Early retriever training

[GrouseChaser7]

I have a lab who is about 13-14 weeks old. I am wondering what order people go through when teaching retrieving at this age. We started with small bumpers, and he generally brings them back, but if he doesn't I certainly dont put any pressure on him, and have been able to get it back by running the other way. I have also been letting him chase clip wing pigeons as well since he was around 9 weeks. He eventually grabs a hold of them and carries them around. He has been very gentile with them for the most part, but never wants to bring them back (no surprise there). That hasnt been a problem until recently because now he can easily out-run me and running the other way to get him to bring it close doesnt work anymore. I have many questions, but one of them is should I be using a retrieving corridor or check cord whenever working with birds so I can always get them back, and he doesnt develop bad habits (hard mouth being one)?? I obviously dont want to chase him or have it be a negative experience at all. He has gotten really birdy over the last few weeks, and I just want to keep him on the right path. Thanks!

[Eric]

Are you following any particular training program

[Soarer31]

At that age I'd be using the corridor method then the CC on bumpers only ,when the dog is proficient at retrieving to hand... then dead birds , would not be using live game at that age that's for sure ,to many things can go wrong

[pato y codoniz]

I'd really recommend following a training program. There are many excellent programs that give proven results.

... but since you asked...

I'm of the opinion that this about the age that they need to learn that come/here is a command means "get back here now, quickly, and in the most direct line possible" and that it is not a request. So not only do you need to maintain corrective ability via check cord, it should be used as active guidance, along with your positive verbal encouragement and inviting body language, for pace, line, and immediacy of response to command.

[GrouseChaser7]

Are you following any particular training program

Not exactly. I have been following The Labrador Shooting Dog by Mike Gould, as well as a couple of Bill Tarrant's books. Both guys preach more natural methods, although I will be using an e-collar to some degree.

[GrouseChaser7]

At that age I'd be using the corridor method then the CC on bumpers only ,when the dog is proficient at retrieving to hand... then dead birds , would not be using live game at that age that's for sure ,to many things can go wrong

So, you don't think it's not a good idea to get him flushing pigeons or fetching lock wings at this point? I have a DVD by George Hickox where he uses the corridor to fetch with a lock wing pigeon with a young dog pre FF. I thought about the possibility of him developing hard mouth if he digs into a live bird too soon but he has been gentile with them so I thought I was doing a good thing by getting him birdy...Thanks for the advice!!!

[EvanG]

Use a retriever puppy program that prepares you pup for a formal training program. The Smartwork Puppy Program DVD is designed for working retriever pups. www.evan-graham.net

Do it right the first time.

EvanG

[GrouseChaser7]

Use a retriever puppy program that prepares you pup for a formal training program. The Smartwork Puppy Program DVD is designed for working retriever pups. http://www.evan-graham.net

Do it right the first time.

EvanG

Thanks. Is the puppy DVD available on its own, or do I have to buy the whole package?

[gonehuntin']

I would never, ever, take a pup off live birds UNLESS he started eating them. The dog is going to be a bird dog, not a bumper dog. Key is, keep him on a nylon 1/8" long cord so you can GENTLY reel him in to you with the bird and not let him play with it. With a pup the most important things you can do is build confidence on land and water, make him BIRDY, socialize him heavily, and teach him NO. No controls a ton of unwanted behaviour.

I also work on a pup's memory. I throw them a LOT of doubles and tripples to build memory, always on a long cord or rope so I can guide them not to switch.

Don't create any bad habits now that will have to be corrected later. Do it right from the start.

[Eric]

Thanks. Is the puppy DVD available on its own, or do I have to buy the whole package?

All of EvanG's material is available ala carte. But each one of the series is an extension of the previous one.

[Soarer31]

At that age I'd be using the corridor method then the CC on bumpers only ,when the dog is proficient at retrieving to hand... then dead birds , would not be using live game at that age that's for sure ,to many things can go wrong

So, you don't think it's not a good idea to get him flushing pigeons or fetching lock wings at this point? I have a DVD by George Hickox where he uses the corridor to fetch with a lock wing pigeon with a young dog pre FF. I thought about the possibility of him developing hard mouth if he digs into a live bird too soon but he has been gentile with them so I thought I was doing a good thing by getting him birdy...Thanks for the advice!!![/quote)

No I don't mate,
I don't want to be correcting a young dog in early retriever training with a live bird in its mouth, only with bumpers
No matter how light the correction may seem you don't want the dog to associate live birds with a correction

Thought your post was about "early retriever training ", geting a dog "birdy" and flushing pigeons has nothing to do with "early retriever training
Cheers

[Soarer31]

I would never, ever, take a pup off live birds UNLESS he started eating them. The dog is going to be a bird dog, not a bumper dog. Key is, keep him on a nylon 1/8" long cord so you can GENTLY reel him in to you with the bird and not let him play with it. With a pup the most important things you can do is build confidence on land and water, make him BIRDY, socialize him heavily, and teach him NO. No controls a ton of unwanted behaviour.

