Puppy Buyers
Puppy Buyers
I've been breeding Field Bred Springers for about 28 years now... Over the years we've probably had 50 to 60 litters. I get some odd requests at times, as you might imagine. Recently I was contacted by a couple looking for a liver/white female. I replied and said I probably would have a liver/white female available when I breed again next spring. I explained that I already had several deposits for the spring, but more than likely there would be a liver/white female available. The couple replied back and asked if they reserved a pup and didn't like the looks of it when they came to pick it up could they be moved up to first on a list for the following year. I asked specifically what they were looking for and the husband replied that his wife had a certain coloring and head shape in mind and that if she didn't see what she was looking for in the pups we had available could they pass and put the deposit toward a pup from a future litter. There were no questions about our dogs' hunting drive, marking ability, mouth, temperament, health, etc..............the kind of questions I'm used to receiving. I replied back and said I couldn't agree to what they were requesting and suggested they might be more comfortable working with another breeder and said that quite honestly I was very reluctant to accept a deposit when the coloring and the shape of a pup's head were the main criteria in selecting a pup. I tried to be tactful, but they were upset with my reply and said they were sure I'd received many requests for pups based on cuteness...... At that point I just wished them good luck in their search and chalked it up to experience.... They are out there.
Re: Puppy Buyers
A friend of mine who hunts, is looking for a DD pup. When I tell him about upcoming litters, all he cares to look at is pics of the parents. Basically, he wants the Draht beard and that's it. Makes no sense to me.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Montana,
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.
Best wished
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.
Best wished
Re: Puppy Buyers
LOL Hilarious! Congrats on putting values before money.Montana wrote:I've been breeding Field Bred Springers for about 28 years now... Over the years we've probably had 50 to 60 litters. I get some odd requests at times, as you might imagine. Recently I was contacted by a couple looking for a liver/white female. I replied and said I probably would have a liver/white female available when I breed again next spring. I explained that I already had several deposits for the spring, but more than likely there would be a liver/white female available. The couple replied back and asked if they reserved a pup and didn't like the looks of it when they came to pick it up could they be moved up to first on a list for the following year. I asked specifically what they were looking for and the husband replied that his wife had a certain coloring and head shape in mind and that if she didn't see what she was looking for in the pups we had available could they pass and put the deposit toward a pup from a future litter. There were no questions about our dogs' hunting drive, marking ability, mouth, temperament, health, etc..............the kind of questions I'm used to receiving. I replied back and said I couldn't agree to what they were requesting and suggested they might be more comfortable working with another breeder and said that quite honestly I was very reluctant to accept a deposit when the coloring and the shape of a pup's head were the main criteria in selecting a pup. I tried to be tactful, but they were upset with my reply and said they were sure I'd received many requests for pups based on cuteness...... At that point I just wished them good luck in their search and chalked it up to experience.... They are out there.
-
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
- Location: Northern Minnesota
Re: Puppy Buyers
I'm interested in the other odd requests. I've always felt the questions I've asked (as a buyer) are standard so it may be entertaining to hear about the weirdos of the world.
Puppy Buyers
Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I do put a lot of stock in conformation and looks. Not above all else but it determines whether I pull the trigger or not. Just hear me out. When choosing a pup I usually start by looking for breeders that have dual championships as their goal. Then I narrow that down based on health, drive, and bidability(sp) in that order. But when it comes to actually choosing the individual pup from that litter I usually go with the markings I like best. I mean honestly is there anyone out there that can pick the best pup from a litter at 7 weeks of age? Opinions welcome...fire way.
Re: Puppy Buyers
This was my thought also. Everybody makes their final choice by something that they like. If they have done a good job of choosing the litter and appear to be good owners, I could not care less how they make their final choice. A good share of family/ hunting dog buyers pick by gender and color. I just tell them it really limits their choices......CJGrommet wrote:Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I do put a lot of stock in conformation and looks. Not above all else but it determines whether I pull the trigger or not. Just hear me out. When choosing a pup I usually start by looking for breeders that have dual championships as their goal. Then I narrow that down based on health, drive, and bidability(sp) in that order. But when it comes to actually choosing the individual pup from that litter I usually go with the markings I like best. I mean honestly is there anyone out there that can pick the best pup from a litter at 7 weeks of age? Opinions welcome...fire way.
