Difference between a 1hr vs 30 minute dog

[RyanDoolittle]

Curious about the differences between a 30 minute trial dog and a 1 hour trial dog.

Let's try and keep it "even" and say both are shooting dogs and both are Horseback trial dogs. Specifically looking at the Shorthaired Pointers but I am sure this could relate to setters and pointers as well.

[ezzy333]

The biggest difference is in how you have conditioned them

[fuzznut]

Conditioning is certainly important, but some dogs simply don't have the heart or bottom to do it all for 60 minutes.

[Neil]

Genetics/breeding has played a role, 30 years ago, outside the pointer there were few honest 1 hour dogs. Helping also are conditioning and nutrition. Still, often less than half are still hunting at 59 minutes. You add high heat or cold rain and it is less.

[hustonmc]

The dogs gait has a lot to do with it as well. Some of your 30 minute dogs are a pleasure to sit back in the saddle and watch. But the way that dog has to go about his business to catch your eye, can't keep it up for longer then 30 minutes. Now this same dog could probably run for an hour or hunt for 4hrs, no problem. But just not look the same as he does for 30, not have that snap that catches your eye.
Now those true hour dogs, they can keep it, they have the gait. Triple that with a 3hr dog and it becomes obvious. So yes condition goes a long way. But the true class 1hr dog just go about it differently.

[Sharon]

deleted as it was a stupid thing to say....

[RayGubernat]

There are a bunch of dogs that can run a very nice, animated race for a half hour with a modicum of conditioning. The number of dogs that can keep up that snappy, animated ground-attacking gait drops off dramatically as the clock ticks on.

Even with rigorous conditioning, there are realtively few dogs that can maintain a high level of animation and a snappy, bold, forward race for a full hour. Add heat that reaches upwards of 75 degrees or higher and the number of dogs that are still going hard at 55 minutes is a small fraction of the starters. It takes a bunch of different endurance characteristics such as heat tolerance, thirst tolerance, pain tolerance for a dog to be able to keep on at anything close to that starting pace. Dogs that can do this, simply do not know the meaning of the word "quit".

It also takes a superior nose, because the dog has to be able to scent game while going at near full speed in hot, dry, sometimes dusty conditions. Shooting dogs are expected to find birds...multiple birds. An all age dog can get by just fine with one find and a big race in an hour. But, one find in an hour ain't gonna cut it very often in a high level shooting dog stake. It usually takes a strong race, start to finish, and multiple high styled finds to earn a placement.

Cold, wet and especially muddy conditions can be even worse than the heat as far as sucking the life out of a dog. Running in the mud is about as tough as it gets.

RayG

[RyanDoolittle]

Thanks Ray, thats more along the lines of an answer I am looking for. With 30 minutes you have half the time to show your dog.

What is the difference in the ground race of the 2? Is the 30 minute dog a faster animals because it only has to run half as long?

I guess what I am looking for is more along the lines of the difference between an AKC 1/2 hr trial dog and a NGSPA or GSPCA 1 hr dog.

I have listened to a few pod casts on Strideaway about getting a 1 hr championship dog ready for the 3 hour Ames. Although they all have their methods the common idea seems to be trying to convince that 1hr balls to the walls dog to slow it down to a speed they can maintain for 3 hours.

So is this the case with the 1/2 vs 1 hr dog? Is the 1/2 dog a faster snappier dog?

What would you expect to see in the 1/2 hour stake and what do you want to see in the 1hr stake?

[Grange]

I think going at trial speeds for 30 minutes isn't that hard for many trial dogs that get some regular exercise, but to go for an hour requires some training. I notice it most when after a long winter where the dogs don't get as much exercise as when there's not a bunch of snow on the ground I need to work a dog's stamina back up to being able to run for an hour without any drop in performance. Toss in higher temperatures and conditioning for an hour is a must for most dogs.

[Sharon]

Thanks Ray, thats more along the lines of an answer I am looking for. With 30 minutes you have half the time to show your dog.

What is the difference in the ground race of the 2? Is the 30 minute dog a faster animals because it only has to run half as long?

I guess what I am looking for is more along the lines of the difference between an AKC 1/2 hr trial dog and a NGSPA or GSPCA 1 hr dog.

I have listened to a few pod casts on Strideaway about getting a 1 hr championship dog ready for the 3 hour Ames. Although they all have their methods the common idea seems to be trying to convince that 1hr balls to the walls dog to slow it down to a speed they can maintain for 3 hours.

