainer/handlers on that list. But only a handful are at the very top of the list and the gulf separating them from all the rest is pretty wide.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Ok. I just figured the hard work was a given. My point is, you need customers with deep pockets or strong loyalty to keep a dog on a pro string, great or not so great. And more than likely that pro is gonna try to get that owner to move that not so great dog on down the road.
Doug
Doug
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Whoa big fella, there are no sour grapes in my comment at all.RayGubernat wrote:
dogs that handle. That smells a bit like sour grapes to me too.
"Dogs that Handle" was meant to state the obvious which you have so long-winded-ly repeated to some extent in your post.
A "Dog that handles" as everyone knows is the result of two things - a capable trainer and a capable handler.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Really Ricky Ticky, you don't see the sour grapes? Get off of it.Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Even if it means red-shirting the dog
Doug
Thanks Ray, you are always so much more eloquent than I.
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
This is exactly where I had hoped that this thread would go. I really do appreciate the insight. The hard work part is true with most any profession or athlete.
I think that the clients with the deep pockets gravitate to the handler and trainer with the greatest work ethic. Who wants to spend a lot of money with anything less than the best they can. Sports team owners do the same with athletes. Microsoft does the same with programmers.
I think that the clients with the deep pockets gravitate to the handler and trainer with the greatest work ethic. Who wants to spend a lot of money with anything less than the best they can. Sports team owners do the same with athletes. Microsoft does the same with programmers.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
From what I can tell sour grapes means to pretend you don't want something that you don't have or can't have.slistoe wrote:Really Ricky Ticky, you don't see the sour grapes? Get off of it.Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Even if it means red-shirting the dog
Doug
Thanks Ray, you are always so much more eloquent than I.
Still not seeing it big boy. Maybe you're just smarter than I am. NOT.
Doug
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Last edited by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Kmack wrote:Whoa big fella, there are no sour grapes in my comment at all.RayGubernat wrote:
dogs that handle. That smells a bit like sour grapes to me too.
"Dogs that Handle" was meant to state the obvious which you have so long-winded-ly repeated to some extent in your post.
A "Dog that handles" as everyone knows is the result of two things - a capable trainer and a capable handler.
Kmack -
FWIW, I completely agree with the proposition that dogs that handle are the result of a capable trainer and handler at least somewhere along the line.
However, by just saying "dogs that handle", it sounded, to me, a bit like that capability just sorta happened with the most successful handlers. I will say that it is certainly possible for an owner with deep pockets to buy a dog with all the necessary tools, including handling, but as I said, I agree that someone, somewhere along the line, did the work necessary to bring that along.
Yeah I can be long winded. That, in all likelihood is not going to change.
Be well.
RayG
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Well said.RayGubernat wrote:Kmack wrote:Whoa big fella, there are no sour grapes in my comment at all.RayGubernat wrote:
dogs that handle. That smells a bit like sour grapes to me too.
"Dogs that Handle" was meant to state the obvious which you have so long-winded-ly repeated to some extent in your post.
A "Dog that handles" as everyone knows is the result of two things - a capable trainer and a capable handler.
Kmack -
FWIW, I completely agree with the proposition that dogs that handle are the result of a capable trainer and handler at least somewhere along the line.
However, by just saying "dogs that handle", it sounded, to me, a bit like that capability just sorta happened with the most successful handlers. I will say that it is certainly possible for an owner with deep pockets to buy a dog with all the necessary tools, including handling, but as I said, I agree that someone, somewhere along the line, did the work necessary to bring that along.
Yeah I can be long winded. That, in all likelihood is not going to change.
Be well.
RayG
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
mlittle wrote:This is exactly where I had hoped that this thread would go. I really do appreciate the insight. The hard work part is true with most any profession or athlete.
I think that the clients with the deep pockets gravitate to the handler and trainer with the greatest work ethic. Who wants to spend a lot of money with anything less than the best they can. Sports team owners do the same with athletes. Microsoft does the same with programmers.
Bingo!!
Training and handling bird dogs for competition IS hard work. Always has been and always will be. No question about it. I am not, for one second saying that there are trainers who are not doing the hard work necessary to bring their dogs along. If they didn't, they wouldn't last a season.
This, like most everything, is a matter of degree. All things being equal, the athlete who is willing to spend the extra hours in the weight room and on the running track and who is willing to say, "No Thanks" to the invitation to a fun night out because they need to rest and prepare...is going to be successful. All things being equal....
When things are not equal, the truly gifted athlete who has the very best training facilities at their disposal, AND a burning desire to do whatever it takes to stay on top...is going to be almost impossible to beat.
The consistently successful field trial handler is not much different from that athlete.
RayG
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Are you sure it isn't because they are cheaters and have more money to spend?RayGubernat wrote:
The consistently successful field trial handler is not much different from that athlete.
RayG
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Oh Boy....heeeeeer we go!!slistoe wrote:Are you sure it isn't because they are cheaters and have more money to spend?RayGubernat wrote:
The consistently successful field trial handler is not much different from that athlete.
RayG
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Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Scott -slistoe wrote:Are you sure it isn't because they are cheaters and have more money to spend?RayGubernat wrote:
The consistently successful field trial handler is not much different from that athlete.
RayG
That is what I would call a high speed troll. You sure are looking to sink a hook into a big one!!
RayG
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
Troll Just thought I could help a few folks understand something.RayGubernat wrote:Scott -slistoe wrote: Are you sure it isn't because they are cheaters and have more money to spend?
That is what I would call a high speed troll. You sure are looking to sink a hook into a big one!!
RayG
Re: Traits of a top knotch trial handler
I was just having a little fun, no animosity intended. Take care...RayGubernat wrote:
Kmack -
FWIW, I completely agree with the proposition that dogs that handle are the result of a capable trainer and handler at least somewhere along the line.
However, by just saying "dogs that handle", it sounded, to me, a bit like that capability just sorta happened with the most successful handlers. I will say that it is certainly possible for an owner with deep pockets to buy a dog with all the necessary tools, including handling, but as I said, I agree that someone, somewhere along the line, did the work necessary to bring that along.
Yeah I can be long winded. That, in all likelihood is not going to change.
Be well.
RayG