- mountaindogs
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
- Location: TN
Re: Puppy Buyers
A few years ago I had a GSP litter heavily DC bred. Sire was a DC. Also solid liver. All my puppy buyers had opinions on wanting a solid or ticked puppy so I let choose gender and solid or ticked when placing deposits. Then as they watched the puppies grow they all changed their minds all over the place. Changed gender to get solid, changed to ticked because first out of the box, changed back because pointing style was prettier. Worked out, with everyone happy, but it was :roll: :roll:
I have had all kinds of requests like solid head, big blaze, bright ticked, mostly white, solid tail, white tail etc... You pick in order of deposit. I will give advice and strong council if you have particular plans like showing or trials or know you will only hunt a few times a year, but I will not choose puppies for people. So much changes and most people, like the litter mentioned above end up loving whatever color they thought they didn't want.
When I bought my lab I wanted a yellow female. Black male was all he had available and I really wanted this breeding. I decided to buy the right dog and not the color gender. He is AMAZING. Could not have picked a better suited dog for us!!
This year I have Black & White GSP ticked soon to be bred to a Liver & White. Seriously tempted to give no color or gender preference at all, just pick in deposit order, unless buying a competition show puppy. I would give Liver and white preference for that I suppose on separate contract. The puppy placing part is the hardest part. Even well intentioned people can be tough about colors until the puppies are about 5-6 weeks and then everyone see the play fetch and the puppy points and starts to see what really matters.
I have had all kinds of requests like solid head, big blaze, bright ticked, mostly white, solid tail, white tail etc... You pick in order of deposit. I will give advice and strong council if you have particular plans like showing or trials or know you will only hunt a few times a year, but I will not choose puppies for people. So much changes and most people, like the litter mentioned above end up loving whatever color they thought they didn't want.
When I bought my lab I wanted a yellow female. Black male was all he had available and I really wanted this breeding. I decided to buy the right dog and not the color gender. He is AMAZING. Could not have picked a better suited dog for us!!
This year I have Black & White GSP ticked soon to be bred to a Liver & White. Seriously tempted to give no color or gender preference at all, just pick in deposit order, unless buying a competition show puppy. I would give Liver and white preference for that I suppose on separate contract. The puppy placing part is the hardest part. Even well intentioned people can be tough about colors until the puppies are about 5-6 weeks and then everyone see the play fetch and the puppy points and starts to see what really matters.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Grommet wrote:Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I do put a lot of stock in conformation and looks. Not above all else but it determines whether I pull the trigger or not. Just hear me out. When choosing a pup I usually start by looking for breeders that have dual championships as their goal. Then I narrow that down based on health, drive, and bidability(sp) in that order. But when it comes to actually choosing the individual pup from that litter I usually go with the markings I like best. I mean honestly is there anyone out there that can pick the best pup from a litter at 7 weeks of age? Opinions welcome...fire way.
Springers are a little different than most other breeds as their hasn't been a dual champion since 1938 and probably never will be. Springers from Show Lines have become so different from Field lines that they probably should be considered separate breeds, but if that were to happen it wouldn't be long before someone would want to start showing dogs from field lines.
Conformation is important..... A dog has to be built correctly to perform in the field, obviously. I didn't mean to imply conformation was irrelevant... In the story I shared I think these people could have cared less whether a dog was built properly or not....they (well the wife anyways) were only concerned with coloring and the shape of the head.
Picking the "best" pup in a litter is pretty much impossible as far as I'm concerned. I tell people to look at the parents and grandparents. Pups will usually exhibit what you see in those 6 dogs in most respects. The "Pick of the Litter" is a myth.
I've bought a dozen or so pups over the past 40 plus years. I've only gone to a breeder's facility and picked out a pup from a litter one time and that was back in 1973. All others were bought via phone conversations and in more recent years via the internet. I've always told the breeder that I wanted a physically sound pup and all else being equal, I like a dog with a lot of white. That's about it. I like for the breeder to pick a pup for me. Of course I know the different dogs and bloodlines in the breed and know which breeders are reputable...