So is this the case with the 1/2 vs 1 hr dog? Is the 1/2 dog a faster snappier dog?

What would you expect to see in the 1/2 hour stake and what do you want to see in the 1hr stake?

I must be missing something or have an exceptional dog. My setter went full out for an hour, no difference between a half hour and an hour....rests at bird points.... in walking stakes not horseback.( don't participate now in trials.)

[dan v]

So is this the case with the 1/2 vs 1 hr dog? Is the 1/2 dog a faster snappier dog?

What would you expect to see in the 1/2 hour stake and what do you want to see in the 1hr stake?

Many 30 minute dogs appear to have a built in clock....they go all out knowing they can go all out for 30 minutes. Drop them in to an hour stake and they gas themselves, so part of the conditioning for an hour is to "reset" the internal clock....a more moderate pace, but still fast....they need to understand they're in it for the long haul. And not that an hour is that long.

[jetjockey]

The good 1hr dogs I've seen go as fast as the 1/2hr dogs, but they do it for 1 hour.

[RayGubernat]

Ryan -

The NGSPA all age dogs I have seen at Wye Is. gave away very little in terms of performance to other AF all age dogs I have seen. They go full bore for the full hour...no letup. The NGSPA shooting dogs do the same, but their full bore is a little more "controlled" and their pattern is more of what you would expect from any other shooting dog.

The real difference. in my mind, between and all age dog and a shooting dog is that the shooting dog will hunt its way forward, checking out likely cover as it hunts forward. The all age dog will look up, spot a likely piece of cover and then just go there, check it out and if it is barren...will look up again, find another "objective" and then "just go there". Kinda hard to explain, but an all age dog goes from objective to objective while the shooting dog hunts its way from objective to objective. Unless you have a whole lot of the right kind of terrain and hunting cover, I for one, may not be able to tell the difference between an all age dog and a big running shooting dog. These days...there may not be that much difference in any case.

The best shooting dogs, to me, seem to start out at a blistering pace off the breakaway and then settle into a wide ranging, animated, forward searching pattern. They should maintain that same pace for the length of the stake, be it a half hour or hour. The first half hour, most well bred dogs will do. Keeping up that same pace for the second half. and looking like there is still plenty of gas in the tank...takes conditioning. The best all age dogs seem to set off at the same kind of blistering pace, but then settle in to a reaching, ground eating gait, that is deceptively fast in that it does not seem all that fast until they disappear from sight.

RayG

FWIW - I have seen a fair bunch of pretty good shooting dogs. I have not seen all that many sho' 'nuff all age dogs, in country that would allow them to do what they do best...but I have seen a few pretty good ones over the years and my comments are based on the best of those I have seen.

[SCT]

The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding. A well bred dog (pointer) shouldn't require much conditioning to run pretty hard for an hour. I'd say gait is second to genetics/breeding, but above the rest.

[Neil]

The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding. A well bred dog (pointer) shouldn't require much conditioning to run pretty hard for an hour. I'd say gait is second to genetics/breeding, but above the rest.

Gait is genetic. And part of the gait is to hit the ground lightly, no matter their size, the preponderance, jaring gait won't do it.

[SCT]

The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding. A well bred dog (pointer) shouldn't require much conditioning to run pretty hard for an hour. I'd say gait is second to genetics/breeding, but above the rest.

Gait is genetic. And part of the gait is to hit the ground lightly, no matter their size, the preponderance, jaring gait won't do it.

True Neil, but you could say that about any of the traits I stated (genetics). I've seen litter mates that have different gaits, but they had the same heart and drive, I couldn't say which would outlast the other. The best gait I've witnessed is a long, smooth stride where the dog looks like it could keep a glass of water on it's head while running. I have a female like that and she can go forever and is very fast. And, she looks like she pulls from the front end, but also has great hind end strength. She also happens to be the highest jumper (as well as climber) that I've seen and goes over a 6 foot fence with ease. I have to keep her in a "vault"!

[Neil]

Right on about the front being important in a smooth moving dog, almost as if they pull rather than push. I have a nice little, petite even, female Britt that hits the ground so hard the ground shakes. Yet a 20 pound heavier litermate glides.

Often the dog's we think fast, just take short, quick steps. Put them beside one of the sure enough fast movers or put a Garmin on them and you will see.

But speed is a small component of an All-Age dog.

You hit the whistle an a true hour dog at the 55 minute mark and they go out of sight as they did at break away, and will still be finding birds.