I also work on a pup's memory. I throw them a LOT of doubles and tripples to build memory, always on a long cord or rope so I can guide them not to switch.

Don't create any bad habits now that will have to be corrected later. Do it right from the start.

So you start training young dogs to retrieve useing live birds??

[pato y codoniz]

At that age I'd be using the corridor method then the CC on bumpers only ,when the dog is proficient at retrieving to hand... then dead birds , would not be using live game at that age that's for sure ,to many things can go wrong

So, you don't think it's not a good idea to get him flushing pigeons or fetching lock wings at this point? I have a DVD by George Hickox where he uses the corridor to fetch with a lock wing pigeon with a young dog pre FF. I thought about the possibility of him developing hard mouth if he digs into a live bird too soon but he has been gentile with them so I thought I was doing a good thing by getting him birdy...Thanks for the advice!!![/quote)

No I don't mate,
I don't want to be correcting a young dog in early retriever training with a live bird in its mouth, only with bumpers
No matter how light the correction may seem you don't want the dog to associate live birds with a correction

Thought your post was about "early retriever training ", geting a dog "birdy" and flushing pigeons has nothing to do with "early retriever training
Cheers

Agreed, bumpers are for developing a retriever. Live birds only come out when the behavior's foundation is well currd.

[gonehuntin']

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

[GrouseChaser7]

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

So are you disagreeing with the above comment that I should stop working him with live birds until he is better trained on bumpers??

[pato y codoniz]

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

So are you disagreeing with the above comment that I should stop working him with live birds until he is better trained on bumpers??

If you're teaching, which means there will be corrections it should be with the bumpers. You never want to have to correct a retriever when working with a live bird.

If the dog has mastered a concept, the capstone is with a live bird.

So the dog will be seeing live birds all through his development into a nonslip retriever but only on already learned and perfected behaviors.

[gonehuntin']

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

So are you disagreeing with the above comment that I should stop working him with live birds until he is better trained on bumpers??

Most definitely. Just keep him under control. Every trainer I have EVER known, lets pups chase a jillion clip wings. No formal training with them, all play. Clip wings flopping in the yard, on the surface of the water, etc. I work them on both but most important to me is an intense desire for birds. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all dog's have it; they don't.

Worse thing I've worked with is a pup that is perfectly obedience trained with no desire and the independence taken out of him. Hard dog's to work with.

[pato y codoniz]

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

So are you disagreeing with the above comment that I should stop working him with live birds until he is better trained on bumpers??

Most definitely. Just keep him under control. Every trainer I have EVER known, lets pups chase a jillion clip wings. No formal training with them, all play. Clip wings flopping in the yard, on the surface of the water, etc. I work them on both but most important to me is an intense desire for birds. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all dog's have it; they don't.

Worse thing I've worked with is a pup that is perfectly obedience trained with no desire and the independence taken out of him. Hard dog's to work with.

How do you propose keeping a puppy "under control", more that likely with his bird in his mouth, and not introduce a negative association?

If you're going to let a puppy play with clip winged birds and I'm not opposed to that at all, all you do is let them play. No introduction of commands that would require correction upon failure. No keeping them under control. No training.

[EvanG]

Use a retriever puppy program that prepares you pup for a formal training program. The Smartwork Puppy Program DVD is designed for working retriever pups. http://www.evan-graham.net

Do it right the first time.

EvanG

Thanks. Is the puppy DVD available on its own, or do I have to buy the whole package?

Yes, it's sold individually.

EvanG

[GrouseChaser7]

From the time they will pick up a clip wing quail, six weeks on. As soon as they are handling quail, they go on pigeons. They will not go on ducks until 6-7 months. You don't want them getting bitten and bird shy. Dog's make their living retrieving birds not bumpers and by reverting to birds from bumpers in advanced training, they can be sweetened up at any time. Live birds are a trainers ace in the hole.

The most difficult young dog's a trainers gets in for training a re those that are impeccably obedience trained but have little interest in birds. You earn your money with them. Give me the bird crazy, wild outlaw any day and I'll make a good dog out of him in far less time than I will the other pup.

So are you disagreeing with the above comment that I should stop working him with live birds until he is better trained on bumpers??

Most definitely. Just keep him under control. Every trainer I have EVER known, lets pups chase a jillion clip wings. No formal training with them, all play. Clip wings flopping in the yard, on the surface of the water, etc. I work them on both but most important to me is an intense desire for birds. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all dog's have it; they don't.

Worse thing I've worked with is a pup that is perfectly obedience trained with no desire and the independence taken out of him. Hard dog's to work with.

See that makes total sense to me. After reading Mike Gould and Bill tarrants books, I was of the same mindset. I didnt realize that so many people disagree. I do understand the other rational, but I think that, as you said, as long as they're not crushing or eating the them, birds should be the center of their universe! I would think that FF later on will take care of any mouth issues anyway...