Re: Puppy Buyers
I don't get very many odd requests. The vast majority of people who contact me ask questions that are relevant and have requests that make sense, but I did have one lady who called me up and wanted a puppy with freckles on its nose. That was her only criteria. She said her old dog had freckles on her nose and she wanted a puppy just like her old dog. I do get quite a few people looking for a dog that looked like a dog they grew up with.mnaj_springer wrote:I'm interested in the other odd requests. I've always felt the questions I've asked (as a buyer) are standard so it may be entertaining to hear about the weirdos of the world.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I agree. If I am going to feed it I want it to look nice and that means we all have different opinions on what looks nice.Grommet wrote:Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I do put a lot of stock in conformation and looks. Not above all else but it determines whether I pull the trigger or not. Just hear me out. When choosing a pup I usually start by looking for breeders that have dual championships as their goal. Then I narrow that down based on health, drive, and bidability(sp) in that order. But when it comes to actually choosing the individual pup from that litter I usually go with the markings I like best. I mean honestly is there anyone out there that can pick the best pup from a litter at 7 weeks of age? Opinions welcome...fire way.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I just want my pup to read reasonably well and to drive safely.
-
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:11 pm
- Location: North Idaho
Re: Puppy Buyers
In the case of someone who only wanted particular markings and asked no questions about athletic ability, I would have given them the names of a couple of different show breeders, where the markings are most likely to be uniform and the heads all look a lot alike.
My opinion is that pet dog families should not buy working line dogs. Working dogs have too much energy for the average family and the pup risks being disposed of because it is too much to handle. We loved our working English Springer. He was whelped fully trained and had a lovely temperament, but he never stopped moving. If nothing else was going on, he would trot around in circles. Many pet families can not tolerate that energy level.
I care a lot what a pup looks like, although color doesn't enter into it. I want to see a lot of photos of the parents and preferably the grandparents also, because that will give me a good idea of what the pups might look like and what conformation flaws might show up in the pup. Then I want to see performance titles because that gives some hope that the pup might have inherited the right instincts. I want the pedigree to be full of quality because quality begets quality.
As for selling pups... well, I've bred Scottish Deerhounds, where the buyers got their choice of grey brindle or grey brindle and all they were hoping for was a well bred and well raised puppy. I've also bred Papillons where buyers might have a color preference but they took what they could get and were happy with it. Then it turned out that my lazy klutzy imported dog was a premiere sire of winning agility dogs, and those buyers didn't care what color, what gender, or what size. They wanted an athlete with a trainable temperament with hopes of a MACH title like his other offspring were winning.
My opinion is that pet dog families should not buy working line dogs. Working dogs have too much energy for the average family and the pup risks being disposed of because it is too much to handle. We loved our working English Springer. He was whelped fully trained and had a lovely temperament, but he never stopped moving. If nothing else was going on, he would trot around in circles. Many pet families can not tolerate that energy level.
I care a lot what a pup looks like, although color doesn't enter into it. I want to see a lot of photos of the parents and preferably the grandparents also, because that will give me a good idea of what the pups might look like and what conformation flaws might show up in the pup. Then I want to see performance titles because that gives some hope that the pup might have inherited the right instincts. I want the pedigree to be full of quality because quality begets quality.
As for selling pups... well, I've bred Scottish Deerhounds, where the buyers got their choice of grey brindle or grey brindle and all they were hoping for was a well bred and well raised puppy. I've also bred Papillons where buyers might have a color preference but they took what they could get and were happy with it. Then it turned out that my lazy klutzy imported dog was a premiere sire of winning agility dogs, and those buyers didn't care what color, what gender, or what size. They wanted an athlete with a trainable temperament with hopes of a MACH title like his other offspring were winning.
- Gordon Guy
- Rank: 4X Champion
- Posts: 632
- Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:07 pm
- Location: Boise Idaho
Re: Puppy Buyers
Pick the parents, and grand parents. With all else being equal (What can you really tell about a 7 week old puppy) go for the pup with the best eye appeal. No use hunting with an ugly dog...
We all have our own way of making a decision.
We all have our own way of making a decision.
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Montana , the original poster, wasn't saying that conformation/what you like wasn't important. He was saying that isn't ALL there is involved in choosing a pup. His prospective buyers asked NO questions about anything but looks.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I had a guy a couple years back that only wanted a pup with a solid black head because it was "neat". I told him he should probably look else where. I have bought my share of pups. I decide on the litter then gender then I pick out which one I like the look/temperament of best.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I was the original poster.Sharon wrote:Montana , the original poster, wasn't saying that conformation/what you like wasn't important. He was saying that isn't ALL there is involved in choosing a pup. His prospective buyers asked NO questions about anything but looks.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I do think at 7-8 weeks you an see the more independent, curious pup as opposed to the shy, hanging back pup. That influences my choice.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I know. LOL grammatical introductory phrase not a post sent to you. " Montana , the original poster, ................Montana wrote:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sharon wrote:Montana , the original poster, wasn't saying that conformation/what you like wasn't important. He was saying that isn't ALL there is involved in choosing a pup. His prospective buyers asked NO questions about anything but looks.