[DonF]

deleted as it was a stupid thing to say....

Hey Sharon, that was a stupid thing to say!

[Sharon]

LOL Thanks.

"The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding." quote SCT

Maybe that's why my girl can do an hour easily - bred from 4xCH Shady Hills Billy.

[SCT]

LOL Thanks.

"The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding." quote SCT

Maybe that's why my girl can do an hour easily - bred from 4xCH Shady Hills Billy.

That's my bet!

[ezzy333]

LOL Thanks.

"The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding." quote SCT

Maybe that's why my girl can do an hour easily - bred from 4xCH Shady Hills Billy.

That's my bet!

I wouldn't call it better breeding though there is no doubt you can affect a lot of characteristics if you get a pup from parents that excel in what you want. Breedings are different but very hard to say one is better than another. And I will still say that for this question, conditioning is a big part of it. That doesn't mean better conditioning but rather condition for what you want when you are in the field. If you want an hour dog condition for an hour. For me that means I run the dog for an hour and a half several times a week. If I want a 30 minute dog then an hour training will work on the same schedule, several times a week.

[SetterNut]

I no that with my setters that are in good shape year around, an hour full out, is no problem at all.

[SCT]

LOL Thanks.

"The difference...better breeding. Gait, heart, bottom, endurance, nutrition.....but nothing makes more of a difference than the dogs breeding." quote SCT

Maybe that's why my girl can do an hour easily - bred from 4xCH Shady Hills Billy.

That's my bet!

I wouldn't call it better breeding though there is no doubt you can affect a lot of characteristics if you get a pup from parents that excel in what you want. Breedings are different but very hard to say one is better than another. And I will still say that for this question, conditioning is a big part of it. That doesn't mean better conditioning but rather condition for what you want when you are in the field. If you want an hour dog condition for an hour. For me that means I run the dog for an hour and a half several times a week. If I want a 30 minute dog then an hour training will work on the same schedule, several times a week.

We will just have to disagree then.

[SCT]

I no that with my setters that are in good shape year around, an hour full out, is no problem at all.

My dogs, like yours, must never be out of shape, because an hour isn't much for them either.

[tobytx]

Depends on the weather but unless it's really warm being about 65, I can't imagine any dog being not being able to go either half hour or a full hour.

[SetterNut]

I no that with my setters that are in good shape year around, an hour full out, is no problem at all.

My dogs, like yours, must never be out of shape, because an hour isn't much for them either.

I have a place to run them any time I want, so we run several times a week for more than an hour.

[DGFavor]

This is one of those WWW threads where it would be helpful to know the experience/"resume" of the respondents to lend some insight to their statements. At least would be good to know that the respondents have personal saddle time launching their hounds from point A to point B in the stakes described. I get the feeling from what has ben posted that folks are applying training and hunting data to game day and IMO there is a world of difference.

[RyanDoolittle]

This is one of those WWW threads where it would be helpful to know the experience/"resume" of the respondents to lend some insight to their statements. At least would be good to know that the respondents have personal saddle time launching their hounds from point A to point B in the stakes described. I get the feeling from what has ben posted that folks are applying training and hunting data to game day and IMO there is a world of difference.

Its pretty easy to weed out the ones giving "theory" vs saddle time knowledge.

Ive been running hunting dogs my entire life but only 1 year trialing in dual sanctioned CKC & AFTCA stakes, all 20 min ( Puppy) & 30 min (Derby). So just doing some listening and learning here. Though I am getting pushed towards 1 hour stakes by some new friends. Mortlach, Big Country, and Circle are all very close. GSPCA and NGSPA have interested me.

[bhulisa]

I found this a very interesting thread. Our trials are run very differently over here, so it's of value to me to read qualified responses to very specific questions about the US trials and what is required of the dogs in different types of stakes. Thanks!

[fuzznut]

wish this site had a "like" button. Doc Favor is right, there are dogs who hunt an hour (all should be able to do that) and then there are competition 1 hr dogs. And unless and until you have been there, done that....

[shags]

This is one of those WWW threads where it would be helpful to know the experience/"resume" of the respondents to lend some insight to their statements. At least would be good to know that the respondents have personal saddle time launching their hounds from point A to point B in the stakes described. I get the feeling from what has ben posted that folks are applying training and hunting data to game day and IMO there is a world of difference.

Its pretty easy to weed out the ones giving "theory" vs saddle time knowledge.