I was the original poster.
Re: Puppy Buyers
I've seen it happen. People pay top dollar for "PICK OF THE LITTER" and NEVER do they choose "PICK OF THE LITTER" they simply choose what they want, sex, color, etc.
Picking a pup. Throw a live pigeon and see which pup gets there first. Did any run in the wrong direction and hide? Watch them at feeding time, which one stands in the middle of the bowel like king of the mountain?
I have to have beautiful dogs, because I love to watch them in the field and in the home. Tail set and eyes are important to me. Look at the parents. What you see is what you get, hopefully:-)
Picking a pup. Throw a live pigeon and see which pup gets there first. Did any run in the wrong direction and hide? Watch them at feeding time, which one stands in the middle of the bowel like king of the mountain?
I have to have beautiful dogs, because I love to watch them in the field and in the home. Tail set and eyes are important to me. Look at the parents. What you see is what you get, hopefully:-)
Re: Puppy Buyers
According to most of the old trainers, they have had more FC from the pup that no one wants than from any other pick.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ezzy333 wrote:According to most of the old trainers, they have had more FC from the pup that no one wants than from any other pick.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Oh, and I want him to wipe his feet when he comes into the house.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Of course "looks" make a difference to me, but when it comes to certain things, like hunting dogs, that is on the "bottom of the list". The fact that they said nothing about any hunting traits would be worrisome, but to play devil's advocate, perhaps they already knew that the pups you offer had all those traits and simply took it for granted and didn't mention it??
As a breeder it is your right to sell to whoever you want....so IMO, if you are content with your decision, then YES, you did the right thing.
As a breeder it is your right to sell to whoever you want....so IMO, if you are content with your decision, then YES, you did the right thing.
Re: Puppy Buyers
If you have done your homework then looks, size, and ability shouldn't be a question. Study parents, grand parents, and previous litters and those questions should have been answered.
Re: Puppy Buyers
DEfinately true for one of my dogs. All were sold before they were born , but the "picker" didn't want the runt. I kept here and she is a firecracker - no Championships(my fault) but Walking Derby Dog of the Year.ezzy333 wrote:According to most of the old trainers, they have had more FC from the pup that no one wants than from any other pick.
Re: Puppy Buyers
A new born baby never looks like the student who has just graduated from University.
An 8 week old pup is the same. What you do with it won't change the colour but everything else is nurture ,environment and training .
An 8 week old pup is the same. What you do with it won't change the colour but everything else is nurture ,environment and training .
Re: Puppy Buyers
They wanted a pet. There's nothing wrong with that. Show-bred Springers are very attractive and make good pets if treated properly. A breed split is frequently a good thing if people understand what they want and don't get led astray by breeders promising what the dog can't provide.Montana wrote:I've been breeding Field Bred Springers for about 28 years now... There were no questions about our dogs' hunting drive, marking ability, mouth, temperament, health, etc..............the kind of questions I'm used to receiving. the coloring and the shape of a pup's head were the main criteria in selecting a pup. they ...said they were sure I'd received many requests for pups based on cuteness......
-
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:11 pm
- Location: North Idaho
Re: Puppy Buyers
To me, temperament is the most important. However, conformation is important and bad conformation will make me pass on a pup. Conformation affects how they go and how sound they will remain. A dog with a good shoulder assembly will move with less effort and be faster. Flat splayed feet might break down and are at more risk of broken toes. Cow hocks have more risk of breaking down. Flat ribs means less air and a dog has to be able to breathe if he is going to work hard. As for heads... well, life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog.Sharon wrote:I do think at 7-8 weeks you an see the more independent, curious pup as opposed to the shy, hanging back pup. That influences my choice.
I want clean movement and no eye faults. I don't want to have to pay for surgery before the pup is 6 months old. I want a correct texture to the coat, not because of appearance but because I don't want to spend hours picking out burrs.
I agree with OP, though, anyone who must have the exact markings and an exact head shape is being mighty picky when they are buying a performance dog.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Very good point about conformation. You definitely see more in a pup than I have. Going to think on that. Thanks.
Re: Puppy Buyers
He is absolutely right. That is why I put so much importance on Dual Champions. I want them correct and pretty, the first makes them efficient and the later makes them look good doing it. Plus it takes no more to feed a good looking one.Sharon wrote:Very good point about conformation. You definitely see more in a pup than I have. Going to think on that. Thanks.
-
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
- Location: Northern Minnesota
Re: Puppy Buyers
But the dual champion criteria cannot apply to springers. The split is too vast. The standard has moved too far away from function. So conformation in a FBESS must be assessed in other ways, rather than a by a judge who has never stepped into a pheasant field.ezzy333 wrote:He is absolutely right. That is why I put so much importance on Dual Champions. I want them correct and pretty, the first makes them efficient and the later makes them look good doing it. Plus it takes no more to feed a good looking one.Sharon wrote:Very good point about conformation. You definitely see more in a pup than I have. Going to think on that. Thanks.
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:35 pm
- Location: West central MN
Re: Puppy Buyers
Sounds to me like these people were in my boat. I want a GSP and care about hunting. I couldn't care what it looked like for the most part. My criteria was spending my money in Minnesota, good bloodlines, and a breeder that cares. However my wife gave the OK for a new pup as long as it was all black or all liver. She hates the looks of all the rest. So I did my homework and talked to about 4 or 5 local breeders. 2 of the 4 or 5 understood my situation. The others thought like most breeders here....my dogs are the best and I have no time for you if you want to pick by color. For some reason after they told me this and I asked them if he came to me to buy a new truck (not an actual truck salesman) and I had 5 of the same trucks with the exact options he wanted but not a red one and said your going to take the black one and be happy and shouldn't care about color. I said you would tell me to get £€%#^|$&. I haven't seen arrogance like this since buying a sub compact tractor and dealing with a John Deere dealer.
Puppy Buyers
We got any color you like as long as it's green...FrankRizzo wrote:Sounds to me like these people were in my boat. I want a GSP and care about hunting. I couldn't care what it looked like for the most part. My criteria was spending my money in Minnesota, good bloodlines, and a breeder that cares. However my wife gave the OK for a new pup as long as it was all black or all liver. She hates the looks of all the rest. So I did my homework and talked to about 4 or 5 local breeders. 2 of the 4 or 5 understood my situation. The others thought like most breeders here....my dogs are the best and I have no time for you if you want to pick by color. For some reason after they told me this and I asked them if he came to me to buy a new truck (not an actual truck salesman) and I had 5 of the same trucks with the exact options he wanted but not a red one and said your going to take the black one and be happy and shouldn't care about color. I said you would tell me to get £€%#^|$&. I haven't seen arrogance like this since buying a sub compact tractor and dealing with a John Deere dealer.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Actually, they didn't want just a pet. They said they'd hunted NE Montana every year for the past 30 years.... It was the wife who was calling the shots on the coloring and shape of the head.Steve007 wrote:They wanted a pet. There's nothing wrong with that. Show-bred Springers are very attractive and make good pets if treated properly. A breed split is frequently a good thing if people understand what they want and don't get led astray by breeders promising what the dog can't provide.Montana wrote:I've been breeding Field Bred Springers for about 28 years now... There were no questions about our dogs' hunting drive, marking ability, mouth, temperament, health, etc..............the kind of questions I'm used to receiving. the coloring and the shape of a pup's head were the main criteria in selecting a pup. they ...said they were sure I'd received many requests for pups based on cuteness......
Show Bred Springers: My experience is that some can be pretty nasty and aggressive. I've never seen that in a field bred Springer. A fellow I know who at one time was trying to produce the next dual champion (he didn't succeed, obviously) did a ton of research on "Springer Rage" when that was a hot topic. He traced the problem back to what he called "Eastern Show Lines"...
Re: Puppy Buyers
To be punctilious, what you (correctly) used was an "appositive phrase" as opposed to an introductory phrase.Sharon wrote:I know. LOL grammatical introductory phrase not a post sent to you. " Montana , the original poster, ................Montana wrote:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sharon wrote:Montana , the original poster, wasn't saying that conformation/what you like wasn't important. He was saying that isn't ALL there is involved in choosing a pup. His prospective buyers asked NO questions about anything but looks.