Ive been running hunting dogs my entire life but only 1 year trialing in dual sanctioned CKC & AFTCA stakes, all 20 min ( Puppy) & 30 min (Derby). So just doing some listening and learning here. Though I am getting pushed towards 1 hour stakes by some new friends. Mortlach, Big Country, and Circle are all very close. GSPCA and NGSPA have interested me.

About all you can do is get your dog ready as best you can and enter an hour stake. You can't learn what's needed from the internet, no matter who is answering your question. It's something you have to do in order to understand your dog and where he is in gait and conditioning, and where you as a handler and your scout are in being able to help the dog. If your first effort is successful, that would be great. If it's a fail, then you know what you must work on, or where to enter your dog in the future. The worst you can do is pick him up early. You won't be the first ever do that

[RayGubernat]

wish this site had a "like" button. Doc Favor is right, there are dogs who hunt an hour (all should be able to do that) and then there are competition 1 hr dogs. And unless and until you have been there, done that....

I also agree.

I had a dog that was trained and conditioned to go for an hour IN FRONT OF A HORSE in shooting dog and (occasionally) amateur all age competition. He could run with any dog we encountered and could outrun and outlast most of them. Not bragging...just stating fact.

I gave that dog to my son for use as a foot hunting dog. For the first half dozen outings he ran the same as he was conditioned and trained and was a real handful on foot for the first hour or two, but after three or four hours on the ground he was done in.

After those first half dozen or so outings, he dialed it down somewhat and was able to go for a three or four hour hunt without running out of gas. He still runs pretty big for about a half hour(for a foot hunter), but not at the same torrid horseback field trial pace, and then he settles in and runs steady and strong for as long as the hunt lasts. If you were to see him run while foot hunting, you might well say he is going "full out"... but I know just how fast and hard he really could go, at one time.

FWIW, I have seen dogs at the Hobart Ames Open All Age that were already in condition and paced to run the three hour National Championship in a few weeks. They ran strong and ran big, but their pace was most definitely slower and more measured than the pace I was accustomed to seeing at local horseback shooting dog stakes. They could still get out of sight in a hurry, but their pace was noticeably more "controlled". I have seen several videos of the national championship running. It is harder for me to tell how hard the dogs are running from the videos.

RayG

[DonF]

I trialed a long time ago and then I ran them three time's a week. All I did was 1/2 dog's but I put them down to run for one hour. Most the people that trained at Boyce Corrals back then, ran their dog's early, Get's pretty hot there late spring through the fall. I waited a bit later and ran them for the temp to get up more. my though was if they were going to run in these temp's, they had to train in these temps. Lot's of area on the grassland around here with lot's of steep hills, I didn't road them, just ran them of horseback. To do that I kept lots of water out, no water, pretty easy to kill your dog. A dog that can take an hour of that is a cinch to go 1/2 even in most heat. Without a doubt the dog must be conditioned but the dog must also have a lot of desire. Desire drive's them.

[jetjockey]

I agree that 1hr of hunting is totally different than 1 hr of competition off horseback. Unless you've seen the difference, you don't know what it is. We only enter my dog in 1hr trials, but she is a totally different dog in competition then she is hunting. She's done both enough that she's figured out how to moderate her pace. One might actually say she's a little slow when hunting, but she can hunt all day. It goes beyond conditioning like people have said. Many strings have dogs that are conditioned exactly the same, but some excell for 1 hr, and some struggle. I think it's the intangibles. Heart, desire, and drive are what really make a 1hr dog.

[Sharon]

This is one of those WWW threads where it would be helpful to know the experience/"resume" of the respondents to lend some insight to their statements. At least would be good to know that the respondents have personal saddle time launching their hounds from point A to point B in the stakes described. I get the feeling from what has ben posted that folks are applying training and hunting data to game day and IMO there is a world of difference.

Good point.

I tried to be clear:

"I must be missing something or have an exceptional dog. My setter went full out for an hour, no difference between a half hour and an hour....rests at bird points.... in walking stakes not horseback.( don't participate now in trials.)" quote Sharon

No comparison to Shadow Oaks Bo etc running an hour off horseback.

[Elkhunter]

Favor make some good points! I have ran in a few hour CH's, even placed in a few. And getting a hound ready for game day is a helluva lot different than hunting for an hour! I road three times a week for 1.5 hours and train off horseback 5-6 days too get ready. Those that are not ready make themselves known quickly!