I was the original poster.
Bill
-
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:11 pm
- Location: North Idaho
Re: Puppy Buyers
Field Springers and show Springers are very different, but it is still very possible for a field bred Springer to have excellent conformation and a handsome face. Conformation is important in a dog who is going to lope around for hours on end. Working dogs should be built in a way to maximize their efficiency and minimize possibility of injury. Springers work hard and go through some difficult brush. They deserve to have good feet, hocks well let down, and a decent shoulder. They have big hearts and give a lot and deserve to be born free from the PRA gene, so that they can continue to work for years and not break the hearts of the children in the family.mnaj_springer wrote:.......But the dual champion criteria cannot apply to springers. The split is too vast. The standard has moved too far away from function. So conformation in a FBESS must be assessed in other ways, rather than a by a judge who has never stepped into a pheasant field.
It's important how many pheasants the sire found and brought to hand, but that is a long ways from being the only criteria to do a breeding.
No, a show judge does not evaluate a field Springer but here is no reason for the owner of a Springer to not learn what is good conformation and why, before he breeds a litter, and not a bad idea to learn a bit about conformation before buying a pup, especially if you are hoping that pup will work hard for many years.
-
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
- Location: Northern Minnesota
Re: Puppy Buyers
Just to be clear (because I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not), I'm not saying not field bred springers shouldn't have good conformation. I'm saying the conformation of a field-bred springer is different than that of a show bred springer. I agree a hunting dog should be efficient in its movements and they need to be well put together as to maintain long-term muscle and joint health, especially with the rigorous work a hunting dog does. And clearly just getting birds to hand isn't the only criteria for a breeding, and I doubt anyone here would suggest that.oregon woodsmoke wrote:Field Springers and show Springers are very different, but it is still very possible for a field bred Springer to have excellent conformation and a handsome face. Conformation is important in a dog who is going to lope around for hours on end. Working dogs should be built in a way to maximize their efficiency and minimize possibility of injury. Springers work hard and go through some difficult brush. They deserve to have good feet, hocks well let down, and a decent shoulder. They have big hearts and give a lot and deserve to be born free from the PRA gene, so that they can continue to work for years and not break the hearts of the children in the family.mnaj_springer wrote:.......But the dual champion criteria cannot apply to springers. The split is too vast. The standard has moved too far away from function. So conformation in a FBESS must be assessed in other ways, rather than a by a judge who has never stepped into a pheasant field.
It's important how many pheasants the sire found and brought to hand, but that is a long ways from being the only criteria to do a breeding.
No, a show judge does not evaluate a field Springer but here is no reason for the owner of a Springer to not learn what is good conformation and why, before he breeds a litter, and not a bad idea to learn a bit about conformation before buying a pup, especially if you are hoping that pup will work hard for many years.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Playing Devils advocate...When I went to see the breeder for my dog, I wanted to meet the parents, which I did. I had already talked to parents of previous litters. I had met one of them out and about. I didn't get to see them hunt but the owner was enthusiastic about them and had run his dog in NA and it had done well.
So, by the time I went to see the parents, I wanted to talk to the breeder a little bit, but was as much interested in color and coat as anything else. I wanted a black male GWP, with a blockier snout (the bitch had a pointy-ish muzzle I wasn't enamored with.) I was willing to give on two of the three. Looking at puppy pictures, I didn't realize how round his head was, and how much its become blockier in the last 10 weeks we've had him.
So, by the time I went to see the parents, I wanted to talk to the breeder a little bit, but was as much interested in color and coat as anything else. I wanted a black male GWP, with a blockier snout (the bitch had a pointy-ish muzzle I wasn't enamored with.) I was willing to give on two of the three. Looking at puppy pictures, I didn't realize how round his head was, and how much its become blockier in the last 10 weeks we've had him.
Re: Puppy Buyers
Presumably, the VDD breeding program takes care of most of his concerns about hunting ability. And I have seen at least two DDs that, at a year old, are indistinguishable from GSP's at 5 feet.randomnut wrote:A friend of mine who hunts, is looking for a DD pup. When I tell him about upcoming litters, all he cares to look at is pics of the parents. Basically, he wants the Draht beard and that's it. Makes no sense to me.